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All of the latest Mists of Pandaria newsScattered Shots: Improving hunter PVP
by Basil Berntsen 
Oct 14th 2011 at 3:00PM
Hunter PVP is in a bad state right now. This does not mean that you can't get Gladiator with a hunter, but it does mean you have to be way better to do it than if you were to play, say, a warlock. You also have to do it in a very small subset of viable team compositions, where your warlock alt could succeed in a large variety of team compositions.
Before you burn a hole through that "add comment" button arguing with me about viability and how Arena representation isn't worth the pixels it's displayed on, remember that I'm arguing that it takes more skill to succeed in PVP as a hunter. I'm not arguing that you can't do it, and I know that Arena class representation isn't a perfect measure of class balance. The same way some specs (like BM) are underrepresented in the top 100 PVE raid parses, the highest-rated PVP players in the game tend to play classes they feel they will do best, which skews the representation farther away from some perfectly viable spec/class combos. Arena representation is, however, one quantifiable number we can look into for insight.
The Arena representation for hunters is low. Go to Arenastats.com to see how low. As you change your rating filter higher, it gets lower, and it's never above 4%. What this means is that very few people succeed at obtaining high ratings with their hunters. If you check the graph of the top 3v3 team comps just below, you'll notice that only one of the top 10 samples on the graph has a hunter in it, and it's the lowest one. This technically doesn't show us anything but the fact that hunters are unpopular in PVP, however I believe it's fair to infer that this is at least partly due to their being unbalanced to the point of not being fun.
I hear you furiously typing that Blizzard has started to spend more effort balancing around rated BGs, so my entire argument is moot. To this, I'd point you to the World of Wargraphs analysis of RBG class representation -- hunters don't get a represention bump when you raise the number of players on the team. We're about as common on 2,400, 2,500, or 2,800 RBG teams as we are on 3s teams at those ratings. If I had to hazard a guess about why this is, I'd say that the combination of our burst damage, control, team buffs, and survivability just doesn't stack up to the other options. Our "special sauce," traps and peeling, are nothing compared to (for example) Smoke Bomb or Death Grip.
So what's wrong with hunters?
My good friend Eidotrope wrote an excellent article about one of the reasons we suffer in PVP: focus. Essentially, we need to use focus to do damage, and while the damage we do when we're allowed to actively regenerate focus through Steady/Cobra Shots is good, it's very easy for skilled opponents to shut us down. Want to stop a Steady Shot? Get into minimum range, get out of maximum range, or get out of line of sight. You can do it when we start a shot or you can do it when the cast is about to finish. Bonus points if you put a cast speed debuff on us. It takes considerably less skill to reduce the active focus regeneration of a hunter than it does for a hunter to actively regenerate focus on an opponent trying to prevent it. All an opponent has to do is the same thing they'd do to any other ranged class: "pillar hump" (break line of sight). They even get a bonus free pillar on all maps that's 10 yards across centered on the hunter.
If this design were balanced by overpowering the damage we could do when we had our opponent cornered with the proper use of Disengage, Concussive Shot, Wing Clip, Entrapment, and Master's Call, we'd be imbalanced in other places (raiding, for example). As it is, when we're left alone to turret (or when we're better at getting shots off than our target is at avoiding them), our damage is good but not obviously better than our damage-dealing competition.
The current solution to many class balance issues has been to shift away from 3s balance and work on RBGs. The reason for this is that there's a large benefit in bringing a variety of classes, and as you increase the team size, this benefit begins to outweigh the differences between equally balanced class/specs. This may help the designers avoid having to balance each viable PVP spec around each comp they might find themselves in, but it's not a solution for hunters. The hunter class is fundamentally unbalanced in PVP and requires some changes to the class itself. Done properly, these changes will ensure hunters can earn a place in competitive endgame PVP.
How to fix hunters
Hunters need something really valuable in PVP in order to carve out a niche. Even if it's something as simple as face-melting burst damage, each class or spec has something it's really good at. The first design consideration, though, has to be overall balance. Ghostcrawler (Blizzard's lead systems designer) recently mentioned that Blizzard is happy with hunter PVE damage when they were adjusting the attack power buffs to exclude us. Any PVP change that's made to the class needs to be something that won't throw PVE balance way out whack.
