Skip to Content
10-04-2011 @ 6:53PM
I think a well written, thought out response to this is what has been needed. Every debate I've tried to have with the rest of my healing team on this has been met with derision due to the fact that the perception is I am QQing.The fact of the matter is, our big numbers are papering over the cracks, and outsiders see a spec that is overpowered. When you really get down to it though, we have a toolbox which is severly lacking, as exemplified by Baleroc.A lot of our spells are cumbersome at best. Lifebloom on tank swaps is awkward, and wastes a lot of global cooldowns before we can really get any healing done there. Tree of Life form, seems to need to be something you think about before a high damage phase in order to get LB up and running on multiple targets, its only other real use is Regrowth spam, which is going to OOM you ridiculously fast. Overall, we need a significant rebuild to make the class work in a logical manner.
10-04-2011 @ 7:37PM
This. I'm really struck by how much the spec keeps returning to its historic issues. The druid does very well at pumping out a lot of healing, but it has a very small toolbox for this purpose, and one that arguably hasn't changed much since BC. While this makes it easy to buff or nerf the class' output -- turn that thermostat up on Rejuvenation or Wild Growth -- I don't think it addresses the systemic problems. Blizzard wants choice to be a big part of healing, mostly in the form of a player learning to make the best choice for a given situation, but when you've only got one spell to address a situation, there's not much choice involved. What's that old saying about everything looking like a nail when you're a hammer?Raid damage? Blow WG on cooldown. Not much choice. :/ I'm not a fan of changing a spec just because a new expansion's coming up, but I do think there's a lot of merit to the arguments that WG can't be the druid's only realistic option for AOE healing.
10-04-2011 @ 9:06PM
That's the Druid class in a nutshell though isn't it? Other than Cats, who at least have tons of buttons (if not the utility of a Rogue) all other specs still play like stripped-down copies of other, more well-designed classes. Don't get me wrong, I love my Druid main and her chickeny ways, it's just sometimes I wonder if they could do more than give each spec two buttons to push for the same effect other classes get with ten. Sure, it means we're easier to play in some cases, but it also causes issues like the ones lined out in this article when we're so heavily balanced around one or two spells.
I begged for a direct (non-HOT) AOE healing spell (ie. my original "healing shrooms" solution that Blizzard ignored). Instead, they just made wild growth and tranquility overpowered spells that look overpowered when you don't remember what happened the LAST time they nerfed rejuv & WG to try and reduce our reliance on them.I told Blizzard this was going to be a problem in Beta for Cata, and that problem was never, ever actually addressed. I think today's post summarizes the issue I was trying to fix almost a year ago that has still never been addressed (my December 2010 post hits on all the same points as this one is bringing back to light):http://www.restokin.com/2010/12/druid-raid-healing-design-problem-redux/If only Blizzard would remember that Lissanna is always right. >.>
10-04-2011 @ 10:04PM
Maybe if they made rejuv last longer, so we don't have to refresh it as often? I don't know. If they want us to cast more direct heals, freeing up more global cooldowns for this purpose wouldn't be a bad way to go.Tree of Life... I always feel like I'm wasting time casting LB on multiple targets when I'm popping that because I need extra oomph. Maybe if ToL would allow for instant 3 stacks of LB, it would be worthwhile. As it is, I'm usually popping ToL to get extra WG targets hit, and to throw out a ton of instant regrowths. But maybe I'm doin it wrong.I've never built my healing spec in the more tank-oriented fashion, so maybe that's a better call. As a predominantly T12 geared tree at this point, though, I still find their are occasions on trollroics where a tank can start taking big hits and I can't bring him back fast enough. Between that and having our AoE throughput take a hit, it makes me an unhappy tree.One thing I will say though is that I *love* SM and Efflorescence. I love the utility of dropping that on the tank for the instant heal or tactically as an AoE consecration of sorts.
10-04-2011 @ 10:55PM
buffing rejuv doesn't help (and our set bonus for Tier 13 actually extends the duration of rejuv). When Rejuv overtakes Wild Growth, they just nerf rejuv again and then we suck worse, and then Blizzard buffs WG/Rejuv spam, and then Blizzard nerfs WG/Rejuv spam, and then has to buff WG/rejuv spam and then I want to club baby seals because we haven't even have WG/Rejuv spam in Burning Crusade to be nerfed.The fix isn't to buff/nerf WG/rejuv spam. The fix is to give us another tool to mix in with the WG/rejuv spam.
10-04-2011 @ 11:51PM
Don't we have enough tools, as is? We have a toon-dependent fixed AoE that depends on a HoT being up, and a smart HoT. Are you looking for something that's more like a direct AoE, or something different?Tier bonuses aren't fixes, imo, though they can feel like it. See: original 2 pc T10 ret paladin Divine Storm awesomeness.
