WoW Rookie: Getting into Firelands PUGs
by Michael Gray 
Sep 22nd 2011 at 4:00PM
Chris wrote in to me with this question:
While this level of raiding is a bit beyond the standard rookie level, it's definitely a problem that many rookies face while trying to get into raiding. I wanted to cover it here instead of having someone field it in Ready Check, because I think this is the kind of information and strategy that will be important to new players trying to get into progression.I haven't been able to get into successful Firelands raid groups very often, because I only have a 5/7 achievement on Blackrock, where almost everyone either demands a 6/7 achievement or gives up after repeated wipes. On my old server, Stormscale, it was even worse -- Firelands PUGs were practically non-existent. No successful raiding guild seems to have space for a mage, and when I stepped in as leader for the second raid group in my current guild, people stopped showing up!How can I find a guild or PUG that'll take me as I am, and where I'll have a decent chance of killing Domo and Rag? I don't want to switch to playing a tank or healer as my main, since it'd put me back to square one in both skill and gear.
(Note that I don't mean imply that Chris is new or anything like that; sounds like he's totally on the good part of the curve. But still, this is good advice for rookies.)
Woes of DPS
One of Chris's first problems is obvious: He's a mage. (Cue all you warlocks making jokes.) In the vast sea of players looking for raids and dungeons, DPS is the vast majority. Like, whoah. It's so rare that people can't find DPS to fill out a raid that when a lack does happen, the instance becomes a joke, screenshots are shared to sites like Reddit, and casual bystanders lean back and go "whoah."
While it sounds as if Chris wants to stick with his mage, all you rookies or casuals hoping to PUG into raids should note the problem. You have much, much better chances of getting invited to a PUG or a guild group if you're a tank or healer. Keep a DPS spec in your toolbox, of course, but tank or healer is the way to go.
When a PUG leader is building a raid, he can usually afford to be incredibly selective when it comes to DPS characters. And that leader must be selective. Usually, a PUG is forced to accept any tank or healer it can get, because tanks and healers are in short supply. If a tank or healer is willing to raid, chances are some enterprising guild has snapped them up already.
In order to make sure the PUG has a high chance of success, the leader is forced to pick only the absolute best DPS to fill out the raid. (He might even need to overcome some shortcomings in the tank and healer department.) The leader will look for as many ringers as he can get -- people who have demonstrated their skill and can put out huge DPS numbers.
It sucks to be DPS in this case, but it's the reality of the situation.
Take me as I am
Chris's question boils down to "How can I get a group without changing classes?" He actually used the phrase "take me as I am."
Thing is, if you're trying to get a group without picking up additional gear or achievements, which represents the literal "as I am," your only option is to keep trying and hope to get lucky. Try to talk up the PUG leaders you see, make friends, and network. Hopefully, these folks will see your name in a friendly way, over and over. Eventually, you'll get drafted and rock on to success.
If we're not going for the literal "take me as I am" route, then I would suggest taking a bit of time and going to get the achievements you're missing. T11 content is easy now on normal mode. Guild groups do it to help bootstrap new players into current content, and PUGs can still get decent weapons and such from the end bosses.
You'll have a better chance getting a PUG for one of those groups and then moving on to Firelands success afterward.
Gearing up
It sounds like Chris is probably already rocking pretty good gear. For those of you trying to get into successful raids who want to know how to catch up the curve, the path is fairly simple.
Do normal dungeons first (presumably, using the random Dungeon Finder). When the random Dungeon Finder says you're suitable for non-Troll heroics, start doing those. Keep going. Lastly, when the random Dungeon Finder says you're ready for Troll heroics, go kill some Trolls. (Who doesn't love killing Trolls?)
Try and squeeze in Blackwing Descent, Throne of the Four Winds, and Bastion of Twilight around the time you can start doing Troll heroics. This will help bootstrap you to the Firelands level quickly.
Obviously, doing the 4.2 dailies will help a lot, also. This is just a rough guide, and you should keep looking for PUGs that will take you all along the way.
Most important tip
The most important tip to finding PUGs with a good chance of success is to keep trying. Talk to the raid leaders, and if they turn you down, ask them to consider you for the next round. Keep trying to PUG on your server; keep trying to find new groups. Keep improving your own stats as you go, and eventually, the magic will happen.