Highest on my list are the PVP set bonuses. They stink, and it's a huge opportunity to change hunter PVP without really affecting PVE balance. Ideally, PVP set gear is something that hunters will only want to wear while PVPing; however since the PVE four-piece set has been historically hard to obtain, it's not uncommon to see people rocking three PVE pieces and two PVP pieces to benefit from the 70 agility. Instead of directly increasing how hard our shots hit (which is valuable no matter what you're shooting at), these bonuses represent an opportunity to improve the way hunters play in PVP:
- One of the Season 11 bonuses could be to remove the minimum range. This would put us on equal footing with other ranged classes; we could be LOSed, but not by someone closing in on us. We'd still lose more than other ranged damage dealers when we're LOSed and unable to find a target where we could cast a focus regen shot, as they only lose a global cooldown and we potentially push back our next signature shot.
- Another Season 11 bonus could be something that helps us regen focus. Something like the two-piece T13 set bonus ... Actually, unless these Season 11 set bonuses are improved soon, PVPers will be forced to choose between raiding to get two-piece T13 and losing games to hunters who do.
Next on my list are the skills and talents that nobody touches:
- Point of No Escape is on the second tier of survival and has never once been specced into -- not even by accident or for testing. Point of No Escape could be made into something that prevents or reduces the effect of cast slows.
- Widow Venom costs focus and doesn't prevent enough healing to be a better use of our focus than some damaging attack. All Widow Venom would need to become useful and used in PVP (but not PVE) is a damage component that doesn't stack with Serpent Sting, while keeping its heal debuff. Or it could be made to randomly proc a reset of Master's Call's cooldown.
Usually, the harder it is to land a crowd control ability, the better it is. Traps are cool and define our class, but the process of using them against a player takes focus and an extra global cooldown, as well as usually a Scatter Shot to prevent the target from scooting away before it's armed. It also breaks on damage and can be easily deliberately eaten by someone other than its intended target (usually when its intended target can cleanse it).
Don't get me wrong, traps at our feet remain an awesome part of our class. That slight hesitation in the eyes of the rogue deciding whether to Shadowstep you or the warrior about to Charge are one of the things that make having a minimum range almost worth it.
One solution would be to make traps placed at our feet remained unchanged, but make spending focus on an instant and macroable trap launcher caused the launched trap to arm instantly. Alternatively, they could simply change freezing trap to be a targetable CC, no launching needed. Also, whether it's direct or not, our primary method of CC needs to be made to prevent damage like a Cyclone.
This would simplify hunter control without dumbing down the class to the point where the exceptionally skilled wouldn't stand out.
Scattered Shots is dedicated to helping you learn everything it takes to be a hunter. From leveling your hunter and choosing the best patch 4.2 gear to learning the DPS value of skill, we've got you covered. If you're stuck in one of the nine support classes, why not move up to the big league and play a hunter?
Filed under: (Hunter) Scattered Shots
Reader Comments (Page 3 of 3)
Liyly Oct 15th 2011 1:41PM
I can't really speak for end-game pvp, but in the lvl 20-24 twink (stopped xp) bracket, hunters are a dominating and very represented class. I've been pvping a lot in this bracket recently (not as a hunter) and have come across many formidable hunter opponents who seem to have a well-balanced set of abilities and damage output. In fact, if anything, I'd say they're potentially overpowered against melee classes, with lots of ways to keep you from getting close enough to attack them.
If end-game pvp is really a problem for hunters, maybe one could look to this other bracket to get some idea of what works better. It seems safe to assume it's not a matter of fundamental class mechanics (focus or min and max range) or abilities that cause the problem in the end-game if they're not an issue at earlier levels.
To me that only leaves gear (scaling or set bonuses) as the reason for low representation - aside from the possible fact that people simply don't enjoy playing hunters in end-game pvp for reasons other than the class 'being flawed' or 'in need of a buff.'