10-05-2011 @ 2:51AM
I'll tell you why it's difficult for anyone to give you credence.It's because, from the Resto Shaman perspective, I'm being sat - for you.Not because I'm not a good healer. Not because I don't know my class and spec like the back of my hand. I'm being sat because your ability to push out ridiculous amounts of healing completely negates anything I bring to the table. I simply cannot keep up, and the CD's that I -do- have are extremely limited in terms of positioning and scope. My raid is better off - by FAR - bringing you and your "bad toolbox" over bringing me, and my shitty throughput and bad raid CDs.The same can be said of Holy Priests at the moment, as well - because between your massive throughput and your far better mana efficiency, there is absolutely no reason to ever bring a Holy Priest when you have the option to bring a Resto Druid. Their "tanking CD" is laughable, at best, and simply doesn't outweigh the other things you bring in your favor.THAT is why it is difficult for other healers to give you credence. And as much as you may not want to address or acknowledge it, it's still there. And no amount of justification ("But that's ALL I BRING") really matters when ALL THAT YOU BRING means other healers are being sat specifically because ALL YOU BRING is so much better than ANYTHING they bring.
10-05-2011 @ 7:37AM
Giving druids the right toolset allows them to nerf our output on Healing Meters without us becoming totally worthless. Unfortunately, I'd honestly rather bring a holy priest or resto shaman than a resto druid even now because I know the meters are lieing, and I know that for a fact druids only look good on meters to disguise the fact that our toolset sucks. They have already announced buffs to BOTH shaman and holy priests in the next patch, so you can't even say what the output #'s are going to look like at that point.In theory-land, if class A brought 10% damage reduction all the time, someone else would have to do 10% more healing to make up for not having that damage reduction. They'd be bringing the same actual value to the group, with healer A (bringing damage reduction) just looking worse on the ridiculous meters that everyone worships. However, choosing healer B over healer A is actually stupid, since healer A is actually doing something that is more likely to prevent deaths.In conclusion, if they had given us a damage reduction ability instead of buffing tranquility last patch, we wouldn't be in this mess. Instead of a damage reduction totem (that doesn't give you healing #'s on meters), druids got tranquility (a spell that looks great on meters). They probably actually have the same net-effect on the group (the same duration, the same life-saving ability, the same cooldown). Unfortunately, nerfing Wild Growth doesn't even address why we look good on the meters in the first place. So, I'd gladly lose some standing on the e-peen meters to have a well-designed toolset.You have no idea how frustrating it is to be someone who understands how the healing class mechanics actually work and not just how to read totally meaningless HPS numbers this expansion.
10-05-2011 @ 9:34AM
@LissanaI assume you are talking about Spirit Link Totem as the damage reduction CD. It is a 10% reduction for 6 seconds (8 if talented) every 3 min. On top of that, it balances the health of those in range to the same percent. So if I haven't topped off the melee dps around the tank before the big damage comes in, and I pop SLT, I actually hurt the tank. SLT is great sometimes. It is also an executioner's tool.So, 10% reduction for 8 seconds twice in a fight. or 10% (at the low end, likely 15-25%) increased healing for the whole fight?And you would really bring a Shaman because of the great CD?
10-05-2011 @ 10:59AM
@ nicko666Agreed. I love my Druid but I just can't wrap my head around Restoration mechanics. Not without some discomfort, (and possibly bleeding if you're the literal sort). Now I'm competent healing, but that doesn't mean I'm good. It's just because the numbers it puts out are so imbalanced.Give me Discipline, when I want to heal. As a Druid though I'm Feral (tank/dps) or Boomy... (baby).
10-05-2011 @ 12:24PM
@Lissanna: "You have no idea how frustrating it is to be someone who understands how the healing class mechanics actually work and not just how to read totally meaningless HPS numbers this expansion."Is it the same kind of frustration as being sat because those lying meters are valuing that Druid over anything you bring?As william.i.harrison pointed out, that Spirit Link Totem isn't nearly as good as you think it is. What's more, it's HEAVILY dependent on positioning, has a clunky mechanic that means it is never where I want it to be (it's always off, no matter what I do), and if raid members aren't topped off, it actually STEALS HEALTH FROM THE TANK and gives him only a 10% DR in return (which, let's be honest - does anyone really think Inspiration/Ancestral Fortitude is worth stealing half the tank's health? Please tell me you don't think that...).It has the POTENTIAL to be really awesome. But as with many things, potential does not equal actual usefulness. It is, by far, the most powerful mechanic that we bring to the table - which should tell you something.But if you think that SLT plus the buffs Shaman are getting is going to fix things without a Druid throughput nerf, you're very wrong. I still have my doubts about the Holy Priest buffs, though they have solved a major issue with the spec - that it did not bring an effective raid cooldown. However, just from being on the PTR and trying out the new buffs to Shaman, I can tell you this much - the Devs have not, in any way, addressed the actual issues with Resto Shaman, which are that our heals are far too positionally dependent and we have very little mobility when we need it. The fact that they have tied one of our T13 set bonuses to our ONLY source of mobility (Spiritwalker's Grace) means that we are going to be shooting ourselves in the foot repeatedly, because that was a CD that you saved for when you NEEDED to move, and now we're going to be using it on CD (meaning that when we NEED to move, it very well may not be up).You say that you would bring a Holy Priest or Resto Shaman over a Druid in almost every encounter, but I really don't understand why you would say that. Every bit of theorycrafting currently supports bringing a Resto Druid over those two classes in every situation other than Baelroc. There is a reason why Paragon chose not to take a single Shaman to their Heroic Rags kill, and why Shaman have lagged behind every other class on that fight. That you guys are getting nerfed is regrettable, but considering how strong you are in current content, are you REALLY surprised?
