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10-15-2011 @ 2:28PM
Wow, you know, I just had a stroke of inspiration while reading this. Bashiok mentions that they try to make cutting edge content difficult initially, then nerf it over time to allow a larger percentage of players to experience it. As Mr. Rossi mentions, this enrages those players who put in the time and effort to beat this content when it was cutting edge, then look around a few months later and see a bunch of "lesser" players running around with the same rewards they struggled so hard to earn but with half the effort. I propose a solution.Right now, Blizz has Feats of Strength for earning world/realm firsts. I think they should add an additional Feat for downing the final boss of X raid before any nerfs are implemented. "Hero of the Firelands: Defeat Ragnaros at the height of his power." or something along those lines. It might not be much, but it acts as a badge of honor to separate the elite players who put in the time and effort to beat the cutting edge and those who managed to get their kills after the difficulty was lowered.
10-15-2011 @ 2:31PM
or they could put a footnote of sorts on gear they obtain after nerfs.
10-15-2011 @ 2:40PM
You know, that's a great idea. Someone send this to Blizzard!
10-15-2011 @ 2:44PM
The achievement has a date on your Armory, so the people who care can already tell when you downed a boss. I suspect the complaints have more to do with people feeling their epeen has been diminished by other people even being allowed to do the same stuff.
I like the way you put that. I've heard it before, and it kind of annoyed me then, but the way you phrased it sounds fair. .....Although, of course, then you peeve the achievement hunters who don't want a time limit on their attempt. There really is no easy solution. Yay playerbase diversity!
10-15-2011 @ 2:50PM
Adding distinction to those that do "achieve" success within elements of the game as they are originally intended would help appease, that is for certain, however, removing the OPTION to experience that level of difficulty is not solved by this, and to be honest, neither is the LFR system, because they have already stated that they are prepared to nerf the 4.3 content once they are comfortable with the numbers that have already completed it.Sure, those that don't want other's to obtain the same recognition as them are covered by this, but what about those that are outside of that curve?Firelands is a lovely example of this. Guilds were progressing slowly, more so than the previous 5 tiers, and for a number of raiders caught up in this, it was frustrating and detrimental to what they want out of the game. The problem is, this wasn't true for EVERYONE that was caught up in this. My guild, for example, only reached 4/7 normal prior to the nerfs, but we were enjoying the challenge without it resorting to our RLs pulling their hair out.We lost that challenge, and we can't get it back, because frankly, the HC encounters, even with their nerfs, are above our station. I was actually thankful that we had a really bad night this week and had a wipefest on Beth'tilac. If we can balance our group well enough with undergeared, underexperienced players, then we can just about get a challenge for the first 6 bosses again, but that means we have to overcome our raiders instead of overcoming the encounters...They need to leave normal and heroic alone. If players are struggling with a certain version, then it's up to them to solve it, not Blizzard. The LFR is a blessing in this sense, as it means those that struggle in Normal mode actually have somewhere to go, but they have to be allowed to come back to that challenge if they think they've learnt enough from LFR.
10-15-2011 @ 2:57PM
I don't believe an achievement is really needed. As was pointed out, there's already a date stamp on the achievement. If someone is going to get angry that they "worked" so hard to get stuff that is now easier... well we know it's going to happen - it's how it works now. They can either wait until things get nerfed, so they don't have to "work" so hard, or they just need to not take the game so seriously. The only purpose i see for such an achievement, is to shove it in someone else's face to denigrate them.
10-15-2011 @ 2:59PM
Anyone who cares enough to know whether someone defeated a boss pre/post nerf will know when the nerf occurred and check the date on the achievement. Adding a Feat of Strength for this just looks like an excuse for more ePeenage.