Liyly Oct 15th 2011 1:54PM
A few other thoughts I had:
-All classes have weak and strong areas. It seems to me that one of the most defining 'huntery' aspects of this class is that you don't want to be in melee range much. From my experience against hunters and having played my own (casually) I really think they have a sufficient tool set to help them stay out of range, comparable to other classes that don't fare well being close to their opponents (mages, warlocks, etc).
-Thus, one could described hunters as ranged, physical damage dealers with controllable pets. That seems to be a pretty solid niche to me already.
-The arguments regarding the resource mechanic (focus) and how easily this and the resulting damage can be interfered with by an opponent seem very weak, as every class can make the same claim. Every class has a minimum or maximum range at which they can deal effective damage, and every class has ways that their damage can be countered.
Again I just want to state that I can't really say much on the state of hunter pvp at the end-game as I don't have a lot of experience in it. I'm just worried about some of the arguments, assumptions, and premises that you use. They seem ill-founded or weak for a few different reasons - hunters are successful at lower levels, or because the arguments are founded on assumptions that probably aren't true.
agrippa01 Oct 15th 2011 3:25PM
You can't compare the representation and talent balance of sub-85 classes to that of endgame. Simply put, a hunter at level 24 is subject to a very different PvP environment than one at 85. It's like saying that if a child is capable of reading "The Cat in the Hat," he should be able to read "Othello" too. While the basic capacities are there, you miss the complexities.
For the most basic example, at level 24, hunters have http://www.wowhead.com/spell=781 (Disengage)- one of their most powerful and most frequently used defensive abilities, even at 85. At this same level, Warriors have http://www.wowhead.com/spell=100 (Charge), which allows them a gap closer if they are not in combat, but not http://www.wowhead.com/spell=20252 (Intercept,) which works in combat and only becomes available at level 50. Thus, if a hunter disengages, an attacking warrior has no available gap-closer at 24 and just has to chase after his target. To say that this is representative of the PvP interactions between a Warrior and Hunter at 85 is simply wrong, because both classes have more abilities to contend with one another. It's like a scale- as an ability is added to one side or the other, the balance shifts to favor one or the other. The idea is to have both sides equal at 85, but this is often not the case.
You mention that other classes also don't fare well when in range of melee opponents, and while it is true that a Mage/Warlock/Boomkin/etc does not benefit from being close to a weapon-flailing melee, these classes also doesn't lose all ability to dps because of it. A global cooldown has to be used by their attackers to interrupt casts, but it doesn't cost a melee anything to just stand on a hunter who has been snared or slowed.
In addition, you missed the point about focus- the complaint was not that classes shouldn't be able to column-kite to avoid damage, but rather that when an opponent uses LoS on a Hunter's Steady Shot/Cobra Shot, the Hunter loses both the potential dps of that ability (something suffered by all ranged classes) in addition to the loss of focus regeneration (which no other class has to deal with.) This cycle is doubly troublesome because the loss of dps a moment ago is compounded when the Hunter is now focus starved and unable to afford more damaging instant shots.
Next, you're right that Hunters have a niche. That's not the problem though. To get an invite into a RBG or high rated arena team, you need a strength that other classes don't bring. The problem is that while we have plenty of utility, our abilities are often redundant and other classes have much better options for the same result. Silencing Shot = Silence/etc, MM AP Buff = DK AP buff, Freezing Trap < Poly/Hex/Blind because a target has to wander into it, etc etc.
In brief, endgame does not equate twinking. Twinking is about maximizing a small number of abilities. Endgame is about balancing a comparatively large number and maximizing synergy. While we hope that the abilities of all classes are balanced in relation to one-another, the general consensus is that hunters are poorly balanced and need some rethinking.
If you want to get invited to the party, you have to be pretty. Right now, we Hunters have a big, ugly mole. With hairs on it. The bright side is that maybe with a little surgery, we won't make small children cry at the sight of us for all the wrong reasons.
Liyly Oct 15th 2011 4:41PM
Good points, agrippa01, but let me counter a bit...
First, maybe I wasn't clear in my reasoning for discussing the 20-24 twink bracket. I know that endgame pvp and this bracket are not equal and cannot be compared without other considerations. But what changes for a hunter from level 24 to level 85? They have more abilities, stronger abilities, more talents, access to glyphs, and higher stats and gear. They are also up against opponents with the same changes. Nothing regarding the mechanics of focus change, nothing changes in terms of min/max damage range, and nothing fundamental about the abilities they have at level 24 is different.