10-05-2011 @ 7:23PM
the way to fix shaman isn't to nerf druids. The way to fix shaman is to... fix shaman. Which is what they're doing with the sizable buff to riptide and the huge mechanic change to ancestral healing.They're also nerfing druid throughput in the same patch. You guys keep talking like nothing is changing on the PTR right now. They are fixing holy priest & shaman mechanic flaws and adjusting the tuning of your throughput to make it higher.They're nerfing druids throughput but not addressing our mechanics. I'm sorry you are in a bad place in 4.2 but that has zero relationship with what healer class balance looks like on the Deathwing fight in 4.3.
10-05-2011 @ 9:46PM
This isn't about fixing Shaman or *just* nerfing druids. The post is about how the toolbox for druid sucks. and Druids need a cool CD like SLT for reduction or for tank healing. Those aren't the druid niche. The druid niche is HoT healing, and you have a great cd in tranquility for raid healing. Your toolbox isn't broken, you have the same tools that the other healers have with some CDs that they don't have, just like they have a niche and CDs that you don't have. The balance may be off, that is what the PTR is about, trying to get the right balance among the tools. Trying to say that you won't be able to raid heal without an op -according to GC- Wildgrowth sounds like you are out of touch with Blizz's ideas on how healing should work. They want to make you think hard about how you are healing, they want you to have to chain and combo heals to perform well. My disc and holy priest team and I are aware of how we have to do these things to be adequate raid healers. That druids are going to be forced to use the tools (which may have to be tuned) that they have at hand is a good thing instead of enabling them to spam a single heal. It is the same reason I am happy with the changes to Chain Heal from Lich King. I don't spam CH anymore, I think and have to make decisions. It is harder, not broken.
10-06-2011 @ 4:35AM
@HeatherAhahahahahaahahahahahahahahahahaha...Ahahahahahahahahahahahahahaahahahahahahaha...A Shaman. Complaining about DRUID throughput? Seriously?Sure, we can do more raid HPS than you. We also have a much better dance animation. Both of these are irrelevant. You know why? Cause we can't single target heal for SHIT. Our single most powerful heal... the spell we have that's supposed to dazzle with its big numbers and save a squishy deeps from death? It doesn't work. Your big heal heals for THREE TIMES AS MUCH. I can bring 5 deeps from 99% health to 100% health with my oh-so-OP aoe heal. You can heal the tank from 30% to full with your big heal. It's not our fault your raid leader has the mind of a demented child, and it's not Blizzard's problem that you get sat because of that fact. The problems resto druids have are intrinsic to the game. Your problems are not.I play a druid, a shaman, a priest, and a pally, and, of them all, the shaman is the worst offender in the balance department. I should have known you were full of shit when you were bitching about your cds, but here I am, writing a reply. How idiotic is that?
