Ready Check: Looking into roll-based loot systems

Greetings once again, raiders. While the rest of the writers are off in their lofty towers of 4.3 land, I am stuck here in the trenches of reality. Fret not, we'll soon be climbing out of this foxhole that we've found ourself in, but the time is not quite right. I promise you though, when next we hit 4.3 content with our feet running, it is going to be an epic adventure that you won't want to miss. In the meantime, it's back to the discussion on loot systems. Gear, after all, doesn't distribute itself.
Last week, we talked about various DKP systems and the advantages or disadvantages that they hold. While DKP is a fairly common system that you'll probably see in most guilds, it isn't the only popular choice. This week, we'll be taking a look into roll-based loot systems and how they too can be an effective method for distributing purples.
Following tradition
Traditionally, roll-based loot systems have something of a stigma against them. Since these systems or the most part relying upon luck over any other factors, players tend to shy away from using flat rolls as a means of distributing their hard-earned rewards. Overall, this is perhaps for the best. As had been mentioned in a previous article, loot systems are judged by how evenly players receive items and how fairly they reward investment. Using the most basic roll system, which is just a pure /100 in WoW, fails in both of these aspects.
Loot is handed out at total random, so there is no method of enforcing an even spread of gear among raiders; further, the same random nature offers no chance at rewarding any one player over another. Perhaps the only good thing that can be said about a roll-based system is that it is entirely impartial to everyone, having no imbalance whatsoever, and for that reason isn't prohibitive to new recruits. On the same level, though, it also offers nothing to those players who have stuck around for the long haul.
Normally, few people run with a straight roll system, although in alt runs or PUGs, it isn't uncommon to see at all. You will generally see some stipulations attached to every roll. Variations exist for one main spec win per raid, with a similar or no limitation on off-spec items as well. Some groups will also differentiate between tier and non-tier items as well, allowing for one main spec win per raid and one tier item win per raid. While such a system was more common when all tier items came as a raid drop, with Firelands only holding two tier pieces, this rule set isn't seen as frequently any more.
Overall, there's nothing inherently wrong with a straight roll-based loot system, but it is really more so a system better left to PUG or alt runs instead of being the mainstay system used by any serious raiding team. Instead, it is often best to use a modified roll-based system. There are several of these out there, all of which have their own ups and downs; here, we'll look at one purely roll-based system while also taking a peek at a DKP-roll hybrid.
Letting fate be your guide
Ni-karma is perhaps my favorite loot system that I have ever heard of, yet it's probably one that you haven't yet come across. Despite how awesome it is, the persecution against roll-based loot systems has really prevented it from ever taking a strong root in the WoW community. Perhaps things will change, though I doubt it, and it may wind up different in Titan, but for now Ni-karma remains the glorious little loot system that hides in the back burner.
Ni-karma is exactly as the name implies, a roll based system that is influenced by fate -- or in this case, the raid leader. Every raider earns karma, points that essentially play out as though they were DKP. Players can then use this karma to influence their rolls, allowing them a better chance at getting whatever item it is that they wish. Each item is handled slightly differently, but overall, the system is fairly simplistic.
When you first go to distribute loot, the item is linked out and rolls are called for. Anyone who wants the item sends in whether they wish to roll with or without their karma. Rolling with your karma provides a much higher chance of winning the item; however, winning comes with a price of half your accumulated karma. Rolling without using your karma comes at no cost, but you have a much lower chance of getting the item, particularly if others choose to use their karma. Karma, in this sense, is nothing more than additional numbers added into your roll, so if you rolled a 50 and had 50 karma, you would have a total roll of 100. Simple enough!
There are two other factors part of this system as well. First, anyone who chooses to use his karma and has 50 more karma than all other players choosing to roll automatically wins the item. Should there be a player within that range, then only he would get a chance to roll. For example, if Druid A has 100 karma, Rogue A has 80 karma, and Death Knight A has 40 karma, then only Rogue A can roll if Druid A choose to use his karma, and only if the rogue uses his, as well.
