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9-30-2011 @ 11:02AM
Tanks in 5-person instances are expected to lead. They are given extra responsibility but no extra power/control over the group. This is what I believe to be one of the largest contributing factors to the scarcity of tanks using the LFD tool.The new Raid Finder tool is going to require someone to queue as leader.These people are given extra responsibility but very little to no extra power/control over the group.How long do you think it will take for us to see "Call to Lead" bags?More seriously, how much power can Blizzard give to leaders without making it too abuse-prone?-----------------------------------------------------Personally, I wish they would add a checkbox that puts me in a server-only queue for both Dungeon and Raid finder. I'm willing to wait longer, if it means that I'll end up with a server-only group.Reputation and prestige would matter in these groups, which would reduce poor player behavior. That's the biggest thing I miss about pre-dungeon finder pugs.
9-30-2011 @ 11:05AM
I'd like to hit one button and be queued for every heroic, raid, and BG - whichever pops first.
9-30-2011 @ 11:07AM
A clarification...I meant I want a checkbox on the LFD tool that allows me to queue for a server-only 5-person instance.I would also like that functionality to be on the Raid Finder tool.
9-30-2011 @ 11:09AM
Well, the reason i gave up tanking heroics is that it was quite tough and random pugs are quite harsh. Usually. Most pugs are infwsted with jerks because of the lack of accountability. But my thinking is that with 4.3 we can finally get fairly easily gear that is two tiers above the content ehich allows much more lattitude and should make it easier to tank pugs.
9-30-2011 @ 11:10AM
I agree, making a leader responsible for, well leading a raid, is a rough job to do when you don't have any power. Sure, if you are just filling up a few raid spots you can use a few vote kicks if the people who que won't follow your rules but still, I wish they had made LFR more like a cross-server PuG than a random pairing of people like the dungeon finder. And who knows, it is only the PTR, things might change up a bit to fix some of the problems.
9-30-2011 @ 11:14AM
Then why not just go and listen in trade chat then? One thing we're not sure of yet, is if you could in essence form a 25m raid, and then use the LFR (At least, I'm not sure if you can, has that been answered yet?).For the power Blizz can give group leaders, I personally hope not a whole lot more then they already have. If it's just an incentive they give, hey great, I'm fine with that, if it's the ability to kick people at free will, I will avoid the lfr like the plague.
9-30-2011 @ 11:28AM
I think anyone who leads in a 5 man or in a raid should get something extra. I would make it valor points in addition to whatever prize satchel blizz wants to roll out. That's the whole thing that is wrong with the system. No one wants to lead. Hell, I have been in runs where no one wants to talk. Fine if you don't want to be social but at least communicate to others.
9-30-2011 @ 11:36AM
Honestly, I don't think it'll be a big deal. LFD has roughly the same mechanic, and it's largely ignored. Nobody really cares who is flagged as Leader - they still expect the tank to call the shots in most cases.
9-30-2011 @ 11:38AM
In my experience, there's no shortage of meatheads who want to lead. There's too few people who are content simply to follow.
9-30-2011 @ 11:44AM
What Krozer said. Too many people think they're too good/smart to be lead by something obviously inferior to them.
9-30-2011 @ 1:00PM
1 ego-fuelled know-it-all to every 24 normal people queuing? Just run a typical BG in any bracket and you will see that there are more than enough "leaders". Question is, can you take the inevitable use of caps lock?
9-30-2011 @ 1:12PM
Anyone who has fears about the LFR clearly hasn't read WoW-Insider's article on the LFR, which just simply states what the Blues said about LFR. @Bapo:Before a player can be kicked from a LFR raid, several players must agree to the vote. Then, once the move to pass the vote succeeds, the actual vote happens. So, at least 50% of 24 people must vote yes to kick someone. The RL in LFR is not given a free kick button. That'd just be stupid.
9-30-2011 @ 1:13PM
I was one quite active LFD tank (over 10 weekly hours tanking WotLK heroics) that completely stopped as soon as Cata hit, for a couple reasons:- Main one: time. I play mostly in 30-minutes chunks, at least during week days. Anything that does not fit into a 30-minutes chunk will simply not be done - and, when Cata launched, this included random heroics, and even, to some extent, random normal dungeons.- Secondary: frustration. Too many wipes with random groups. While I have no problem wiping when in a group composed of just friends (as long as I don't feel it's me that is holding the group back), I'm not really willing to eat wipe after wipe due to players I don't even know doing stupid things, or being just bad.This was compounded by the fact I can't really maintain a regular playing schedule outside weekends. The only way for me to do regular heroic runs with friends would be to have a bunch of them at my beck and call - which, of course, is not the case.As for doing all my dungeon runs on weekends - I would then have no time at all to raid.In the end, I left the game because I had everything that I could get without excessive frustration, and was just logging daily for a few minutes at a time in order to do the daily fishing and cooking quests. It was not enough to justify the $15 per month charge.