Thus, if at level 24 hunters are well-represented and often topping the damage/hk charts, there is probably nothing wrong with the aspects that remain consistent from level 24 to 85 (the mechanics of focus, min/max range, and the abilities in a level 24 hunter's arsenal). That's my point.
So why do hunters (possibly) become disproportionally weak at level 85? Well, look at what does change... gear, scaling, and then like you mentioned, all this in relationship to the ways the other classes change. The fact: hunters are underrepresented at endgame. To jump from this to the fact that the class needs some fundamental changes in class mechanics like focus regeneration and minimum range don't hold up well against the fact that at level 24 hunters do very well with the same mechanics. It seems more likely to me that it's more likely a gear issue (like the set bonuses Basil mentions - a valid argument) or ability scaling. Or the simple fact that maybe hunters just aren't as fun to play in pvp at endgame for reasons other than the fact that the class is too weak... that's still a possibility.
Furthermore, hunters don't lose the ability to dps in melee. Sure, it's not ideal, and they won't be able to put forth their maximum damage, but they have weapons and even an ability (Raptor Strike) to help. While it's true that mages and warlocks don't have a minimum range for their most powerful abilities, they also are wearing much less armor and will do less damage swinging a weapon than a hunter will. I really don't think a hunter with a melee on them is at any less of a disadvantage than any other ranged caster.
I didn't miss the point about focus, either... I just think it's flawed. Hunter focus is similar to rogue energy. The differences are rogue's energy regenerates faster (10 energy/sec in comparison to 6 focus/sec I think). But the trade-off? Hunters can actively regenerate their focus. Is it balanced? Hard to say, but it seems to work at lower levels well, so maybe it's not the cause of any potential imbalances at level 85 while it's still the same system.
As for the niche issue, Basil said it was a problem, not me. I don't think that the hunter's abilities that are similar to those of other classes are all inferior like you claim. Let's look at freezing trap, for instance. The downside is the mob has to wander into it so yes, in that respect, polymorph gives the caster more control. But freezing trap costs no time or focus from the hunter other than a single global cooldown, whereas polymorph takes mana, more time to cast, an is susceptible to interrupts and LoS issues!
Let me reiterate, I don't claim that twinking is equal to the endgame. I'm saying that it's dangerous to say that class mechanics and abilities that work in lower levels are the main cause of imbalance in higher levels. To use your own analogy, if a child struggles to read "Othello" but has the skills to read "Cat in the Hat", it's not because their current understanding of reading is incorrect and must be modified - it's simply a matter of complexity.
Pepprdgefarm Oct 16th 2011 3:16AM
Liyly,
I also have a hunter twink in the 20s in addition to my level 85 hunter main and can say with certainty that comparing the 2 is comparing apples and oranges. The abilities make the class and determine the class dynamics, which can't be discounted. If you were to give warriors intercept at that level and remove hunter disengage, I think you wouldn't find many if any hunter twinks in your bracket.
"It seems more likely to me that it's more likely a gear issue (like the set bonuses Basil mentions - a valid argument) or ability scaling."
> I'm sorry, but no simple gear will change the basic issues inherent to the current PVP issues that hunters face. What you're missing from your statement here is what abilities are added to other classes by 85 that adjusts their ability to fight hunters. For all the movement and kiting abilities that hunters have, by level 85 other classes by their very design are given gap closers that nullify hunters greater than hunters have counters for. Simply put, a hunter has to outplay another player class every time to win, however, the converse is not true. Another player class does not have to outplay a hunter to win.
"While it's true that mages and warlocks don't have a minimum range for their most powerful abilities, they also are wearing much less armor and will do less damage swinging a weapon than a hunter will. I really don't think a hunter with a melee on them is at any less of a disadvantage than any other ranged caster."