The second little hiccup is that tier items always have a fixed price, applied whether you choose to use your karma or not (although whether or not you choose to use this rule is entirely up to you). The fixed price on tier loot primarily exists as an anti-inflation device to prevent players from attempting to hoard their karma in an effort to bypass loot. We often see this in medium progression guilds that farm normal difficulty encounters for a month or so before hitting heroic encounters; some players will tend to pass on all non-heroic loot in an effort to save up only for heroic items. Losing half of your karma per item, however, is often enough to prevent any hoarding or overinflation.
Overall, Ni-karma really hits upon the best of both worlds. It allows for a measure of luck to equalize loot distribution while similarly being rewarding to long-term players. Perhaps the biggest bonus that Ni-karma has over other loot systems is that it doesn't have the same off-spec penalties that traditional DKP systems have; the player merely rolls without their karma bonus if no one needs it for main spec.
Rolling as a deterrent
Shroud Loot System, or SLS, is probably another one that you haven't heard of before, yet it's very well crafted. Although it follows more of a strict DKP style, there is just as much of a roll-based element to it as well. While originally, DKP based systems awarded points exclusively for kills, most of current systems probably work off of attendance instead, and for that we have SLS to thank. SLS was one of the first popularized DKP systems that worked exclusively off attendance-based points instead of rewarding players for kills, a theory that has carried over into much of today's common loot systems.
In SLS, players earn their points for every raid that they attended. As with any normal DKP systems, they can then spend those points in order to obtain items. Unlike most other DKP systems, however, there is no bidding involved. Upon looting, players are given two basic options: Either you spend half of your current DKP to get the item, or you choose to pay a very low, fixed amount of DKP for the item. In cases of the former, whoever has the highest total wins the item, and that's the end of it.
Where's the roll base, you ask? Rolling comes into play when multiple players shoot for paying out the low, fixed DKP amount instead of going halfway in.
Any time you have multiple players who wish to bid the lowest amount possible, all players seeking the item then roll to see who wins, with the winner spending his DKP. While seemingly not very roll-based, you may find yourself rolling more times than you'd think. Gearing follows many trends with certain items being excessively desirable and others only needed by a few select classes or specs or just not that great overall.
In most traditional DKP systems, undesirable items are often left to rot, even though they might be a minor upgrade for some players. My current guild is a prime example of this. We run using a standardized DKP system where everything is left open to bidding yet there's a minimum bid that is a tenth of your current total rounded up. Our DKP values are fairly low, keeping most minimum bids around 1 to 2, but that same factor also makes it highly prohibitive in getting minor or off-spec items. When you only gain 2 DKP a night, it's hard to justify spending all of that or more on an item that's not for your primary raiding role.
In SLS, that is often avoided because the fixed DKP price isn't overtly prohibitive toward picking up any spare gear. Plus, any main-spec item that you win is going to cut your current total in half, which is a huge deterrent against hoarding. Given how many itemized roles there are, it's fairly common for multiple hybrids to shoot for off-spec items. The low DKP cost of certain pieces also helps players in picking up minor upgrades for their main spec.
As another personal example, I have the heroic necklace from twin dragons; therefore, the necklace that drops off of Majordomo Staghelm is of limited value to me. While others in the raid group are willing to spend high amounts of DKP for that item, I am not because it isn't a huge upgrade for me. To this day, I still haven't picked it up because it has never been worth the DKP cost to get, despite being a minor upgrade for my primary raiding role. Again, this is something that SLS avoids. Although players do still have to spend DKP for these items, the cost is much lower than what they would spend for a normal upgrade, making it far more likely that multiple players would want it.
What's to prevent everyone from merely going for the low minimum? Chance, of course. Players often hate luck of the draw, which is why roll systems are frowned upon. Thus, if everyone starts bidding the least that they can, they are tossing themselves at the mercy of the RNG gods to fall in their favor; few are often willing to risk such a thing.
