Scattered Shots: Improving hunter PVP

Hunter PVP is in a bad state right now. This does not mean that you can't get Gladiator with a hunter, but it does mean you have to be way better to do it than if you were to play, say, a warlock. You also have to do it in a very small subset of viable team compositions, where your warlock alt could succeed in a large variety of team compositions.
Before you burn a hole through that "add comment" button arguing with me about viability and how Arena representation isn't worth the pixels it's displayed on, remember that I'm arguing that it takes more skill to succeed in PVP as a hunter. I'm not arguing that you can't do it, and I know that Arena class representation isn't a perfect measure of class balance. The same way some specs (like BM) are underrepresented in the top 100 PVE raid parses, the highest-rated PVP players in the game tend to play classes they feel they will do best, which skews the representation farther away from some perfectly viable spec/class combos. Arena representation is, however, one quantifiable number we can look into for insight.
The Arena representation for hunters is low. Go to Arenastats.com to see how low. As you change your rating filter higher, it gets lower, and it's never above 4%. What this means is that very few people succeed at obtaining high ratings with their hunters. If you check the graph of the top 3v3 team comps just below, you'll notice that only one of the top 10 samples on the graph has a hunter in it, and it's the lowest one. This technically doesn't show us anything but the fact that hunters are unpopular in PVP, however I believe it's fair to infer that this is at least partly due to their being unbalanced to the point of not being fun.
I hear you furiously typing that Blizzard has started to spend more effort balancing around rated BGs, so my entire argument is moot. To this, I'd point you to the World of Wargraphs analysis of RBG class representation -- hunters don't get a represention bump when you raise the number of players on the team. We're about as common on 2,400, 2,500, or 2,800 RBG teams as we are on 3s teams at those ratings. If I had to hazard a guess about why this is, I'd say that the combination of our burst damage, control, team buffs, and survivability just doesn't stack up to the other options. Our "special sauce," traps and peeling, are nothing compared to (for example) Smoke Bomb or Death Grip.
So what's wrong with hunters?
My good friend Eidotrope wrote an excellent article about one of the reasons we suffer in PVP: focus. Essentially, we need to use focus to do damage, and while the damage we do when we're allowed to actively regenerate focus through Steady/Cobra Shots is good, it's very easy for skilled opponents to shut us down. Want to stop a Steady Shot? Get into minimum range, get out of maximum range, or get out of line of sight. You can do it when we start a shot or you can do it when the cast is about to finish. Bonus points if you put a cast speed debuff on us. It takes considerably less skill to reduce the active focus regeneration of a hunter than it does for a hunter to actively regenerate focus on an opponent trying to prevent it. All an opponent has to do is the same thing they'd do to any other ranged class: "pillar hump" (break line of sight). They even get a bonus free pillar on all maps that's 10 yards across centered on the hunter.
If this design were balanced by overpowering the damage we could do when we had our opponent cornered with the proper use of Disengage, Concussive Shot, Wing Clip, Entrapment, and Master's Call, we'd be imbalanced in other places (raiding, for example). As it is, when we're left alone to turret (or when we're better at getting shots off than our target is at avoiding them), our damage is good but not obviously better than our damage-dealing competition.
The current solution to many class balance issues has been to shift away from 3s balance and work on RBGs. The reason for this is that there's a large benefit in bringing a variety of classes, and as you increase the team size, this benefit begins to outweigh the differences between equally balanced class/specs. This may help the designers avoid having to balance each viable PVP spec around each comp they might find themselves in, but it's not a solution for hunters. The hunter class is fundamentally unbalanced in PVP and requires some changes to the class itself. Done properly, these changes will ensure hunters can earn a place in competitive endgame PVP.
How to fix hunters
Hunters need something really valuable in PVP in order to carve out a niche. Even if it's something as simple as face-melting burst damage, each class or spec has something it's really good at. The first design consideration, though, has to be overall balance. Ghostcrawler (Blizzard's lead systems designer) recently mentioned that Blizzard is happy with hunter PVE damage when they were adjusting the attack power buffs to exclude us. Any PVP change that's made to the class needs to be something that won't throw PVE balance way out whack.