> Sorry, I have to disagree with you here as well. A frost mage, a priest, and a lock may all wear cloth, but given all their damage mitigating abilities and self-heals are infinitely less squishy than hunters are at level 85. It's sad but unfortunately true. They don't need to swing a weapon, their damaging spells can do the work for them. In addition, if a mage, lock, or priest have a melee on them, they do have instant casts (hello ice lance) or constant damaging mechanisms that they have available to them. Dots anyone?
"Hunter focus is similar to rogue energy. The differences are rogue's energy regenerates faster (10 energy/sec in comparison to 6 focus/sec I think). But the trade-off? Hunters can actively regenerate their focus."
> I'll give you a hundred dollars if you can find a serious PVP rogue or druid who would trade their energy for hunter focus. Simply put, they regenerate energy faster than hunters do and they don't need to do anything to do so. If the hunter can't get his/her steady shot cast off, the hunter can't regenerate much focus. Remember that steady shot has a cast time, so the focus it generates is fine, but still far inferior to inherent rogue/druid focus regeneration.
"I don't think that the hunter's abilities that are similar to those of other classes are all inferior like you claim. Let's look at freezing trap, for instance. The downside is the mob has to wander into it so yes, in that respect, polymorph gives the caster more control."
> In level 85 arenas/RBGs, unless you're playing against a complete noob, you won't find many teams where teammates won't foil a hunter scatter trap by simply walking over the trap instead of the intended target (i.e. healer). The scatter shot might not be interruptible, but the trap itself can be dispelled or disallowed by silencing the hunter. Furthermore, the cc ability itself has a cd. Compared with other ranged classes (fears/polymorphs), once the hunter drops his/her trap, he has to wait 30 seconds before it can be cast again. A mage or lock can simply continue spamming fear/polymorph at different targets to their hearts content. A 7% mana cost (like a mage's polymorph) over the length of an arena/RBG match is simply not that big a deal. Again, I'll give you hundred dollars if you can find a competent PVP player with a mage/lock who would trade their cc abilities for a hunter's scatter trap.
owenstanley Oct 19th 2011 2:08PM
I haven't had a chance to hit the rbg's in a good while, but in the capture the flag's i've done I've noticed that it almost feels like I'm more useful defending the flag carrier than I am going with offense. We have roar of sacrifice, master's call, freezing trap scatter shot all these abilities that are awesome for peeling for the flag carrier combined with our own surviveability, especially with 3-4 healers in the same room. We can kill the opposing team's offense or at least last a hell of alot longer than normal.
Conversely, I honestly don't feel useful for anything more than tranq shotting buffs off the kill target and getting a few aimed shots in during cd's. Scatter traps, even if they DO land, will get instantly dispelled (in my experience at least) the moment they proc by one of the 2-3 remaining healers that aren't cc'ed.
In arena I've always felt that we are more suited to utility, that is, keeping people in one spot and making sure that our partners can do their jobs/stay alive to the maximum ability with our buffs and abilities helping them out with doing damage as our secondary priority to that.
I'll have to wait to see how the T13 2pc changes things with the better focus regen, but that's just my impression of the state of our class right now. XD
pepprdgefarm Oct 20th 2011 4:42PM
I think hunters do a respectable job of protecting the flag carrier in CTF (capture the flag) maps, but to be honest, there are other classes that are better for that than we are (locks for example). Other classes can continue spamming their CC (crowd control) abilities to disrupt the enemy attack and have better overall damage output. These days, at least for RBG ratings above 2k, I've found that more and more teams are utilizing less players for strictly defense and simply loading up on their offensive teams, keeping perhaps 2 healers on their FC (flag carrier) and sending the rest (including an offensive healer) on offense to kill the EFC (enemy flag carrier) or wipe the other team's offense. Then the teams will wait until the EFC has sufficient stacks of the flag carrying debuff before going in and nuking him/her.
When on offense I can't tell you how important it is to keep the next target of attack cleared of as many buffs as possible. Using a focus Tranq shot to keep peeling these buffs off while continuing to hit the current target is just priceless as a lot of healers won't notice it in the chaos of the fight. I believe the focus cost of tranq shot is a little too high, but is effective overall and as a marksman hunter, having the double rapid fires for burst and having the ability to add a ferocity pet buff is just an amazing tool for groups on offense.