Tune in next week!
There are still a few other widely used loot systems out there that we haven't touched upon yet. At this point, I plan on wrapping up this series with next week's column, but one never knows what time may bring. Hope this has been of use. Stay classy, WoWers.
Ready Check shares all the strategies and inside information you need to take your raiding to the next level. Be sure to look up our strategy guides to Cataclysm's 5-man instances, and for more healer-centric advice, visit Raid Rx.
Filed under: Raiding, Ready Check (Raiding)






Reader Comments (Page 1 of 2)
Moeru Sep 30th 2011 5:40PM
I still prefer suicide loot lists. The system we were using rewarded attendance without punishing those who might miss a few raids, while focusing on giving loot out equally.
Mistrabbit Sep 30th 2011 6:02PM
Reading these articles (and having to suffer through a bloated DKP system all throughout BC), I feel so lucky to be in the guild I am. We’ve been doing 10-person raids 3-4 times a week ever since Wrath and our system is this:
A) People who need the item for their main spec roll “Need”
B) People who could use the item for an off-spec roll “Greed”
C) Winner desperately tries to give the item away to someone else who rolled because “I’ve already won something!” or “it’s a better upgrade for you!”
The biggest loot drama we’ve ever had was the 5 minutes our warrior chased our DK around Deathbringer Saurfang’s landing trying to open a trade pane to give him an item, with the DK screaming, “No! Keep it! You won it!”
Yeah, we’re a strange bunch.
Snuzzle Sep 30th 2011 6:30PM
Your guild sounds like mine. I still remember when we'd run with a certain Paladin from a sister guild, and he'd have to put on Master Looter and threaten us with "Look, either you decide amongst yourselves who gets it or I'm just handing it to you."
And several times he did have to forcibly put it into someone's bags because of the "You take it"s and "No it's better for you"s.
Bellajtok Sep 30th 2011 6:32PM
Strange AWESOME. I want to join your guild. That's the kind of stuff I'm always doing in PUGs.
Eddy Sep 30th 2011 6:57PM
The guild that I had, that fell apart sometime before the Firelands came out, basically had this system. We had very few people who actually shared gear, and the worst was between myself and the other hunter. We were always very good about knowing the others gear and knowing when pieces were more valuable upgrades for each of us. When it came down to something that, say, all the healers or both of us needed equally, we rolled. There was never drama.
Sure, sometimes it was sad to finally down a boss and watch a PUG take a piece of loot. But the few PUGs we had tended to raid with us sometimes, and a few of them ended up joining, so it worked out.
SmokeTheBear Sep 30th 2011 8:48PM
Yeah, that's been my experience, too. In BC we used EPGP, in Wrath we used a modified DKP system that was sort of a cross between DKP and EPGP, and now we roll for it based on need, and disagreements involving the winner wanting someone else to have it are far more common than the inverse.
We often have to get one or two people to fill in who aren't in our guild, let alone our raid, and we've never had any problems with people being upset when a pugger got loot.
Katherine Sep 30th 2011 6:06PM
We use a straight roll system, but there's a little bit of 'It's better for X, let him have it' type passing after the roll.
Fierna Sep 30th 2011 6:46PM
I loved Ni-Karma when I raided with a guild who used it. I do think it's a bit of a mistake to not always subtract half the Karma point son a roll as it meant certain classes never lost karma because no one was ever rolling against them (spell mail for example).
Cyno01 Sep 30th 2011 6:49PM
Yeah, need roll is usually fine for a 10-man non pug. Our guilds loot rules? "Dont be a dick."
Kondin Sep 30th 2011 10:44PM
Ditto. I'd hate to be in a guild where all these complicated loot rules are even necessary. Oh, hey shoulders dropped. Well I have 359, you have 346, go ahead and take them. Oh, I know you've wanted that trinket forever, its all yours. And then just roll if anybody could use it as much.