All of this will be made a little easier when the Raid Finder tool is released in 4.3. While you'll still need to PUG to get into normal difficulty, at least you'll be able to start with the Raid Finder.
Visit the WoW Rookie Guide for links to everything you need to get started as a new player, from how to control your character and camera angles when you're just starting out, to learning how to tank, getting up to speed for heroics and even how to win Tol Barad.Filed under: WoW Rookie
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 2)
Saeadame Sep 22nd 2011 4:16PM
You should have much better luck this week. I personally ran a PUG where I took a bunch of somewhat undergeared people (about half the group was ~360 equipped ilvl or so) many of whom had never stepped in firelands, and we went 6/7, mostly due to the new nerfs and a little patience. Alternatively, my advice is to look for a PUG advertising they're going 6/7, and say you know the domo fight you just haven't downed it. Combined with your 5/7 achievement, this will make getting into groups much easier. Then, once you've downed Domo, you can look for Rag-only groups. As a mage, you're valuable for your high damage output and your ability to pop traps should the raid be lacking a priest. Know how traps work, and be willing to step up and do it (even if you haven't actually done it before, be confident! It's easy! Just make sure you call out when you're popping them and keep an eye on tank health).
arcady Sep 22nd 2011 7:14PM
@djsuursoo: Good tanks, great tanks, and elite tanks - are all largely unknowns thanks to LFG tool meaning nobody really knows anybody anymore anyway. You might have one and you might not and might never know the difference either way unless you've been lucky or unlucky enough to see the other end of the spectrum.
There are very likely 'elite' tanks stuck in LFG-random-PUG with a dead guild because they don't know they're good enough - or don't know or care to leave guild for 'greener pastures'. There are likely bad tanks maintanking top progression content every week because the group is used to them and 'handles it' or just assumes this or that is slowing progression but doesn't know to analyze their tanks.
I'd say the odds are even either way these days.
The last time the tanks on either of my servers knew who the other tanks were was near the end of BC... Wrath hit and even casual guilds were raiding so everyone turned mental focus inward. Then LFG hit and people and community just went 'poof'.
You're lucky these days if you even know your own guild's tanks... especially as guild XP encourages super large guilds.
- Your best tank might be that guy sitting on the sidelines who hasn't bolted for the door yet. Or might not be.
WoW has become anonymous.
DragonFireKai Sep 22nd 2011 4:23PM
It's worth mentioning that while tanks are in demand for pugs, you're actually more likely to catch the last spot in a mostly guild run as a DPS or healer, because guild groups tend to cling to their tanks like a security blanket.
djsuursoo Sep 22nd 2011 4:28PM
tanks are worth their weight in mt dew.
good tanks are even rarer.
great tanks are nearly legendary and tend to have faction-wide name recognition...
the elite tanks that can pick up all the adds from a fight gone south while healing and mitigating, while saving the healer, and then recover everyone from the 'just wipe' stage of reaction and then down the boss anyways?
well those guys are a freaking myth. mostly.
arcady Sep 22nd 2011 7:17PM
Hmmm, I replied to djsuursoo in the wrong comment, a little above here. Annoying lack of an edit button around here...
Short version: Nobody knows who the good or bad tanks are anymore, wow's gone anonymous. All we have now is the quiet tanks and the tanks who blow their own horns.
rapsam2003 Sep 22nd 2011 7:20PM
@djsuursoo
The best tanks are the ones who know when and how to use their survivability cooldowns. Of course, when the new tanking model is released (probably next expansion), this will become even more apparent; really looking forward to active mitigation. For now though, it's rare to see a great tank. You'll see good tanks often, but to be honest what separates good from great is the guy who has the ability to survive for a bit when the tank healer dies or when the dps are dropping like flies. As for faction-wide legendary...not really; but guilds have been known to fight for their tanks.
murmaiderxx Sep 23rd 2011 8:37PM
Just because they included a dungeon finder option for people does not mean that people do not still group from their server. I can name several tanks from my server I have run with for a long time and names were 'legendary' to me before I started raiding.
They know their job, they do it well and they network with everyone on the faction.