10-15-2011 @ 3:17PM
This is a really good idea. Pre-nerf Feats of Strength for completion would make the raiders who DO take it seriously feel less dismissed when content is nerfed (a very real issue). I think it's ironic that Bashiok says this:"In reality, we know from data that a lot of players might be willing to wipe a few times, and then after that, they're done raiding and potentially even playing. It might be easy to dismiss those players and argue raiding is not for them, but that's not really our design goal."but then makes no mention of the fact that heroic modes in Firelands were nerfed too! I mean, really? Heroic modes are *supposed to be* for the seriously dedicated. Our needs - the ones who grind carefully and in a dedicated way, who endure hours of wiping without whining and throwing tantrums - aren't as high of a priority in their design goals as the needs of those who give up after a few wipes? /facepalmNerf regular content after a period of time, sure. Inclusion is a good thing. But heroic modes should be for those of us who WANT a challenge and should never be nerfed. And yes, give a Feat of Strength for completing content pre-nerfs. An excellent idea.
10-15-2011 @ 4:12PM
"elite players" LOL. ok, you are elite *pats on head*
10-15-2011 @ 6:09PM
@jawnDon't take this the wrong way, but why is it wrong to want recognition for putting in more time or effort to do something when it was harder?
10-15-2011 @ 6:37PM
@mordred/purrrrrI'm glad SOMEONE appreciates me!
10-15-2011 @ 8:44PM
I actually think this is a relatively neat solution. While the date does give -some- perspective, it's not an accurate picture of everything that went on. Can you honestly tell me you remember the exact date of every 5% buff that went out in ICC? I know I sure can't. I remember completing 9/12 HM on 10 and 25 both before it reached 30% but whether it was 5, 10, 20% I couldn't tell you any more. It would be nice to look back and remember that once upon a time you did something really great. And not have memory, and additional tiers of raiding clog your memory.Having such an achievement could be used to insult other players (if other players were so inclined to FEEL insulted, since you can't feel insulted if you don't choose to be), but it doesn't necessarily mean that it would. It could simply be a way to give yourself a mental pat on the back, and the motivation to keep on trucking when you hit a rough patch in future tiers. Sometimes for me, remember past success helps me dig deeper for current success.I don't begrudge anyone the right to see content -- I think that LFR will help a lot of people who feel like content is inaccessible with this need. What I begrudge is blizzard acting like peter pan, and taking from the rich to give to the poor. (And no I don't mean gear).What I mean by that is, nerfing normals is one thing -- but nerfing hardmodes is another. When they nerf normals, it allows others to progress through the content, see more fights, get more gear and hopefully move on into hardmode raiding. When they nerf hardmode raiding, with no new content release, with no way to keep it at the same level of difficulty that we -want- to down it under, they effectively take away content from us, and one of the driving forces for us to pursue that content, without giving us anything in return.While I am sure there might be -some- groups which are grateful as it helped removed a roadblock they may have stumbled on, I know for others, it completely killed this tier of raiding for us. It makes us feel anything we accomplish now doesn't really count and all we're doing now is spinning the drain, hitting the loot pinata button so that we're ready to hit the ground running in 4.3. I for one however am disappointed because it brought a close to 4.2 for my guild prematurely and before it's time.
10-15-2011 @ 10:27PM
@morderdWhat, you think I was referring to myself when I said "elite players"? I've never even fought any of the Firelands bosses...like, at all. XD@Lipstick"What I begrudge is blizzard acting like peter pan, and taking from the rich to give to the poor."Er...you mean Robin Hood, right? Other guy in green tights.
10-15-2011 @ 10:32PM
yeah lol my bad... typed the wrong thing
10-17-2011 @ 5:59AM
@Austin My top of the line computer cost me 4000 dollars when I bought it. I can now buy the same setup 2 years later for slightly over a thousand. Do I deserve a pat on the head because I worked 4 times as hard to get the same reward as you could now for less effort?Do I deserve a pat on the head because my first character had to walk everywhere until level 40, and then couldn't even afford a mount for 6 more levels? No.Stroke your own e-peen, you are the only person it matters to.
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