Officers' Quarters: Mailbox roundup 4 -- raid leaders
by Scott Andrews 
Oct 17th 2011 at 4:00PM
Every Monday, Scott Andrews contributes Officers' Quarters, a column about the ins and outs of guild leadership. He is the author of The Guild Leader's Handbook, available now from No Starch Press.
Here at Officers' Quarters, I receive a number of emails every week that don't get featured in the column for various reasons (which I explained the first time I did a roundup). Today it's time to examine two of these shorter -- but no less interesting! -- topics. This roundup's theme is raid leaders.
Bad player = bad raid leader
Scott,
I really don't know if I'm writing just to get this off my chest or to ask for advice ...
We had the same raid leader through several expansions who was very authoritative, decisive, and effective. Then he had to step back due to irl stuff and we were left with a leadership gap. No one really wanted to step up and be raid leader but eventually one of our officers decided to take it over. I'll call him John.
John had a very different leadership style. I'm not sure if it was your column or elsewhere that I once read about the personality differences between a raid leader and guild leader but John has much more of guild leader style. Very much focused on having everyone get along, trying to get everyone to agree with everything, trying to get everyone to like each other ...
When John makes mistakes that contribute to something bad happening, he likes to take whole blame for it. He won't look beyond his own contribution to the fail to find that the tanks failed a switch, a dps pulled aggro, or someone failed to move out of the fire, which is what put them in extreme danger in the first place. When I try to point out that I need him to be more critical than just taking all the blame, two things happen. First, he backtracks and tries to say he's not taking on all the blame, even if he's typed out explicitly that something was "all my fault." Second, he becomes completely demotivated and sullen in Vent, which effects the mood of the raid.
The first effect is frustrating because it's a technique he uses in officer discussions about other raid business as well. He'll say something, seemingly without thinking about it, that is either factually wrong or shows a complete misunderstanding of a mechanic/situation/etc and when called on it, tries to say that wasn't what he meant or that he was joking.This is a tough situation, no doubt about it. It sounds like the problem began when the officers allowed someone who isn't a good player to be a raid leader. A raid leader who isn't very good at playing his class and doesn't understand game mechanics is going to fail, end of story.
The second effect has caused one of the other officers to ask me not to 'yell at him' until after the raid in the future. This would be a lot easier to do if John wasn't one of our four worst players, judging on pure performance.
Which sort of leaves me in a predicament. I fully respect the fact that he's doing a job no one else (including myself) wants to do. I also fully understand we have wildly different leadership styles and goals (I'm much more task and progress oriented where he's much more community oriented). But it feels like I'm getting close to a position where I'm going to need to sacrifice raid progression for the sake of maintaining a peace which, because of my goals, I'm loathe to do. What can I do here?
--Trying to Win
A raid leader needs to be an expert at his own class and have excellent working knowledge about what everyone else is supposed to be doing or could be doing better. If he doesn't even know what he is supposed to be doing all the time, how on Earth could he possibly know what others are? If he can't improve his own performance, how can he motivate or inspire others to do so?
I imagine that he's taking the blame at least in part because he just doesn't know who else is screwing up. And that alone is a big issue.
Speak privately with the other officers about him. Bring specific examples and incidents to the table to make your case that he needs to be replaced. If you can build a consensus on that, then you can collectively approach him about the possibility. He might actually be relieved to step down.
The trick will be to find a replacement before you take this step. You seem to have a pretty good handle on what's happening in the raid. Have you considered volunteering yourself?
If the other officers want him to continue, however, there isn't much you can do that you haven't already tried at that point. Eventually, you may need to find a new guild if the situation is unacceptable to you.
The substitute
It never fails: People both fear and resist change. If you genuinely don't believe your fill-in raid leader did anything to warrant this response, then stick up for him and say so.Hey,
I'm a member of a medium-sized guild and a raider of one of the cores. One of our new healers is quite a nice guy, and an experienced one too: he's played WOW way longer than anyone in our core, and he's very competent playing his class. He also has experience as a raid leader, so he offered to step up and lead whenever our raid leader couldn't make it.
