Today in WoW: Thursday, Oct. 13, 2011

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Blue posts
As others have pointed out, your 1.35% is just wrong due to the stats MMO is stating, but whatever, we're not going to reveal any of our internal numbers to show how wrong you are, or discount the numbers posted on MMO for that matter. I will say they're likely as accurate as they can be. Meaning, they're wrong, but at no fault of theirs simply due to the data they have available to them. While we do have data we pull and review very regularly, it's not always a true measure of success or failure without considering the context.
We try and make content for all of our players. It's both a blessing and a curse that the WoW player base is as large and diverse as it is. "Hardcore" players for example tend to dramatically underestimate the skill gap between themselves and the vast majority of other players. A lot of games handle this problem through multiple difficulty settings. That is harder to do in a game as content rich as World of Warcraft, but it is something we're looking at more and more with new features like Raid Finder essentially adding a more accessible setting.
But even with a system (we believe) as awesome as the Raid Finder, there are no simple solutions.
Players are motivated to raid (and do any content for that matter) for a lot of different reasons. A sizeable number of players are satisfied with seeing most of the game content once. If they kill the dragon or slay the Lich King, they (appropriately) feel like they have won the game. That view is pretty heretical to the traditional raider, who is used to working for weeks to defeat a boss and then spending the next few weeks or months farming that boss so that their group has a leg up for the next tier of content. Other players can be motivated by gear, and once they accrue their rewards they are done with the content. Others are motivated by the challenge, and if things are too easy, they lose interest. These players also tend to assume that everyone shares their mindset and they will be happy to wipe on a fight over and over and over with hopes of improving. In reality, we know from data that a lot of players might be willing to wipe a few times, and then after that, they're done raiding and potentially even playing. It might be easy to dismiss those players and argue raiding is not for them, but that's not really our design goal. Raids represent an enormous commitment of developer resources. In the same way that we would never make 20 new Arenas just for Gladiator-level players, we don't want to develop a raid that only 2% of our raiders can see. We will make sure that there are challenging encounters for players who enjoy that sort of thing (as many of us professional game developers do), but then our goal will be to, over time, broaden the potential audience by bringing the content difficulty down. We think the shock with Firelands for some players was that the nerfs were so severe instead of gradual. For the 4.3 Dragon Soul raid we plan on gradually nerfing it over time, sort of like we did with Icecrown Citadel, except by nerfing the content instead of buffing the players.
There is another portion of players that are just not interested in raiding no matter how accessible it is, and that's fine too, but we do keep track of how player behavior in the past may match player behavior currently or even in the future as we make these choices. Overall our goals are to ultimately get as many people seeing and downing Deathwing as saw the end of Naxxramas in Wrath of the Lich King. That's not all going to be day 1 of the patch, or even in the first month, but with the Raid Finder and gradual lowering of content we think we can create that initial super high barrier to test the true worth of the hardest of the hardcore, while also providing some fun and accessible content to a much wider swath of players.
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Yeah, we need to offer a lot of different kinds of content so that non-raiders still have things to do, or even for raiders to do on off nights. The Molten Front dailies were really popular for several weeks, but like all content, players eventually move on. We hope the DMF and even Transmog will provide some non-raid focused activities in 4.3, but beyond that we have plans to do a lot more. And when you see them you'll be all like :O and we'll be all like :D and then people on the forums will still be all like(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
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The point of not divulging statistics is that they are only one part of what drives overall goals and development. Unfortunately, the fundamental truth is that people put too much behind numbers (case in point, posts in this thread and a couple other dozen that sprung up because of the MMO post), and will build entire cases on them alone with no thought for context or meaning.
Bottom line is that no matter what numbers we show you, it's not going to make any situations 'better'. From time to time we show StarCraft II players literal win/loss %, as accurate as they can possibly be pulled from the source itself, and they're either ignored (because players simply don't want to believe their experiences are "wrong") or laughed at as being some underhanded plot to feed them misinformation.
Numbers don't win us anything. They don't win you anything. Conversations are worth having - ones based on experiences and feelings. We know what the numbers say, but they don't mean anything if you are still unhappy with your enjoyment of the game and your perception of its direction.
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You're spot on, and while we were coming to some of those same realizations not too long ago, unfortunately (or fortunately depending on your outlook) it's not something we realized in time for Dragon Soul. But we do plan to act on those realizations before too long.