Highest on my list are the PVP set bonuses. They stink, and it's a huge opportunity to change hunter PVP without really affecting PVE balance. Ideally, PVP set gear is something that hunters will only want to wear while PVPing; however since the PVE four-piece set has been historically hard to obtain, it's not uncommon to see people rocking three PVE pieces and two PVP pieces to benefit from the 70 agility. Instead of directly increasing how hard our shots hit (which is valuable no matter what you're shooting at), these bonuses represent an opportunity to improve the way hunters play in PVP:
- One of the Season 11 bonuses could be to remove the minimum range. This would put us on equal footing with other ranged classes; we could be LOSed, but not by someone closing in on us. We'd still lose more than other ranged damage dealers when we're LOSed and unable to find a target where we could cast a focus regen shot, as they only lose a global cooldown and we potentially push back our next signature shot.
- Another Season 11 bonus could be something that helps us regen focus. Something like the two-piece T13 set bonus ... Actually, unless these Season 11 set bonuses are improved soon, PVPers will be forced to choose between raiding to get two-piece T13 and losing games to hunters who do.
Next on my list are the skills and talents that nobody touches:
- Point of No Escape is on the second tier of survival and has never once been specced into -- not even by accident or for testing. Point of No Escape could be made into something that prevents or reduces the effect of cast slows.
- Widow Venom costs focus and doesn't prevent enough healing to be a better use of our focus than some damaging attack. All Widow Venom would need to become useful and used in PVP (but not PVE) is a damage component that doesn't stack with Serpent Sting, while keeping its heal debuff. Or it could be made to randomly proc a reset of Master's Call's cooldown.
Usually, the harder it is to land a crowd control ability, the better it is. Traps are cool and define our class, but the process of using them against a player takes focus and an extra global cooldown, as well as usually a Scatter Shot to prevent the target from scooting away before it's armed. It also breaks on damage and can be easily deliberately eaten by someone other than its intended target (usually when its intended target can cleanse it).
Don't get me wrong, traps at our feet remain an awesome part of our class. That slight hesitation in the eyes of the rogue deciding whether to Shadowstep you or the warrior about to Charge are one of the things that make having a minimum range almost worth it.
One solution would be to make traps placed at our feet remained unchanged, but make spending focus on an instant and macroable trap launcher caused the launched trap to arm instantly. Alternatively, they could simply change freezing trap to be a targetable CC, no launching needed. Also, whether it's direct or not, our primary method of CC needs to be made to prevent damage like a Cyclone.
This would simplify hunter control without dumbing down the class to the point where the exceptionally skilled wouldn't stand out.
Filed under: (Hunter) Scattered Shots
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Reader Comments (Page 2 of 3)
jordan Oct 14th 2011 4:31PM
Why not just remove the focus cost on widow venom?
Ground Oct 14th 2011 4:35PM
Hey Frostheim,
Mostly right. However, I'm not sure I like your suggested fixes enough.
1. Targetted traps (not target circle, at feet of targetted mob so we can use em like mage sheep). Or at least eliminate the graphic that shows everyone where the trap lands so they can easily side step it.
2. Several of the arenas have "exploits" where pet pathing gets bugged and your pet will get stuck. Every experienced arena player knows how to get your pet stuck in those spots. These need to be eliminated entirely.
3. Hunters need more interrupts (or shorter cooldowns on existing ones).
4. Bring back Beastial Wrath and/or Deterrence making us unstoppable for a few seconds. Maybe not 20 like before, but perhaps 6 or so would help a lot.
5. Fix burst damage. It's pretty silly that a hunter can only take a stunned and AFK DK down to 50% health without being completely out of cooldowns and focus. This may be BM only though. I do better in both MM and SV.
6. And last but not least, eliminate pillar humping. This would be as simple as making a small step around the bottom of each pillar that would prevent players from actually contacting the wall as they run around. It would make breaking LoS take a few more steps, which is all we really need.
Ground (Doomhammer)
Basil Berntsen Oct 14th 2011 5:50PM
Euripides, actually. Frostheim reserves the business end of his gun for dragons, however I'm a little more indiscriminate and will kill dragons or players. And I specifically mentioned targeted traps...
notmuchtosay Oct 14th 2011 4:44PM
I've played a hunter as an alt. What I hoped was more of a ranger class, turned out to be a very boring rotation of
1) send in pet
2) unload everything on target
3) loot
4) repeat
I did try my hand at PvP in the level 60 and 70 brackets, and had some fun. But for me, the pet was the problem.
What I would like to have seen done, is remove the ability to summon a pet when mastering in the survival tree. And when playing survival remove min range for the ranged weapon. The talent tree would play more like a ranger, and without the issue of minimum range. Use traps like a true survivalist should.
tibbelkrunk Oct 14th 2011 4:52PM
*~ Listen to me while I describe what it's like in my dream land... ~*
1. Arcane Shot no longer costs focus, but now grants 4 focus and is usable in melee range. It deals damage approximately equal to Steady Shot. (Arcane damage is weird as a hunter anyway, so it's perfectly okay with me if it violates the "hunter feel" of the minimum range too.)