Yesterday he led us. Because the original raid leader and two other players would be absent, people were a little unwilling to pug the empty spots when we'd be dealing with a boss we've never killed before. He stepped up and got the raid set up and ready to go -- the only "pug" was one of this friends who he knew to be a competent player. He would -- naturally, as a raid leader should -- point out our mistakes, give advice and generally coordinate the encounter which we all (except for him) had no experience on. And he was a lot less ... well, angry than our original raid leader is, and he never pointed fingers too whenever a wipe happened. I felt weird having a different leader, but I think he did very well and I'd like to see him leading us again -- even though we all love our real dirty-mouthed RL -- in similar situations.
However, two or three players of the core don't think as I did. They accused him of being rude and acting superior, and of being a terrible raid leader. One even went as far as saying he'd never raid again if the new guy would be the one leading. I was, naturally, shocked ... but that was after the raid and they logged out, so I couldn't speak to them. The new guy was also taken aback and whispered me saying he came to me because I was sort of a big sister/voice of reason there and asking if he had done anything wrong, or if I had any idea why the guys had hated him so much. One of the players had already apologized to him and said it had just been hotheadedness because we had wiped so much and not killed the boss and that those things would never leave his lips again, but I still think it was terrible.
It was terrible because the guy did his job very well and people still rejected him. It was terrible because nobody else would step up and lead the raid, which I think they should have done if they thought they could do it better. It was terrible because I really can't believe we might lose another great player and potential friend just because people had their egos stabbed a little.
I made a post about it in the core's forum and I plan to talk to the raid leader later on.
Is there anything that can be done to change this situation, or are we fated to suffer yet another loss in our ranks? Should I approach the raiders and try to ease them or leave that to the raid leader? Really, what is up with those guys and all that alpha-male-ness!?
Thanks,
Worried
The fact that someone already admitted that he or she was out of line is a sign to me that the sub didn't actually do anything wrong. He just did something different, and some of your players didn't like the change in style. To me, they come across as kids who think they can act up because their regular teacher is absent, only to throw a fit when they realize that they can't.
As the email above yours shows, a competent, willing raid leader is an all-too-rare and all-too-essential thing. Don't let anyone give the new guy a hard time unless they have a very good reason to. Consider your guild blessed that you have a substitute at all. (The Light knows what would happen in my own guild if our raid leader were suddenly unable to play.)
If someone is going to leave over something so petty, then so be it. You can't control people's opinions. You have to act in the best interest of the guild as a whole, not cater to a few grumpy individuals.
/salute
Recently, Officers' Quarters has examined how strong new leadership can create a guild turnaround, the pitfalls of promising more than you can deliver, and lessons learned from Scott's own guild demise. Send your own guild-related questions and suggestions to scott@wowinsider.com.
Filed under: Officers' Quarters (Guild Leadership)
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 1)
Shleckel Oct 17th 2011 4:20PM
This is kind of strange. And typical. This guy was put in the RL position by necessity. He stepped up when no one else would. Not even the officers. He isn't doing that great a job. So why doesn't someone else step up? That's the only other option. But people like to coach from the armchair. They don't want to have to be the one in the spotlight. @OP. You need to take this position over. If you know what is going on, then you need to do it.
Pyrrhic Oct 17th 2011 4:30PM
Or, if unwilling/unable to take over, then go elsewhere. Or learn to live with the sub-par raid leader. You can't force him to be the raid leader that you want him to be - he is who he is.
noel mcleod Oct 17th 2011 4:53PM
It's a game. Try playing it for fun, and being a little less driven. Raiders. Sheesh.
Ragen Oct 18th 2011 8:24AM
Exactly.
If you are competent enough to know:
1. Who does what wrong and what they can do to fix the mistake.
2. How to criticize players in an effective manner.
3, Can keep your own mood up to support morale.
Then why aren't you raid leading and planning raids instead of complaining about someone else who took a big leap when you weren't willing? If anything this player isn't the problem so much as your officer's indifference to the raid team. I mean you do fully understand that no one wants this roll, but you continue to backseat drive only without all the responsibility.
We were in a similar situation at the beginning of Cata. As a Senior Officer it was my job as a competent player and as a contributor to my guild's success, so I assume the raid leader position hesitantly and with the condition that I will be replace by someone better.