9-30-2011 @ 1:17PM
@BapoBlizz answered that question in their LFR FAQ here: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/blog/3608426/Raid_Finder_Coming_in_Patch_43-9_29_2011#blogQ. Can I queue with my friends in a party or raid?A. Yes, you can queue for the Raid Finder individually, in a party, or in a raid. The Raid Finder can be a great tool to help fill those last few slots in a raid.
9-30-2011 @ 1:52PM
Its probably a good thing that tanks don't have extra control (in 5-mans), such as special kick button that required no vote. Some tanks (not all, by any means) already come into groups feeling entitled. They're not always the "leader" (but, as mentioned before, does anyone really know/care who that leader person is), but these entitled tanks feel (and say LOUDLY) that they should get whatever they want just handed over because they are the tank. I've seen it mostly in instances where a mount drops, tank will say "If the mount drops, its mine because I'm the tank." Now, no (LFD) group ever goes for that. Ever. If tanks were default leaders that had special abilities to kick with no vote, anyone that disagreed with that statement could be kicked. For no reason other than disagreeing with said tank over something that has a 1% drop rate and probably not be an issue anyway.An example of this happened to me twice (ironically with the same tank considering I always hit the random button) in Utgarde, first time nothing was said (I didn't even know a mount drop was on the loot table) until after the mount dropped and everyone rolled and my friend won the blue drake. Tank threw a hissy fit demanding she hand it over, and yelling all kinds of death wishes at her.. resulting in him getting kicked. A week or so later, I'm randoming with the same friend, and we get this guy again who starts off the run all capslock "IF THE MOUNT DROPS ITS MINE CAUSE I"M THE TANK AND YOU CAN'T DO THIS WITHOUT ME SO ITS MINE!!!". So, of course everyone in the group says no, we roll, if you win fine. Yadda yadda. He kept at it, caplocky and bitchy, till he got kicked before we even got to the boss that drops the drake.I know raids are different, and guilds have their own loot rules and whatnot as to how things are distributed. And thats fine. It seems LFR is doing something to make sure that everyone has a shot at getting something. They've also taken the possible kick abuse away from the leader (who might not be one of the tanks). However, zoning into a 5-man instance thought LFD those rules don't apply (unless of course you're in an all guild member run, then you know).As it is, with the LFD kick vote cooldown, it doesn't really matter. Other than you can tell who kicks a lot and who doesn't. If someone wants to kick someone, and they can't because of a cooldown, they'll say "i'd kick but I can't for 3 hours". And someone else who doesn't have a cooldown will do it. So, yeah.. it keeps that person from kicking someone repeatedly. But if that person runs with a friend, the friend could have no cooldown. Or, just someone else in the group won't have a cooldown, so kicks happen even when they aren't necessary, just because someone wants to be a jerk and someone else in the group agrees to (at least) start a vote.Now, what I kinda wish they would do is show the note to the person being kicked. Granted most people who are going to do the kicking arent going to put anything in there that is constructive, it'd mostly be some kind of profanity/insult. However, to the jerky entitled tank getting kicked, it'd be nice if they got to see the note that was put in as a reason to kick him.
9-30-2011 @ 2:23PM
Marking.Having lead in a raid is all about Marking.If you end up with the lead in raids being one of those 'lul watz skull?' idiots, or the person who randomly puts marks on -party- members rather than mobs...(its pretty common in a 5-man for me to mark sheeping targets with moon, only to see moon move to on top of the hunter pet's head 5-seconds later, followed by a diamond over the warrior, and a square over my mini-pet...)Then it will be chaos...But other than marking - there's no need for a 'lead' per se.Tanks will end up being forced to be raid leads in terms of duties anyway - want it or not.And we'll still have the idiot who calls out every detail of a strat, even on trash pulls, even after people say they know what to do.And we'll still have the idiot who tries to vote kick anyone who actually asks for a strat.But it will just kinda sort itself out over time. People by now have learned how to 'play around idiots' in LFG-5-Mans. They'll figure it out in LF-Raid-25-mans too. Just now you'll have to work around 5 idiots and not one.The thing I most dread will be the idiot who keeps trying to move what groups everyone is in...Player A will put all the tanks and heals into group A, everyone else into the other groups. Player B will try to make some complex grouping based on the strat posted on Elitist Jerks for the 25-man Heroic version. Player C will insist his girlfriend be in his group... Player D will yell STFU-You_Noobs and pull the first mob as soon as anyone tries to mess with the groups... Player E will leave group causing us all to have to re-enter queue... Player F will take a bio break after player E leaves but before clicking their role on the re-queue so we all end up waiting 10-minutes for 'nature to have her way.':)I think the first hour of every LF-Raid will be spent clicking accept on assorted popups and waiting for the people who chose that moment to go AFK to get back and then trying the popup again only to see some other fool went AFK...
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