We try and make content for all of our players. It's both a blessing and a curse that the WoW player base is as large and diverse as it is. "Hardcore" players for example tend to dramatically underestimate the skill gap between themselves and the vast majority of other players. A lot of games handle this problem through multiple difficulty settings. That is harder to do in a game as content rich as World of Warcraft, but it is something we're looking at more and more with new features like Raid Finder essentially adding a more accessible setting.
But even with a system (we believe) as awesome as the Raid Finder, there are no simple solutions.
Players are motivated to raid (and do any content for that matter) for a lot of different reasons. A sizeable number of players are satisfied with seeing most of the game content once. If they kill the dragon or slay the Lich King, they (appropriately) feel like they have won the game. That view is pretty heretical to the traditional raider, who is used to working for weeks to defeat a boss and then spending the next few weeks or months farming that boss so that their group has a leg up for the next tier of content. Other players can be motivated by gear, and once they accrue their rewards they are done with the content. Others are motivated by the challenge, and if things are too easy, they lose interest. These players also tend to assume that everyone shares their mindset and they will be happy to wipe on a fight over and over and over with hopes of improving. In reality, we know from data that a lot of players might be willing to wipe a few times, and then after that, they're done raiding and potentially even playing. It might be easy to dismiss those players and argue raiding is not for them, but that's not really our design goal. Raids represent an enormous commitment of developer resources. In the same way that we would never make 20 new Arenas just for Gladiator-level players, we don't want to develop a raid that only 2% of our raiders can see. We will make sure that there are challenging encounters for players who enjoy that sort of thing (as many of us professional game developers do), but then our goal will be to, over time, broaden the potential audience by bringing the content difficulty down. We think the shock with Firelands for some players was that the nerfs were so severe instead of gradual. For the 4.3 Dragon Soul raid we plan on gradually nerfing it over time, sort of like we did with Icecrown Citadel, except by nerfing the content instead of buffing the players.
There is another portion of players that are just not interested in raiding no matter how accessible it is, and that's fine too, but we do keep track of how player behavior in the past may match player behavior currently or even in the future as we make these choices. Overall our goals are to ultimately get as many people seeing and downing Deathwing as saw the end of Naxxramas in Wrath of the Lich King. That's not all going to be day 1 of the patch, or even in the first month, but with the Raid Finder and gradual lowering of content we think we can create that initial super high barrier to test the true worth of the hardest of the hardcore, while also providing some fun and accessible content to a much wider swath of players.
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Quote:
I do hope the Darkmoon Faire provides enjoyment Bashiok! I'm looking for new things to do while I'm not raiding for sadly other parts of the game just doesn't do that anymore=/.
I do hope the Darkmoon Faire provides enjoyment Bashiok! I'm looking for new things to do while I'm not raiding for sadly other parts of the game just doesn't do that anymore=/.
Yeah, we need to offer a lot of different kinds of content so that non-raiders still have things to do, or even for raiders to do on off nights. The Molten Front dailies were really popular for several weeks, but like all content, players eventually move on. We hope the DMF and even Transmog will provide some non-raid focused activities in 4.3, but beyond that we have plans to do a lot more. And when you see them you'll be all like :O and we'll be all like :D and then people on the forums will still be all like(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
-----
The point of not divulging statistics is that they are only one part of what drives overall goals and development. Unfortunately, the fundamental truth is that people put too much behind numbers (case in point, posts in this thread and a couple other dozen that sprung up because of the MMO post), and will build entire cases on them alone with no thought for context or meaning.
Bottom line is that no matter what numbers we show you, it's not going to make any situations 'better'. From time to time we show StarCraft II players literal win/loss %, as accurate as they can possibly be pulled from the source itself, and they're either ignored (because players simply don't want to believe their experiences are "wrong") or laughed at as being some underhanded plot to feed them misinformation.
Numbers don't win us anything. They don't win you anything. Conversations are worth having - ones based on experiences and feelings. We know what the numbers say, but they don't mean anything if you are still unhappy with your enjoyment of the game and your perception of its direction.
-----
Quote:
I would add that the reason for raiding issues is that the development team adds new mechanics and increases the complexity of encounters the raiding "population" is not evolving at the same rate. If all guilds stayed together for 5 and 6 years then it wouldn't matter. The fact is that several members of my current guild have limited raiding experience. They have to learn 'raiding' from scratch.
In Vanilla WOW 99% of the raiding population had about the same raiding experiences. Today I would say there is much greater variation. That's what makes raiding so frustrating to the majority of guilds. An applicant may have great gear from valor points but have limited actual experience in raid combat and mechanics.
