"There are no simple solutions" -- Design diversity in WoW

I intend to go over the entire post carefully, but here are some highlights to ponder up front:
- The 1.35% number is just plain wrong. Blizzard has its own numbers that it's not going to share, but the 1.35% is probably as accurate as could be expected without access to Blizzard's internal data gathering.
- Blizzard's design intent is to make content for all of the playerbase. "It's both a blessing and a curse that the WoW player base is as large and diverse as it is."
- Players raid for many different reasons, some challenge, others loot, and others just to see the content. Some players are happy if they just see a boss once, while others enjoy weekly clearing.
- The idea of being willing to wipe a hundred or more times to clear a boss, a staple of the raider mentality for years, is not appealing to most players.
Hardcore or casual, I'm the one holding the mouse
Bashiok - 1.35% of all wow players completed normal FL
As others have pointed out, your 1.35% is just wrong due to the stats MMO is stating, but whatever, we're not going to reveal any of our internal numbers to show how wrong you are, or discount the numbers posted on MMO for that matter. I will say they're likely as accurate as they can be. Meaning, they're wrong, but at no fault of theirs simply due to the data they have available to them. While we do have data we pull and review very regularly, it's not always a true measure of success or failure without considering the context.
We try and make content for all of our players. It's both a blessing and a curse that the WoW player base is as large and diverse as it is. "Hardcore" players for example tend to dramatically underestimate the skill gap between themselves and the vast majority of other players. A lot of games handle this problem through multiple difficulty settings. That is harder to do in a game as content rich as World of Warcraft, but it is something we're looking at more and more with new features like Raid Finder essentially adding a more accessible setting.
But even with a system (we believe) as awesome as the Raid Finder, there are no simple solutions.
We try and make content for all of our players. It's both a blessing and a curse that the WoW player base is as large and diverse as it is. "Hardcore" players for example tend to dramatically underestimate the skill gap between themselves and the vast majority of other players. A lot of games handle this problem through multiple difficulty settings. That is harder to do in a game as content rich as World of Warcraft, but it is something we're looking at more and more with new features like Raid Finder essentially adding a more accessible setting.
But even with a system (we believe) as awesome as the Raid Finder, there are no simple solutions.
One of the points Bashiok makes in this section of the post needs to be examined because it's not just the hardcore players who underestimate that skill gap. A great many people who play this game don't understand how far guilds getting world firsts and raiding heroic content will go for those kills. Hundreds upon hundreds of wipes, class balance ruthlessly examined and the absolutely optimal raid comp chosen, leveling alts for the express purpose of seeing the content and learning it before lockouts. Combine this with skill (yes, the players in guilds getting world- or even region-first kills are most likely far better than most of us reading Bashiok's post), and we're talking a level of skill and dedication that could make raiding impossible for the average player if normal mode raids were designed to meet it.
World of Warcraft effectively is about to have several difficulty settings for raiding. Raid Finder raids will be the baseline of difficulty, with 10- and 25-man normal raids the next level (and there will be players on both sides of that divide arguing which is harder; it's not germane to this post), and then heroic content as the third level of difficulty. This is the most diverse level of difficulty in raiding since 10- and 25-man raids were given a shared lockout, and it is directly due to the wide variety of skill, dedication, and gear spread across that diverse playerbase.
Bashiok - 1.35% of all wow players completed normal FL
Players are motivated to raid (and do any content for that matter) for a lot of different reasons. A sizeable number of players are satisfied with seeing most of the game content once. If they kill the dragon or slay the Lich King, they (appropriately) feel like they have won the game. That view is pretty heretical to the traditional raider, who is used to working for weeks to defeat a boss and then spending the next few weeks or months farming that boss so that their group has a leg up for the next tier of content. Other players can be motivated by gear, and once they accrue their rewards they are done with the content. Others are motivated by the challenge, and if things are too easy, they lose interest. These players also tend to assume that everyone shares their mindset and they will be happy to wipe on a fight over and over and over with hopes of improving.
In reality, we know from data that a lot of players might be willing to wipe a few times, and then after that, they're done raiding and potentially even playing. It might be easy to dismiss those players and argue raiding is not for them, but that's not really our design goal. Raids represent an enormous commitment of developer resources. In the same way that we would never make 20 new Arenas just for Gladiator-level players, we don't want to develop a raid that only 2% of our raiders can see. We will make sure that there are challenging encounters for players who enjoy that sort of thing (as many of us professional game developers do), but then our goal will be to, over time, broaden the potential audience by bringing the content difficulty down. We think the shock with Firelands for some players was that the nerfs were so severe instead of gradual. For the 4.3 Dragon Soul raid we plan on gradually nerfing it over time, sort of like we did with Icecrown Citadel, except by nerfing the content instead of buffing the players.