Mainly these people started groups themselves and actually made routine runs so they could do things but they should not be looked at as (just) legendary but go-getters. How can you progress if you don't try?
djsuursoo Sep 22nd 2011 4:26PM
this is actually pretty useful. i broke with my old guild a while back over leadership issues, and while i'm on the list for people to get invited, work schedule doesn't always mean i'm going to go(the fact that i'm notched as a 'standby' probably counts towards that. guildies first was part of their mantra, and it makes sense).
i've been thinking about tagging along on a firelands run or two if i can swing it, working with some of the people i know on-server, but getting that foot in the door is, as you said, hard. most guilds with established teams have already got tanks in place.
ilevel 360 should serve me in decent stead in the firelands as a tank, right?(one troll item, two heroic-grade items(shoulder/head), and a mix of T11, 12, and firelands rewards)
toughest part is knowing the fights, i imagine.
and getting your foot in the door.
Katherine Sep 22nd 2011 5:21PM
Depends how it's itemised. If you're a stam-stacking paladin then no. If you're itemised/reforged correctly you'll be fine; I was tanking last night in an alt raid with ilevel 349 on my paladin, which was barely enough. A really good player could pull it off better than me I think, I hadn't tanked in a while.
djsuursoo Sep 22nd 2011 5:34PM
Katherine:
avoidance/mastery DK. main tank might be a little ambitious to aim for at first, but i could probably rock an off-tank spot.
thanks for the info.
omedon666 Sep 22nd 2011 5:00PM
I once heard someone quite bluntly and unkindly say:
"DPS don't start raids. DPS wait for the 'real' players to start raids, then hope they can get in in time".
A horrible way to word it, but the sentiment rings true, DPS is the most "conventional fun" in WoW, and so only the unconventionally motivated lean toward the "pressure roles". That's a big problem with the trinity system, and, as a player of all 10 classes, my heart goes out to those devoted "one character (insert "pure" DPS class here) players".
Katherine Sep 22nd 2011 5:16PM
Last night's raid I pugged a tank (didn't mean to, but it freed up one of our regulars to heal), a healer, and 2 DPS. The main things I look for is knowlege of the fights, how much dps you can do, whether your gear is enchanted/gemmed, and ideally your gear would be better than mine, but we raid at an odd time for the server and we can't always be too fussy.
Even if you've only watched or read about the fights that's better than needing them all explained to you. It might be an idea to learn several strategies, then you can just ask which one that raid prefers.
The only things that get you not invited back again:
- you lied about how much DPS you pull
- you were really sub-par for your class (any role)
- you whined the whole raid, whether about other members in it, the strategies we were using, or whatever. Be constructive and polite! We've booted people before for suggesting that the only strategy that was remotely working was rubbish. If we wipe on 1%, the problem isn't the strategy, it's that you didn't do 100 more DPS over the course of the fight.
Blasterion Sep 22nd 2011 5:28PM
This why pure dps classes needs a purge
Bheema Sep 22nd 2011 5:32PM
You hit the nail bang on the head. Ive been organizing FL PUGs for the past few weeks, and initially i was liberal, i would let people in pvp gear in , i would let ppl in 346s and just 359s in , i would let ppl without enchants in. And guess what the pugs wipes a bunch of times.
I find PUGs have a very low tolerance for patience, if there are too may wipes or the loot they wanted didn't drops , people start leaving. So Ive become one on of those picky PUGers , i ask how many 365s or 378s they have, i see if they r using any pvp pieces, i check for gems and enchants. If they havn't done any one of them , i don't invite them because they r the ones that yell "u guys r noobs , i outta here"
arcady Sep 22nd 2011 7:36PM
Heh...
Your last comment is so descriptive of the typical issue in WoW PUGs.
Not a raid but in a recent troll heroic tanking on my alliance side DK after a few wipes and chat starting to light up with the usual 'fail tank' I look around me and at recount and notice that I'm the -only- person of 5 with PvE gear on, except for the one who was in greens (who I could not figure out - I guess they had enough other gear in bags to queue in).
For a raid, I'm surprised you'd let in -anyone- with any PvP gear on.
A little low on gear I can understand, but PvP is a big red flag for itemization...
noel mcleod Sep 27th 2011 5:16PM
Ah, yet another elitist jerk. Ilvl 378 PvP gear is better than ilvl 346 JP rewards (probably about lvl 352) that Zulroics were originally meant to be run in. They are NOT always a bad choice.