Professional sports has the same problem as older players retire and new players come up from college but thats the same for every team.If these teams played some simulated "great" team they would probably struggle. Perhaps the new lower tier raiding will help.
I would add that the reason for raiding issues is that the development team adds new mechanics and increases the complexity of encounters the raiding "population" is not evolving at the same rate. If all guilds stayed together for 5 and 6 years then it wouldn't matter. The fact is that several members of my current guild have limited raiding experience. They have to learn 'raiding' from scratch.
In Vanilla WOW 99% of the raiding population had about the same raiding experiences. Today I would say there is much greater variation. That's what makes raiding so frustrating to the majority of guilds. An applicant may have great gear from valor points but have limited actual experience in raid combat and mechanics.
Professional sports has the same problem as older players retire and new players come up from college but thats the same for every team.If these teams played some simulated "great" team they would probably struggle. Perhaps the new lower tier raiding will help.
You're spot on, and while we were coming to some of those same realizations not too long ago, unfortunately (or fortunately depending on your outlook) it's not something we realized in time for Dragon Soul. But we do plan to act on those realizations before too long.
WoW news from other sites
- MMO-Champion Patch 4.3 - PTR Build 14849
- Wowhead News Patch 4.3 - PTR Build 14849 - Spell Changes, Darkmoon Faire Replica Items, and More
- The OverAchiever: Guide to Hallow's End 2011
- Is Tyrael this year's BlizzCon swag statue?
- Leader short stories continue with Varian Wrynn: Blood of Our Fathers
- WoW Rookie: So you know nothing about WoW
- World of Wardrobe: Traipsing around Tempest Keep for tier 5
- World of WarCrafts: Making a custom RPG, Warcraft-style
- Patch 4.3 PTR: Replica items bring back classic looks
- Choose My Adventure: It's a new day
- Addon Spotlight: More information from Visual Combat Table
- Patch 4.3 PTR patch notes updated for Oct. 13
- Blizzard auctioning off old servers for charity
- 15 Minutes of Fame: Counseling people who happen to play games
- WoW Moviewatch: Largest crit in the world
- The Queue: Healing is ________ since the start of Cataclysm
- Around Azeroth: Darkness on the edge of town
- Breakfast Topic: How do you decide which race to roll?
- Star Trek Online's free-to-play starships prepare to leave spacedock
- Apple looking to add avatars to Game Center, patent filings show
- Catwoman unlocked in Batman: Arkham City through online pass
Filed under: Today in WoW






Reader Comments (Page 1 of 1)
MattKrotzer Oct 14th 2011 1:09AM
"And when you see them you'll be all like :O and we'll be all like :D and then people on the forums will still be all like(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻"
Bashiok has now become the greatest Blizzard poster of all time.
Literaltruth Oct 14th 2011 4:31AM
Gotta admit that I can't really work out what the " (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻"" means - or if it's just random symbols.
Apart from that, I agree - Bashiok is awesome.
razion Oct 14th 2011 6:08AM
@Literaltruth: It's an emote meaning quite literally 'flipping the table' [with "(╯°□°)╯" being the person, "︵" being the flipping motion, and "┻━┻" being the table {flipping in mid-air}] as people tend to do when they hear something, and then over-react accordingly by destroying furniture (like... punching a hole in the wall).
Arrohon Oct 14th 2011 6:39AM
(╯°□°) is very much a face. ╯︵ ┻━┻ looks like it should be a face, but ┻━┻ is confusing me a bit.
Overall, Bashiok wins forum post of the year!
MusedMoose Oct 14th 2011 8:18AM
Seriously. ^_^ When I read that yesterday, I knew that it would be very, very hard for any Blizzard poster ever to top that. Gotta love their understanding of their customers.
razion Oct 14th 2011 1:11AM
"We hope the DMF and even Transmog will provide some non-raid focused activities in 4.3, but beyond that we have plans to do a lot more. And when you see them you'll be all like :O and we'll be all like :D and then people on the forums will still be all like(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻"
Priceless. I love Bashiok.
Dinger Oct 14th 2011 1:13AM
Occupy Firelands: We are the 98.65%
GEZUS Oct 14th 2011 1:48AM
Wow Jumped the shark a few months ago. All they do now is apologize for all the mess they created.
jfofla Oct 14th 2011 3:21AM
Gezus, you need to put the crack pipe down.
yaqi4276 Oct 14th 2011 2:17AM
"Conversations are worth having - ones based on experiences and feelings."