In reality, we know from data that a lot of players might be willing to wipe a few times, and then after that, they're done raiding and potentially even playing. It might be easy to dismiss those players and argue raiding is not for them, but that's not really our design goal. Raids represent an enormous commitment of developer resources. In the same way that we would never make 20 new Arenas just for Gladiator-level players, we don't want to develop a raid that only 2% of our raiders can see. We will make sure that there are challenging encounters for players who enjoy that sort of thing (as many of us professional game developers do), but then our goal will be to, over time, broaden the potential audience by bringing the content difficulty down. We think the shock with Firelands for some players was that the nerfs were so severe instead of gradual. For the 4.3 Dragon Soul raid we plan on gradually nerfing it over time, sort of like we did with Icecrown Citadel, except by nerfing the content instead of buffing the players.
What I find fascinating about this passage of the post is how up front Bashiok is about the design challenge inherent in trying to design raiding content for these widely disparate groups of players. To a degree, the Raid Finder is a means to an end, and that end is helping satisfy players who are not willing to invest the time required for higher difficulty in raiding, making it possible for them to get in and see these boss fights.
The evolution of content and the raid
Raids are being tasked (and have been tasked throughout WoW's existence) with two fairly divided challenges. Raids are where the biggest lore reveals in the game are, and they're also where the hardest, most complicated, and most rewarding fights in the game are. If you're a total lore nerd (guilty) like myself and you actually want to be able to see fights like the most recent tier's Ragnaros fight, you need to either figure out a way to get yourself into the cutting edge of raid progression, or you can watch a video somewhere. No one pays to play a game so they can watch someone else do it. But for the player who has invested the time and effort to clear the fight when it was cutting edge, the idea that all that work was for naught can be enraging. And that's just two different kinds of playstyle; it doesn't take those that raid for gear or those that raid for technical perfection into account.
This leads to the current and evolving design paradigm where, if all you want to do is see the fight, you can use the Raid Finder and do exactly that. If you just want to gear up, you can run RF for a few weeks, get solid gear and valor points, and you're happy. If you have a few days a week you can dedicate to it, you can raid normal mode content, experience more challenges and get better gear. And if you hunger for the most difficult fights in the game, you're welcome to focus on heroic modes and achievements.
Furthermore, all of this has to have some level of pick-and-choose in order for the system to work. Raiders who want to push the absolute bleeding edge of content are going to make use of RF to gear up their alts and get familiar with fights. RF-geared players still have the option of running a normal mode pickup group and will have the benefit of not going into the harder version of the raid blind or undergeared.
The difference coordination makes
Another element of the argument to discuss is this willingness to wipe and how it influences when content is lowered in difficulty. One of the barriers in getting players to see raid content is the ability to assemble a raid team, which is an aspect that the Raid Finder is aimed at addressing. Another, however, is purely in terms of the content's difficulty and in how much skill and coordination it requires to complete it. There is a vast difference between a raid group that has experience working together and a group of strangers unfamiliar with raiding itself. What Bashiok said about hardcore players underestimating the skill gap can also be used here: The average WoW player who raids even in a normal mode capacity does not understand how much of an effect their knowledge of each other, of how to communicate and how to adapt to each other, has on their ability to complete the content.
I am not saying that you are better than a pickup group's players because they are bad. I'm saying you're better than they are because you have overcome a barrier: You have familiarity with each other, with your strengths and weaknesses as players, and that you know how to communicate with each other. This is a barrier to raiding that you have already overcome, and it should not be underestimated or ignored.
Your group has already found its wipe threshold, also. Designing content for as many players as possible means that the entry level has to be wipe-friendly, that it has to be capable of being completed without the same level of coordination that more challenging difficulty settings require. And one of the weapons in the designers tool kit for new raiders coming into this content, especially as time passes, is to progressively lower its difficulty.
I haven't changed my mind about how Blizzard nerfed Firelands, but I also agree with Bashiok here that it was the "how" of those nerfs and not the "why" of them that took me by surprise. Content will always be nerfed as it loses relevance, even if it is only nerfed by gear progression. Building an awareness of that process into design can only benefit more players. If you only want to see the content once, wait a few months -- it'll get there.