This has been talked to death in the forums and in comments, zero the resilience and use the remaining stats to figure the value of the item. Rule-of-thumb, primary stat counts twice as much as a secondary. Usually if you're a successfull PuG PvPer, you're in full Vicious anyway so you end up balancing off one or two pieces.
Compare Spiritshield Mask iLvl 353 vs Vicious Glad's DP Helm:
Mask gives you 352 more armor, 59 LESS str, 89 LESS stam, the mastery vs dodge is about a wash so you end up with 159 parry and 352 armor at the cost of 59 str and 89 stam. If what you have in the slot is less than iLvl 353 (the Mask), you are better off with the PvP piece. This example (both pieces) are from a pally toon, I replaced the PvP piece when I got the mask but until then it was my best choice.
DETwing1981 Sep 22nd 2011 5:31PM
A tough, tough situation. This is the "fine line" of the game where enjoyment in doing something you WANT to do becomes skewed by what you're REQUIRED to do.
Since this game's inception people have been forced out of the roles/classes/specs they had their hearts set on. Players, good players, have spent months/years stuck in one role so they could see content. It is the way of things.
The person in this article has two options; no more, no less. 1) They either become viable via tanking or healing or 2) They continue struggling and hope for the best. Either way, especially with a "declining" game, their complaints will fall on deaf ears (or blind eyes, as it were) due in large part to what the author of the article highlighted.
Is there a chance they'll get lucky and happen in to an awesome situation? Of course there is. Roll the dice.
DragonFireKai Sep 22nd 2011 5:59PM
Those are hardly his only options. I garuntee you that there's guilds looking for a mage on Blackrock. There's pugs going every day on that server. It's the second most populous server in the game, and even on Alliance side, there's more players there than the total population of most medium servers.
There's always the option to lead your own group. While it may of been a daunting proposition last week, with the nerfs, it's now about as easy as Naxx 10. Not knowing the encounters is not an excuse, there's dozens of sites that show video guides on how to handle every aspect of every encounter from normal shannox to heroic rag. Not to mention that the new dungeon journal tells you exactly what every boss does. Leadership has never required less effort.
There's also the question of what he defines as a sucessful guild. If he's in a sub 370 ilevel set and is apping to 6/7H guilds, of course he's going to be shot down. He needs to set his sights on a managable level.
Further complicating things is the fact that we don't know what his toon actually looks like. If he's got unenchanted items, poor reforging, or an obviously bad spec, even non heroic guilds are likely to reject him.
In fact a cursory look at the server reveals 14 guilds actively raiding heroic firelands, including the number one guild on each faction, that are all actively recruiting mages specifically, and over 30 guilds at various stages of normal progression that need mages. If there's that much demand for a mage, and he's still getting rejected, then he needs to look at his character and see what he can do to improve it, because there's no way that a 4/7 normal guild is rejecting him solely because he doesn't have at least 6/7 normal down on his mage.
arcady Sep 22nd 2011 7:44PM
The third option is to find a guild that likes you for you winning smile.
I've always been a tank / healer. Of 9 85s now, only one has DPS gear / spec. Some of the others have the spec, but with motley random ungemmed gear.
So I've always had my pick, and I run my horde guild so I've been the one with final say for any guildie (even if I rarely used it).
And I've always kept the DPS with the 'winning smile' over the Recount / gear scores.
That is -NOT- an ideal strategy for a guild leader progression wise. But it let me have pleasant guild chat most of the time.
And yeah - my Horde Guild will likely never make it to Firelands. But chat is fine when we have it.
Casual guilds like mine are easy to find. What you can get out of them as DPS is that if you're willing to stick it out and be chipper, you're likely to be first to get invited on anything to do manage to do, even though you're "Just another mage."
Aegentis Sep 22nd 2011 5:47PM
As someone who is only able to pug raids since my guild isnt there yet, I would suggest that the most important thing is to 1) know people on your server, and 2) make sure that you are geared as you can be.
Knowing people means actually reading trade chat ( I know! yuk! ) and noting the people who are there all the time looking for people. Whisper them and let them know that you are dps and let you know if they have an opening. And them to your friends list. I have people check with me regularly (I'm a mage) to see if I am available.
I have also made sure that my gear is as good as it could be pre-raiding. Knowing your stats is key! This cant be stressed enough. Enchants and Gems (more importantly the right ones) make the world of difference