Simply put, if you aren't willing to shoulder the role yourself you should at least take a step back and see that this role SUCKS.
razion Oct 17th 2011 4:26PM
You got "Eventuall,y" In the paragraph before the second email, thought I'd point that out. Carry on, and excellent write-up as usual.
Rob Oct 17th 2011 5:04PM
Bah, i disagree on Scott's view, for the first time I think. The first situation I can relate as I can see myself in the 'new guys' role. Our first RL was an ass but he got things done. But here is where Scott and I differ. I think you do not need to be an expert in your class and everyone else's class to be competent. It's enough to know about the key abilities and buffs, and where everyone does well. DKs are generally really good multi-add tanks. Warriors can take the pounding of a single large target very well. Druids and shamans are typically raid healers. Etc. Also, I don't see where blame is helpful. For me, I'd like to know what happened and how to avoid it. I don't feel I need to say "Hey John, you screwed up, quit screwing up. It's enough to say "Hey John, can you tank that add a little quicker so it doesn't eat the healer's face?" To me, blame gets into a whole accusation game where the success or failure of the raid is focus on one player, when in fact it's a team effort. Yeah someone screwed up, but everyone will eventually, so cut them a little slack.
Ilmyrn Oct 17th 2011 5:23PM
I'd disagree, at least partially. A raid leader DOES need to know his class, or at least role/spec, inside and out. The reason is that the raid leader is the one to tell other people when they need to start pulling their own weight. If someone who consistently stands in fire/misses interrupts/doesn't grab adds/etc tells someone they're not doing enough, the other person is more likely to tell them to get their own house in order. As well, the better a leader knows their own class, the more they can go on 'cruise control' and keep an eye on the raid to give instructions without sacrificing DPS or healing or whatever they do.
Also, I don't think Scott was saying that they need to know every other class intimately. It's enough to know what buffs or debuffs a class or spec brings, what, in general, each class is best at, what specs are best for their role, how each fight in the raid they're working on goes, etc. If they don't know THAT much, they can't effectively lead raids.
Baribal Oct 17th 2011 5:52PM
Also you got your example backwards.
DKs = Better single target, Warriors = Better multi.
Shield Bro.
GreenerGrass Oct 17th 2011 5:11PM
One of the things I like to point out in situations similar to what "Trying to Win" describes where somebody wants to take all the blame in order to avoid ruffled feathers (or in some cases where people want to argue over whose minor mistake was the reason we wiped) is that, on the next run-through, there's something *every* person present can do different or better. This sometimes help get the discussion onto the topic of how to improve without focusing on blame or hurting people's feelings. ("Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.")
People who refuse to admit they did anything imperfectly (or that they ever make mistakes) are generally so poisonous to be around that running with them tends to be counterproductive anyway.
alykii Oct 17th 2011 5:44PM
Wow - I had almost the exact same thing happen to me as Worried (#2) did. Had a raid leader step up when nobody else would, great guy, knows his stuff but the style was different from what a lot of members were used to. Luckily I run multiple raid groups with a different leader in each group - so the "haters" were eventually placed in another group. I was just shocked as well at the feedback I got from those players.
loli.gigis Oct 17th 2011 6:21PM
I have to say... all the officers should be able to lead a raid. That just seems like common sense to me. And even if an officer doesn't know something about a fight the knowledge of the whole group should be more then sufficient to get a raid through an encounter.
Killik Oct 18th 2011 5:19AM
I'd respectfully disagree. My old guild's recruitment officer, for example, is a witty and entertaining conversationalist, but in a raid he just tunnel-vision dpses whatever's put in front of him. Raid leading requires some level of higher situational awareness.
loli.gigis Oct 18th 2011 12:23PM
Again the knowledge of the raid as a whole should be able to get them through an encounter. Just because he has DPS tunnel vision doesn't mean he couldn't help the other DPS figure out what they are supposed to be doing. I tend to do the same thing Melee wise (I am not an officer though) but if another melee DPS was having issues I could tell them what to do in the encounter but I can't really give you a good explanation of what ranged need to do. Raids work best when everyone is helping instead of relying on one person to know everything.