LOL but as a science student at uni, our daily conversation is always about numbers.
Numbers have meaning, it's just that people often misinterpret numbers.
vmg Oct 14th 2011 2:54AM
Numbers without context don't have meaning. Especially in science. Don't ever write a number that isn't followed by units.
dk Oct 14th 2011 2:29AM
as a philosophy, this posting is brilliant.
chaosdefined Oct 14th 2011 4:40AM
I like the idea of easing into raiding for those without much experience. I haven't raided properly since Patch 4.2 as I just became bored with the game and Firelands didn't excite me at all. I miss raiding though and I can't wait to get back into it for Dragon Soul...problem is I don't have a guild. They fell apart.
I want to apply for a good raiding guild, but none will take me as I've only ever done two bosses in Firelands. I don't want to join a medium raiding guild who take anyone just to get experience and leave them when a better guild takes me, because then I'd feel like a bad player.
At least Raid Finder is a new hope for me, as is this lower tier of raiding to help me build up the experience that good 'teams' want from me.
Blayze Oct 14th 2011 4:48AM
I hope the easy raid difficulty is a faceroll for everyone. I loved Babyfang 25 runs back in Wrath.
XytheX Oct 14th 2011 6:11PM
What an amazing well thought out bit of insight, if this really is the majority attitude at blizzard then we can expect good things for the game to keep coming.
DarkWalker Oct 14th 2011 9:36AM
My current problem with WoW is not exactly raid difficulty. It's that I couldn't gear up for raiding by playing 30-minutes chunks at a time, like I could in WotLK (less than 10 minutes of LFD queues, 15 minutes runs).
I will consider returning when there is content I actually find entertaining which can be mostly done in 30-minutes chunks, with one or, at most, two multiple hours sessions per week (during the weekend); i.e., either I need to be able to gear up to raids in 30-minutes chunks and do the raids on my longer weekend play slots, or there needs to be something I find challenging that can be done in 30 minutes chunks, with the time needed to assemble a PUG for it included in those 30 minutes. But then, even if Blizzard can deliver that, WoW will be more likely competing with GW2 for my game time - and given that I really like the ideas of free server transfers, free respecs, instant travel, infinite PvP builds, no loot rolls, no gear progression in PvP, all classes able to fulfill any role, and "raids" that don't need/can't be previously assembled (the event boss battles), Blizzard will have their work cut for them if they want me back.
Nick Oct 14th 2011 9:56AM
"normal" heroics take around 30 minutes. Queue times are very short for them too. I'm inside in under 5 mins on my DPS, and usually instant on my tank.
Baradin Hold can be done in under 5 mins.
PvP takes as long as you want it to and can be used to get JP gear.
There are 30 minute options there if you want them, I personally hope we never go back to the way dungeons were in Wrath, they are too much like AOE fests already imo, but that cant be helped due to the way gear inflation works this far into an expansion.
DarkWalker Oct 14th 2011 11:38AM
I disregard PvP in WoW. Or, more to the point, I usually don't play PvP when there is some kind of character power progression, and WoW actually managed to make me hate it's PvP. The longest stretch of time I ever played WoW's PvP was getting the School of Hard Knocks achievement on two characters - in the end I just bubbled my way into it (by bubbling any team member who seemed poised to do the task before me) and came out actually hating WoW's PvP with a passion (apart from pesky seasonal achievements - where now, out of spite for WoW's PvP, I won't even attempt to help my team - I never set foot into a BG again).
The MMO where I love playing PvP is DCUO, thanks to the Legend mode (where players use pre-made characters). I'm really looking forward to GW2's PvP, BTW (standard equipment, no gear progression, unlimited number of saved PvP specs that can be switched at will outside combat; there's no way for a character to be simply more powerful than another, or at least no way that the opposing player can't copy in 5 minutes or less).
As for the 30 minutes limit, during week days, it's usually a hard limit. I do my gaming during weekdays on the short breaks I get between work and school. If I'm in the middle of the last boss's fight when the time runs out, I will ditch the fight and log out, no matter what (and, in the process, usually wipe the group, since I most often play as a tank). So, if I'm not absolutely sure I will be finished before my time runs out, I don't even attempt it. Until WoW can provide entertaining content for someone with my gameplay limitations, it's just not the game for me.