Its not a hard sell when people understand the loot is to help the group, not help you feel better about your e-peen.
Fweet Sep 30th 2011 8:16PM
Our guild leader through BC and Wrath always seemed to know everybody's gear situation and was very fair about raid drops (He had an uncanny knack for knowing when a player hadn't received an upgrade in a while). Granted, we ran pretty much pure guild raids only, so drama was low, but loot distribution usually went like this: "Link what you're replacing." Those interested in the item would show what they currently have, then we'd see "[Name] receives [item]" and everybody would congratulate the recipient.
Sure, there were times when the decision took a minute or two, but that was usually when he was consulting the rest of the officers for input. I really enjoyed this relaxed approach - Near-zero drama for years.
becqstarforged Sep 30th 2011 8:24PM
Here's another loot allocation system:
CAPITALIST LOOT AUCTION (CLA)
Using this sytem, players bid gold for loot that comes up. All gold accumulated by winning bids is pooled, then divided among the raiders at the end of the raid.
Does this mean that 'rich' raiders can just buy all of the loot, leaving poorer players with nothing? Yes and no. Let's say MoneyBagz, the rich character, walks away with 5 nice pieces of gear by bidding ... oh, lets say 15k each. That's 75k gold distributed to the raid, with each raider getting a 7.5k gold share. That gold can be spent to get BoEs from the AH, or saved up for a bid in the next raid. The items that nobody bids on get disenchanted. It would probably work best to require a minimum bid, possibly related to disenchant values, to prevent people from loading up on stuff 'for free' by bidding 1gp.
DarkWalker Sep 30th 2011 8:47PM
I'm a little extreme in this - I hate RNG elements in my gearing with a burning passion - but perhaps the single thing I hate most in raids is rolling against other players for gear. And the second is raid boss loot being random. I'm the happiest when the raid, or even the game itself, remove as much uncertainty from gearing up as possible.
So, unless there is rampant cheating or preferential treatment, I tend to prefer looting system that has no rolls at all.
This goes to the point that, in WoW, if I could actually stomach end game PvP, I might as well never again set a foot in raids simply because of the RNG elements in PvE gearing. Gearing up in PvP has much less RNG elements. Unfortunately, given that I don't like WoW's PvP at all (I would rather play TF2, DCUO, or GW1 for my PvP fix, depending on the gameplay style I'm craving at the moment), it's either raiding or leaving the game out of boredom.
It's also one of the main reasons I plan to move to GW2 as soon as it's released, and not look back. Per-player loot (i.e., no loot rolls ever), plus most things available for one kind or another of loot currency (which means there should be no way to be stuck in a dry spell because of poor RNG), in a game that has good enough game systems and polish to otherwise please me, should make me a far happier player.
Zrob Sep 30th 2011 8:53PM
I miss how we did it in my raid group during Wrath. We were a ten man that was pretty consistent for almost two years.
The "Don't be a Dick" system
All items are open roll.
Don't roll on things you cannot use.
Don't roll on things that are obviously better for another person (i.e the STR gun is for the warrior but the rogue should let the Hunter have the AGI bow and the warrior can't roll on the daggers until the rogue has them already)
If you win something and you think someone else might benefit more, or if they can convince you that it will benefit them more, feel free to trade it.
Oh and we used the in game roll system Need/Greed/DE, so if you want it for offset, make sure you NEED (but again, if you happen to beat someone going for main spec, then please let them help the raid as a whole)
My raiders loved it and I can't remember us having a drop of loot drama From KelthuZad through Kingslayer.