10-06-2011 @ 5:16AM
@ira.domineWhich is why Resto Druids dominate every single fight in Firelands except for Baelroc.Which is why Resto Shamans are routinely sat for Resto Druids because in almost every scenario, bringing a Resto Druid - regardless of skill level - is just plain BETTER for your raid than bringing a Resto Shaman.I want you to take a look at this: http://www.worldoflogs.com/rankings/players/Firelands/hps/Browse for a bit.Notice a pattern? Oh wait...the leaf, and the bear paw. On every single page. On every single fight except for Baelroc (and, gee golly - they're even showing up there on 10 mans!).Notice an absence? Oh wait, was that Resto Shamans that are missing? Why yes. In fact, Resto Shamans only have ONE fight where they are parsing. There are a total of THREE rated in the Top 10 for for Majordomo 25 man Normal. And only ONE rated in the top 10 for Majordomo 25 man Hardmode.This is the fight that is supposed to be our BEST fight, and it's completely and utterly DOMINATED by Resto Druids.And you know? SO IS EVERY OTHER ENCOUNTER other than Baelroc (which is uniformly going to Disc Priests, because of how their class interacts with the fight mechanics). Resto Shamans don't even show up on Heroic Rags until #94 on the listing (the next one is #228 in the listing, lol). There are 85 Resto Druids parsing on Heroic Rags. #31 on Heroic Beth'tilac (one of only TWO in the top 100). There are 91 Resto Druids in the top 100 on that parse list. Rhyolith Heroic has FOUR Resto Shamans parsing in the top 100. There are 92 Resto Druids in the top 100 on that parse list.It gets worse if you consider 10 man heroics. There is not a single - not even one - Resto Shaman in the top 100 for Heroic Rags. There is a single - that's right, JUST ONE - non-Druid parsing for the top 100 for Heroic Beth'tilac. Unsurprisingly, it's a Disc Priest. Every other parse in the top 100 list is a Resto Druid. I'm not kidding - it's every single one. In fact, you can go for pages with only seeing Resto Druids, with a few Disc Priests and the very occasional Resto Shaman interspersed here and there. Alysrazor Heroic does not have a single Shaman parsing in the top 100. Heroic Rhyolith has exactly ONE. There are 97 Resto Druids in the top 100 for Heroic Rhyolith on 10 man. Majordomo - arguably the STRONGEST fight for a Resto Shaman - has the highest number of Resto Shaman parsing at seven. There are SEVENTY-EIGHT Resto Druids in the top 100.Even in the fights where Resto Shaman are supposed to be the strongest, we simply cannot compete with Resto Druids at this time. The only ones who can are Holy Paladins and, to an extent, Disc Priests. No class should be able to dominate content the way Resto Druids are currently dominating.So, you can scream to the high heavens that GC is wrong, and you guys don't need a nerf because Shamans are SO MUCH BETTER at everything than you. But the simple fact of the matter is that the numbers are telling a completely different story. Thankfully, GC apparently has noticed. Sorry, but the nerf bat comes for everyone - even you.
10-06-2011 @ 4:45PM
The OP was about raid healing, not tank healing. Allison was lamenting on how the resto druid AOE healing toolbox without WG is bad. "Once WG is on cooldown, the druid's other options for AOE healing are all ... well, terrible to nonexistent." This is what I disagree with. I hate talking about numbers, but it seems that a couple people really are set in this, so from the WoWhead tooltips, without any mana regen and not overhealing, a Resto druid will be able to toss out three rejuvs, one WG, and one Eff+SM for a total heal of 52675 across a max of 11 toons. Choosing Tranquility vice one rejuv and SM yields 55311 across a max of 13 toons. At that point you are out of mana. A resto Shaman can, put out one RT, one HR and two CH for a total heal of 37642 across a max of 15 toons.Not using tranquility, Druids average 4789 per toon for that round of healing. Shaman average 2510 per toon. As you start to add regeneration the disparity of the current system grows even more.4.3 numbersDruid heals in one mana round for 48958 or 4451 per toon, the shaman heals for 2622 per toon. The difference her is when regen begins to be accounted for. The growth in disparity is at a much slower rate.Here is what this means, the Druid AOE toolbox is plenty powerful enough in 4.3 to keep druids in their niche of raid healing.When we turn to Tank healing, which is not the point of the post in any way shape or form, but Ira was pretty insistent on equating shaman tank healing with druid aoe heals, there is a different story, absolutely. Shaman are able to bring one target from very low health to near full, druids simply can't do that. Does that mean that the druid single target toolbox is broken? It might, but that wasn't allison's point. Shaman can make heroic heals once in a while, and we have to know it is coming. As I wrote somewhere else on here, our Hallelujah 120-150k heal takes 4 GCDs and a crit to happen, that is longer than most boss cast times, so it is pretty rare, and when we do that, we have to wait 2 minutes to do it again. We have strong single heals, but that ability doesn't make our raid healing any better. We are good at different things. Druid reliance on a great thing, however, doesn't mean the rest of the stuff sucks. It doesn't. Even after the nerf druid healing will be strong, as it should be. Shaman single target healing will be stronger, as it needs to be.
First time? A confirmation email will be sent to you after submitting.
Members enter your username and password.
Enter your AOL or AIM screenname and password.
Please keep your comments relevant to this blog entry. Email addresses are never displayed, but they are required to confirm your comments.
When you enter your name and email address, you'll be sent a link to confirm your comment, and a password. To leave another comment, just use that password.
To create a live link, simply type the URL (including http://) or email address and we will make it a live link for you. You can put up to 3 URLs in your comments. Line breaks and paragraphs are automatically converted — no need to use <p> or <br /> tags.