2. Cobra Shot is instant, costs 22 focus, and becomes what Arcane Shot used to be -- except it also can now be used in melee range. Talents, set bonuses, etc, that used to reference Arcane Shot now reference Cobra Shot instead. Cobra Shot still refreshes Serpent Sting. BM gets Rhumba (come on, that idea was awesome), or some other abilities boosting Cobra Shot.
3. Steady Shot is still a 2.0-sec cast, and becomes the default focus regen shot for all hunters while standing still. If your Black Arrow is on the target, Steady Shot deals shadow damage instead of physical damage.
4. Aspect of the Fox is gone. Aspect dancing is lame.
5. Point of No Escape (SV talent) -- Damage-over-time abilities deal 50%/100% reduced damage to targets frozen by your Freezing Trap.
6. Improved Serpent Sting (SV talent) -- Serpent Sting deals some instant damage, has an increased critical strike chance, and now also has a 50%/100% chance to also apply Widow Venom.
7. When Black Arrow is dispelled, it deals all its remaining damage instantly to the dispeller.
The net effect:
- Hunters get 2 shots they can use in melee range, Arcane Shot (to build focus) and Cobra Shot (to dump focus).
- Hunters still want to stay at range use their signature shots, but they're not completely helpless with a mage in their face.
- Running circles around a pillar no longer exempts you from a hunter's damage or denies the hunter half his focus.
- DoTs don't suck to use as a hunter or when you have a hunter on your team. SV doesn't suck to use in PvP.
- Hunter PvE rotations are unchanged, with the exception of using Cobra Shot the way Arcane Shot used to be used. Also, no switching to a different aspect to do damage on the move. The trade-off is the slightly lower focus regeneration of Arcane Shot vs Steady Shot.
*~ Snaps out of it ~*
Oh, right.
Um, 5% more AP for BM.
Basil Berntsen Oct 14th 2011 5:53PM
That BM buff is aimed at fixing hunter PVE dps, not at fixing PVP. It doesn't hurt, of course.
lividmonkey Oct 14th 2011 5:10PM
A high damage AoE knockback with a short (or kinda short) cooldown (like a shaman's thunderstorm) would be a welcome addition. It would deter people from getting too close to the hunter, and not really be viable in PvE. An extra melee attack or two may be helpful as well. They can keep it in the idea of a ranged fighter too, such as a low power attack that will hit the target with the butt of his/her gun or crossbow or stab it with an arrow if using a bow. That attack can then stun the target for 5 seconds and give time for the hunter to get away. Again, not very viable in PvE but would work wonders in PvP.
Gimim Oct 14th 2011 5:23PM
A possible solution to players being able to side step hunter traps would be to implement a system where a camo hunter ALSO launches a camo trap that would either be much more difficult to see or practically invisible. It could add a new element to arena teams where your arena mate would try and kite the enemy into your invisible trap.
Just a suggestion :)
Basil Berntsen Oct 14th 2011 5:51PM
A trap launched or placed while in camo is not visible to opponents.
Matrillik Oct 14th 2011 5:40PM
There's no way that picture is right. Priests are far too high and warlocks are way too low.
Basil Berntsen Oct 14th 2011 5:52PM
Priests can heal (disc) or damage (shadow). Their representation is conversely higher. The world of wargraphs link will allow you to drill down by spec.
Bheema Oct 14th 2011 6:01PM
I find it funny that we hunters are able to solo the hardest raids and dungeons but find our self sucking in pvp. I think its because our biggest feature/advantage our pets are so much less useful in pvp. The pets bring in buffs , CCs and stuff like masters call, roar of sac and intervene but these are so much harder to master.
Basil Berntsen Oct 14th 2011 6:08PM
You can't get past 1800 unless you are using all of your pet abilities and CC. Mastering them simply puts you on par with lesser geared characters played by lesser skilled players.
Bheema Oct 14th 2011 7:04PM
And whats our role in BGs ?
- We are not Flag carriers
- We are not great defenders
- We can't sneak in and ninja capture points like rogues and ferals do
All i can do in BGs is run in with the main group , hang back , CC enemy healers and dps the furthest person away from me :(
We need more roles.
detailbear Oct 14th 2011 8:31PM
I've only been playing a hunter for a short while now, but how about protector?