(it did suck tho when my prot paladin couldn't upgrade her shield to save her life, but it wasn't the fault of the system so much as the fault of the loot tables)
Albert B Sep 30th 2011 10:02PM
All through Wrath we used a roll based system. It was rather simple. Officers kept track of raid attendance and you got a roll at the end of the month based on that attendance as a percentage. If you only showed up for 3 or 4 raids you got 1-75 roll, for example. It made it so that everyone had a chance of getting something, but it would likely go to the people that were actually around to help us in raids. It was a simple system and it worked out very well with little drama.
Outis Oct 1st 2011 12:38AM
My 10 man guild runs use a straight /roll, with unofficial encouragement to the effect of "play nice". We have all armor types represented (though not perfectly balanced) except spellpower plate, so it works pretty well - most non-tier rolls are uncontested.
In contrast, the system we use to determine who is going to be *in* the raid (because almost always have more dps than can come) is a little more complex; /roll with modifiers for performance, attendance and officer rating.
sh0wtime Oct 1st 2011 12:54AM
I'm a little surprised to not see the PIRATE Loot System make an appearance. I have used it extensively in both progression (with a loot council veto) and casual guilds. Hell, one of my friends has used it for over two years to manage PUG raids (regulars get rewarded).
The system is very simple and only requires that one track loot awarded and raid attendance. It also allows for positive and negative rewards by giving out +/- PIRATE score points.
The system is merely:
6wk % attendance + 12 wk % attendance - 10 * (Number of Items won in the last 6 weeks) + /random 100
It rewards regular attendance, the system is designed to prevent a player winning multiple items when others have won none, and it incorporates the /roll aspect for a bit of chance.
My current guild is using a slightly altered system where trinkets are worth 1.25 items and weapons worth 1.5. Also, as a result of it being a 10-man raiding guild we made the items worth double in the calculation [20x(Number of Items won in the last 6 weeks), instead of 10].
Ghrit Oct 1st 2011 1:28PM
The article really hasn't sold me on its hate for roll-based looting systems. Actually, hold that -- I do hate what I'm reading about karma and shroud looting! Sounds complex and unnecessary.
Our rules work fine: 1 main spec roll per raid, then subsequent main spec rolls are trumped by other main spec rolls from players who haven't one anything. Same thing transposed for offspec rolls, only OS rolls are always trumped by any main spec rolls. 1 tier roll. Boom. Presto! Nae Problemo.
If loot goes to someone we have had to pug in because someone couldn't make it, then that's our guild's fault, not the pugger. Why should she be penalized for someone else's absence? Also, groups may minimize the risk involved in rolling for pieces by paying attention to raid composition. There is only 1 holy paladin in out raid, hence I tend to get every single plate item that has int on it. You know -- spread it out and you won't have problems, that's all. And yeah, the 'don't be a dick' principle is a given.
Ghrit Oct 1st 2011 12:35PM
edit: *won
Saitenyo Oct 1st 2011 2:38PM
This article seems less about roll-based loot systems and more about systems that are similar to DKP, but not DKP, and why roll-based loot systems are supposedly bad for anything but PUGs. I would have loved to see a bit more of an objective viewpoint that actually addressed some of the pros of roll-based loot systems as well.
I find one of the cons of DKP (which you touched on here) is that minor upgrades that are potentially helpful to the guild's overall progress get left to rot because no one wants to spend their hard-earned points. Using currency systems to buy loot has always seemed to place a lot of unnecessary restrictions on loot acquisition in some situations, and seems fairly progress-prohibitive to new recruits.
My guild's system was simple: The raid leader distributes loot, calling for mainspec rolls first. If no one wants it for their mainspec, offspecs can roll next. If no one wants it at all, then it gets DE'd and the mats go in the guild bank. Nothing goes to waste this way and I feel like the constant potential chance to win something keeps things more exciting. Our team was always polite enough too that people would generally take turns/pass on stuff if they'd already won something that run.
I'm not saying DKP systems are awful, I'm just saying different guilds and people prefer different systems, and it would have been nice if this article had actually addressed that instead of dismissing roll systems as being just for PUGs.