LynMars Oct 17th 2011 6:43PM
Why have one assigned raid lead if the main guy can't make it--or you don't have one?
Our raid lead recently got a new job which is making it hard for him to come each night currently. So someone else has stepped in to run those nights. We also have a couple others capable of running the raid, and they have in the past. They have varying styles of leadership and levels of class knowledge (for other than their own), but they know the encounters and how we, as a group, tend to do them and can work with the players. They don't always want to run raid, but as officers, they take on the duty as needed to just get us through that night and on to the next when the RL can be there.
Perhaps a rotating schedule of 2-3 officers would help ease the burden of active nightly leadership, though it comes with its own problems and issues, but those officers should already be working and communicating as a team, anyway. And what sort of things is a large team of officers doing in a raid guild, anyway, if not helping raids run smoothly?
Monion Oct 17th 2011 8:00PM
Sometimes it's hard enough getting that one person to step up to be raid leader in the first place, let alone finding someone else.
I'm one of two primary raid leaders in my guild, we each run our own Firelands 10 raid, and not many other people want to step up, at all. For example, I'm out visitng family next weekend, so the raid is cancelled since I can't be there. It kinda sucks knowing that my external activities are preventing people from running in-game, but really, I'm not because no one else wants to step up (even though I've put out feelers for co-leads in the recent past), but on the other hand I know how much of a chore raid leading can be to someone who's heart is only half in.
Attendance, boss strategies, understanding people's strengths and weaknesses, having a general understanding of specs, as well as gauging the mood, knowing when to push and to relax, and being able to mediate disputes. It's no wonder that many people have no want to take that kind of responsibility on. Ultimately, I find it often rewarding to see my team down new bosses, get loot they're excited about and see new locales, but not everyone can (or wants) to take the extra effort to herd the cats to get there, not to mention that not all officers are created equal. Depending on the officer's role, they may only be raiding as a member, with their duties having little to no overlap with raid leading.
Ekin Oct 17th 2011 7:20PM
Typically in my experience the person that steps up to the plate in what is often a rough time (losing a good raid lead) is almost never the right person for the job at least in the long term.
In most cases they step up because they have a heart of gold; not exactly the best thing to have when ordering people around (too easily manipulated usually) in most cases and they are usually also really hard on themselves. Failing that you get the opposite "The raging prick" they step up out of necessity (or at the request of the guild) but they begrudge feeling the need to do so and thus turn into a monster whenever they are leading even if they are friendly/helpful person otherwise.
Ive experienced both kinds heck I've been the latter and in my experience the best ones are the ones that can dance that line between nice and nasty, the reality is sometimes you just need to smack some of your raiders around the head, others require a gentler touch.
That is not to say people who step up to the plate will always be one of those two but in a tight spot at least in my experience at least in the short term you'll get one of those two.
Beelzebud Oct 17th 2011 7:35PM
Having been in a situation very similar to "John", the only thing I can say is this: Stop bitching about it, and step up to the plate. If no one else but this one guy would assume the role, then step up and help out in a meaningful way. I kept a guild alive for 1.5 years, in a role I was never keen about taking on. The problem was that no one else would do it. So in that situation, is it really the fault of the guy who did his best to keep things going, or is it the fault of other people around him, who could easily assist, but do not?
Needless to say, I don't even play WoW at all anymore, because I got tired of being second guessed by a bunch of people that would never step up to the plate and help out. Overall I found that being leading in WoW wasn't rewarding. When your raid goes well everyone celebrates "how great *WE* are", but when they go bad it's "hey this is *YOUR* problem". Now I just enjoy single player RPGs. LOL
Ishayu Oct 30th 2011 11:00PM
Our guild, which I am guildleader of, works a little different actually. We literally don't have a raidleader at all. After every fight, those who saw a mistake says so, and we improve. As guildleader, I sum up the problems and try to connect the dots that led to the mistakes being made. I also help members with optimal keybinding, character control and speccing.
In this way, we took a mostly inexperienced group of players and within 3 weeks had 7/7 Firelands.
Sometimes, 20 eyes are just better than 2! :)