Guard
Set your pet to guard a player or NPC. Your pet will circle the protected character and attack any hostile mob or player that breaches the protection radius.
In PVP, you could designate the flag carrier (or a squishy character) and Assist your pet (you can still do that, right?) either full time or as it intercepts a rogue, warrior or other melee spec approaching your protected character. It's not quite a Power Word: Shield, but it's another function that fits the hunter flavour. In PVE, it might help a bit with Escort quests or Guard the Flag scenarios, but I don't think it would skew the balance too much. If it did, maybe it could be a PVP-only function.
Bgrim Oct 14th 2011 6:47PM
I agree with this article. My main is a warrior, alt a hunter for pvp. when i pvp with my warrior and i have a choice of going after a hunter or a healer. 9 times out of 10 i go after the hunter. Way easier to shut down the hunter and hope for back up over going after the healer and letting the hunter sit there and shoot me to death.
mazurekstuff Oct 14th 2011 7:16PM
Why on God's green earth would I even waste time trying to explain it to a hunter anyways?
And yeah I guess I was trolling a little bit, sorry about that. I know subtlety doesn't translate well across the net but I meant it playfully. My main started out as a hunter, and though I never got around to finish leveling him he still holds a small hunter sizes place in my heart.
Regenald Oct 14th 2011 7:51PM
About the only useful thing i find for my hunter in BGs is keeping the flag carrier snared.
It is stupid that hostiles objective when facing a hunter is to get into melee range. Classes that can immobilize you can just stand there and right next to you, nuking you to death while you can just wing clip and occasionally raptor strike them back.
Whatever happened to Ghostcrawler's promised "BIG MELEE HIT" that would supposed to discourage that sort of behavior?
Kazador Oct 14th 2011 7:54PM
Frost, thanks for writing on this important aspect of Hunters.
There are several fundamental problems with hunters, and they combine to make it incredibly difficult for hunters to succeed in PVP:
1. Minimum Range (can't shoot in melee range, and don't have any real melee abilities)
2. Focus Regen Problems (Due to LOS, minimum range, interrupts, and slow debuffs)
3. CC that is difficult to use, easy to break, and easy to avoid
4. Weaker special abilities (short duration stuns, silences, roots, etc)
5. Bad Pet AI (pathing, stances, low health bug, etc)
6. Weak defenses (lost our dodge and parry, no other form of damage mitigation, weakest self-heals in the game)
7. Nothing special to offer (most classes bring something unique and helpful)
All of these areas should be addressed if we want to see hunters have a fair chance in PVP.
There are a lot of good ways to address these problems without unduly affecting PVE. These have been stated over and over for years, but to no effect. Many fixes to Hunter PVP are incredibly simple, such as changing the duration or cooldown of PVP abilities. Others require a rework of mechanics, which frankly is needed anyway even for PVE (such as nothing to do in melee range, and many bugs and AI problems with pets).
I'm honestly not sure why Blizz has seemed unable to resolve Hunter PVP problems despite years of being dead last in Arena. It seems they really just aren't paying attention, or don't think it's important, which is amazing since Hunters are consistently SO far behind every other class.
zenpunk Oct 14th 2011 8:12PM
hunters have *always* been the worst pvp'ers, by far... save for maybe like a couple week period, right before the Outland expansion, when we had new talents but not the extra talent points yet. For those couple weeks hunters were actually balanced. That's pretty much it.
Think about it ... how many years did they deal with a HUGE dead zone ... people argued that it was necessary or they'd be OP ... years pass of hunters being free kills ... finally Blizz says, okay, let's try reducing the dead zone a bit. Wow, what do you know... hunters didn't magically become OP. Huh, I guess they *were* gimp, and didn't need that huge dead zone. Oh well, our bad.
So, now, years of smaller but still there dead zone, let's look at the stats... gee, hunters STILL worst PvPers in game, by far.
Just get RID of the dead zone, altogether. If Blizz would just try it for a little bit I bet they'd find hunters are *almost* on par with other classes PvP-wise. Just try it, you'll see. Of course, there will be a backlash, and an outrage from other classes, but Blizz has to realize it won't be because hunters are OP now .... they will just *seem* OP to everyone for a while, simply because they used to be free kills, and now they're winning half the time, so people will naturally be upset. But, just bloody try it, and look at the win/lose stats, NOT what Warriors, locks, and DK's are saying just because they can't understand how they could lose to a hunter even once.