Bashiok - 1.35% of all wow players completed normal FLThere is another portion of players that are just not interested in raiding no matter how accessible it is, and that's fine too, but we do keep track of how player behavior in the past may match player behavior currently or even in the future as we make these choices. Overall our goals are to ultimately get as many people seeing and downing Deathwing as saw the end of Naxxramas in Wrath of the Lich King. That's not all going to be day 1 of the patch, or even in the first month, but with the Raid Finder and gradual lowering of content we think we can create that initial super high barrier to test the true worth of the hardest of the hardcore, while also providing some fun and accessible content to a much wider swath of players.
What this ultimately does is work the predilections of as many players as possible into design iteration itself. If you know you have this wide variety of player motivations, you also know you can't possibly succeed in designing for all of them initially. But you can gradually broaden the scope of the accessibility of the content. When patch 4.3 launches, there will be new 5-man dungeons for players to gear up in while dedicated raiders hurl themselves into the new raids, and some players hit the Raid Finder to see the content in a "story mode" difficulty setting that will allow more than one kind of raider to gain what they're looking for.
What progression means depends on who is asking
Over time, as some raiders move into heroic modes, others will step up from the Raid Finder or heroic 5-mans to normal mode raiding, be it 10- or 25-man. Then, as content is reduced in difficulty, more and more players will make use of more and more of these options. While it may never reach a level of accessibility wherein all players raid, it will be much more likely that all those players who want to raid will at least get to do some form of it, and therefore, all that content gated behind the barriers inherent to raiding will be available. Just as PVP currently has normal and Rated Battlegrounds as well as Arenas for all kinds of PVP players, from the player who likes to run AV to blow off steam to the player who is going for a 2,200 rating, so will there be options for raiders as well.
This is quite possibly the greatest challenge to design Blizzard has ever undertaken, an attempt to satisfy as many players as possible. Whether it will be successful or not is as yet unknown. It's an extremely daunting task, designing for players who will wipe on heroic Ragnaros 500 times in a few days and for players who would rather not wipe on normal Rag five times. It may not even matter if it can actually be done. The effort of trying to do it, of trying to include both kinds of players and everyone in between, may be more important and more informative for the future than anything else.
Filed under: Analysis / Opinion, News items, Lore, Hotfixes






Reader Comments (Page 1 of 4)
Moeru Oct 15th 2011 2:04PM
I was just talking about this last night with someone. Eerie.
Snuzzle Oct 15th 2011 3:45PM
Me, too. I was in a BOT pug and after two wipes on the first boss, the group just dissolved without a word. I was left feeling like the odd man out, wondering whatever happened to expecting a couple wipes in a pug?
Moeru Oct 15th 2011 3:46PM
That happened to me earlier today actually. Healer left as we were pulling T-Rex boss in DTK, and then the tank and the hunter left after the wipe.
DarkWalker Oct 15th 2011 5:08PM
@Snuzzle:
While I did manage to beat LK while it was still current content after over a month of nothing but wipes, my tolerance for wipes in PUGs is very low. Though I won't leave an ongoing PUG due to just wipes, getting a couple bad PUGs in a row can make me stop PUGging altogether for a time - and getting almost a month straight of bad PUGs, together with my old raid group disintegrating, is what drove me to leave the game back in January.
BTW: with the LFR in place to take a look at the raids, if I do get back to WoW, I most likely won't even attempt the normal or hard modes. For me, the effort to find a good group - or the frustration of wiping with a PUG - is just not worth it. Plus, being able to play without scheduling it in advance is, for me, a REALLY HUGE improvement. Also, I like the idea of having the looting system locked into a "need before greed" mode, which should eliminate the worst cases of ninja looting in PUGs (although I would really prefer individual loot, either in the form of loot bags, or as just tokens/points).
Snuzzle Oct 15th 2011 9:45PM
@DarkWalker
I've realized over time that I seem to have a greater tolerance for wipes than most people, but recently it seems to have gulfed larger and larger. I can't imagine ever leaving a party over two wipes, and I've run into plenty of groups that have fallen apart after just one wipe.
I can't decide, though, if my high wipe tolerance is due to my innate stubbornness, or due to it being ingrained into me during classic that you can't succeed without lots of wiping.
Sqtsquish Oct 16th 2011 1:53PM
I have been talking with this aspect of the game with friends for quite awhile- my prediction that what the least coordinated, most casual players consider as "hardcore", regardless of whether or not it is "hardcore" or not is essential to the continued success of the game regardless of the fact that that group holds a significantly smaller margin of the playerbase.
My thoughts are this:1. that "casuals" and "hardcores" often have mutual friends in common. 2. "Casual" players are capable of experiencing a rush by ever so slightly challenging themselves and succeeding whereas the same content is almost insulting to their "hardcore" friends of friends. 3. "Casual" players play games very often for social interaction, whereas "hardcore" players play games more often for goal centered challenges. 4. When "hardcore" players find nothing worthy of their time they leave- eventually taking a person or two with them- reducing the population slightly of people that will call out for dedication. 5. Game difficulty expectations start to shift and goals become more easily accomplished with a short period of time. 6. "Casual" players have seen some of their friends leave the game because they left with a couple of their more goal centered friends and they have easily achieved most things they have set their eyes on. 7. Casual players who are bored with doing the same things over and over again without the friends they used to play with find some other game to spend their time on.
So in essence, casual players are a dime a dozen- and one or two leaving are of little effect to the eyes of the playerbase due to their admitted little time investment (they have real lives, so their little time spent online is less missed when they are gone); whereas goal-driven "hardcore" players are difficult to appease and will leave promptly upon being left out to dry. The paradox lies that when a company sees some of the small "hardcore" players start to leave it seems a small monetary loss over the continued gain of the larger part of the more "casual" audience, but the "hardcore" audience is what drives the game forward.
Think about it this way: if Blizz had left leveling as a huge time investment, if Blizz had focused on revamping all questing content like they did for 1-60, if there was no group demanding that there be end-game content and people just focused on questing with their buddies (as many claim they spend most of their time on), then there would be no need for any additional content for the next couple years. There are literally tons and tons of "casual" things to do in game that are passed up regularly because Blizz directs people to end game content (raiding, heroics, etc).
GhostWhoWalks Oct 15th 2011 2:28PM
Wow, you know, I just had a stroke of inspiration while reading this. Bashiok mentions that they try to make cutting edge content difficult initially, then nerf it over time to allow a larger percentage of players to experience it. As Mr. Rossi mentions, this enrages those players who put in the time and effort to beat this content when it was cutting edge, then look around a few months later and see a bunch of "lesser" players running around with the same rewards they struggled so hard to earn but with half the effort. I propose a solution.
Right now, Blizz has Feats of Strength for earning world/realm firsts. I think they should add an additional Feat for downing the final boss of X raid before any nerfs are implemented. "Hero of the Firelands: Defeat Ragnaros at the height of his power." or something along those lines. It might not be much, but it acts as a badge of honor to separate the elite players who put in the time and effort to beat the cutting edge and those who managed to get their kills after the difficulty was lowered.
thawedtheorc Oct 15th 2011 2:31PM
or they could put a footnote of sorts on gear they obtain after nerfs.
Caylynn Oct 15th 2011 2:40PM
You know, that's a great idea. Someone send this to Blizzard!
Killik Oct 15th 2011 2:44PM
The achievement has a date on your Armory, so the people who care can already tell when you downed a boss. I suspect the complaints have more to do with people feeling their epeen has been diminished by other people even being allowed to do the same stuff.
Bellajtok Oct 15th 2011 2:44PM
I like the way you put that. I've heard it before, and it kind of annoyed me then, but the way you phrased it sounds fair.
.....Although, of course, then you peeve the achievement hunters who don't want a time limit on their attempt. There really is no easy solution. Yay playerbase diversity!
Paul Oct 15th 2011 2:50PM
Adding distinction to those that do "achieve" success within elements of the game as they are originally intended would help appease, that is for certain, however, removing the OPTION to experience that level of difficulty is not solved by this, and to be honest, neither is the LFR system, because they have already stated that they are prepared to nerf the 4.3 content once they are comfortable with the numbers that have already completed it.
Sure, those that don't want other's to obtain the same recognition as them are covered by this, but what about those that are outside of that curve?
Firelands is a lovely example of this. Guilds were progressing slowly, more so than the previous 5 tiers, and for a number of raiders caught up in this, it was frustrating and detrimental to what they want out of the game. The problem is, this wasn't true for EVERYONE that was caught up in this. My guild, for example, only reached 4/7 normal prior to the nerfs, but we were enjoying the challenge without it resorting to our RLs pulling their hair out.
We lost that challenge, and we can't get it back, because frankly, the HC encounters, even with their nerfs, are above our station. I was actually thankful that we had a really bad night this week and had a wipefest on Beth'tilac. If we can balance our group well enough with undergeared, underexperienced players, then we can just about get a challenge for the first 6 bosses again, but that means we have to overcome our raiders instead of overcoming the encounters...
They need to leave normal and heroic alone. If players are struggling with a certain version, then it's up to them to solve it, not Blizzard. The LFR is a blessing in this sense, as it means those that struggle in Normal mode actually have somewhere to go, but they have to be allowed to come back to that challenge if they think they've learnt enough from LFR.
Jawn Oct 15th 2011 2:57PM
I don't believe an achievement is really needed. As was pointed out, there's already a date stamp on the achievement.
If someone is going to get angry that they "worked" so hard to get stuff that is now easier... well we know it's going to happen - it's how it works now. They can either wait until things get nerfed, so they don't have to "work" so hard, or they just need to not take the game so seriously.
The only purpose i see for such an achievement, is to shove it in someone else's face to denigrate them.
Jenn Oct 15th 2011 2:59PM
Anyone who cares enough to know whether someone defeated a boss pre/post nerf will know when the nerf occurred and check the date on the achievement.
Adding a Feat of Strength for this just looks like an excuse for more ePeenage.
weepixie Oct 15th 2011 3:17PM
This is a really good idea. Pre-nerf Feats of Strength for completion would make the raiders who DO take it seriously feel less dismissed when content is nerfed (a very real issue). I think it's ironic that Bashiok says this:
"In reality, we know from data that a lot of players might be willing to wipe a few times, and then after that, they're done raiding and potentially even playing. It might be easy to dismiss those players and argue raiding is not for them, but that's not really our design goal."
but then makes no mention of the fact that heroic modes in Firelands were nerfed too! I mean, really? Heroic modes are *supposed to be* for the seriously dedicated. Our needs - the ones who grind carefully and in a dedicated way, who endure hours of wiping without whining and throwing tantrums - aren't as high of a priority in their design goals as the needs of those who give up after a few wipes? /facepalm
Nerf regular content after a period of time, sure. Inclusion is a good thing. But heroic modes should be for those of us who WANT a challenge and should never be nerfed. And yes, give a Feat of Strength for completing content pre-nerfs. An excellent idea.
mordred Oct 15th 2011 4:12PM
"elite players" LOL. ok, you are elite *pats on head*
Austin Oct 15th 2011 6:09PM
@jawn
Don't take this the wrong way, but why is it wrong to want recognition for putting in more time or effort to do something when it was harder?
Skarn Oct 15th 2011 6:37PM
@mordred
/purrrrr
I'm glad SOMEONE appreciates me!
Lipstick Oct 15th 2011 8:44PM
I actually think this is a relatively neat solution. While the date does give -some- perspective, it's not an accurate picture of everything that went on. Can you honestly tell me you remember the exact date of every 5% buff that went out in ICC? I know I sure can't. I remember completing 9/12 HM on 10 and 25 both before it reached 30% but whether it was 5, 10, 20% I couldn't tell you any more. It would be nice to look back and remember that once upon a time you did something really great. And not have memory, and additional tiers of raiding clog your memory.
Having such an achievement could be used to insult other players (if other players were so inclined to FEEL insulted, since you can't feel insulted if you don't choose to be), but it doesn't necessarily mean that it would. It could simply be a way to give yourself a mental pat on the back, and the motivation to keep on trucking when you hit a rough patch in future tiers. Sometimes for me, remember past success helps me dig deeper for current success.
I don't begrudge anyone the right to see content -- I think that LFR will help a lot of people who feel like content is inaccessible with this need. What I begrudge is blizzard acting like peter pan, and taking from the rich to give to the poor. (And no I don't mean gear).
What I mean by that is, nerfing normals is one thing -- but nerfing hardmodes is another. When they nerf normals, it allows others to progress through the content, see more fights, get more gear and hopefully move on into hardmode raiding. When they nerf hardmode raiding, with no new content release, with no way to keep it at the same level of difficulty that we -want- to down it under, they effectively take away content from us, and one of the driving forces for us to pursue that content, without giving us anything in return.
While I am sure there might be -some- groups which are grateful as it helped removed a roadblock they may have stumbled on, I know for others, it completely killed this tier of raiding for us. It makes us feel anything we accomplish now doesn't really count and all we're doing now is spinning the drain, hitting the loot pinata button so that we're ready to hit the ground running in 4.3. I for one however am disappointed because it brought a close to 4.2 for my guild prematurely and before it's time.
GhostWhoWalks Oct 15th 2011 10:27PM
@morderd
What, you think I was referring to myself when I said "elite players"? I've never even fought any of the Firelands bosses...like, at all. XD
@Lipstick
"What I begrudge is blizzard acting like peter pan, and taking from the rich to give to the poor."
Er...you mean Robin Hood, right? Other guy in green tights.