Encrypted Text: Rogue news from BlizzCon 2011

I love BlizzCon. I am a long-time fan of each of Blizzard's Big Three games, and I am eagerly awaiting next year's triple release of Diablo 3 paired with the StarCraft and WoW expansions. Channeling my rogue reflexes, I conquered the BlizzCon ticket boss again this year, so I had the opportunity to visit BlizzCon in person. While in Anaheim, I tried out a Pandaren monk, crushed some cowards in a Diablo PVP match, and shredded a batch of zerglings before losing to so many banelings. To all of those who I met at the WoW Insider Reader Meetup and on the convention floor, it was great to meet you!
I have been collecting my notes on what we learned at BlizzCon about the future of rogues, but I am realizing that there's not much news. We're losing access to ranged weapons, but we will be able to simply throw our melee weapons with Throw and Fan of Knives. The revamp of the talent system affects everyone, and there's no use diving into the new trees since they're not even close to being finalized. Pandaren rogues will be available in Mists of Pandaria, but that's not really exciting information, is it?
BlizzCon's class Q&A
I had the opportunity to ask the developers a question again this year, following my Vanish and off-hand weapon questions from past BlizzCons. After thanking them for the upcoming rogue legendaries, I asked about how Blizzard intends to keep rogues useful with the addition of yet another melee hybrid (and an agility leather-wearing one, at that).
There are currently three plate-based melee hybrids, with warriors and death knights capable of tanking and paladins capable of both tanking and healing. With the formalization of the feral (cat) spec and the introduction of windwalker monks, there are now three agility-based melee hybrids capable of healing, including enhancement shaman. As the melee pile gets even more crowded and new classes and specs arise that fill the same role as rogues while wearing the same gear, how are we differentiated to keep us useful? Raid leaders will have seven different melee classes to choose from, and rogues are the only one of those classes that can't bring any healing or off-tanking capabilities to a raid encounter.
Anything we can do, they can do too
The developers have caught some heat for their answer to my question, which indicated that stuns and the ability to apply Crippling Poison via Fan of Knives pass for raid utility at Blizzard HQ. The truth is that rogues do provide stuns and slows, but these features are more prevalent in PVP or dungeons than they are in raids. In addition, it's not as if the other melee specs aren't bringing these same things. Throwdown, Hammer of Justice, and Asphyxiate are all stuns that make Kidney Shot look weak in comparison. Using Fan of Knives to apply Crippling Poison sounds nice, but then again, it's not as if Piercing Howl doesn't do a better job.
I'm fine with the other melee classes having similar stuns and snares to rogues. There's nothing wrong with a little bit of parity when it comes to melee classes, especially under the bring the player, not the class mantra. The issue of rogue utility is more about what we're lacking, rather than what we're packing.
It's the non-melee abilities
Why would feral druids be preferred over a rogue in a raid environment, assuming our damage is similar and we both share the same positional requirements for many of our abilities? Gear distribution is identical since both classes roll on agility leather, and feral druids don't really bring any buffs that a subtlety rogue couldn't bring as well. Our mobility is close with Shadowstep mirroring Kitty Leap, and we both have some modicum of self-healing. So why would a raid leader put his rogues on the bench?
Tranquility. Rebirth. Innervate. These are the feral druid's non-melee abilities, which have nothing to do with being a feral druid, and they're tipping the scales against us. The problem with rogues isn't that we're not capable -- we have a complete toolbox that lets us do our job admirably. The issue comes from all of the abilities that druids and paladins and monks are picking up from their other trees, granting them gifts outside of the melee realm. In a world with equal damage, it's not that rogues aren't a perfectly adequate melee DPS class -- it's that everyone else brings bonus abilities from their off specs.
Most of the normal heals and tanking abilities that the hybrid classes aren't a big deal, as a few Rejuvenations or a Shield Wall won't really change the outcome of a fight very much. The powerful hybrid cooldown abilities, especially those that are raid-wide, are where the gap between hybrids and pures is found.
Mists of Pandaria might be the solution
Mists of Pandaria is bringing a massive reworking to the ability and talent system, with many abilities that were previously available to a class becoming spec-specific. Rather than confusing players with abilities that didn't make sense for their spec, they receive only the abilities that their specific spec needs. This revamp could be the opportunity that keeps rogues relevant into MoP and beyond.
Imagine if only feral druids didn't have Tranquility. Would DPS warriors be preferred over rogues if they didn't have access to Rallying Cry? The tanking and healing off-spec abilities that support bringing a hybrid melee over a rogue could be restricted to only the specs that need them, leveling the playing field. If all of the melee classes are dealing around the same DPS and there were no off-spec abilities that promoted bringing hybrid melee, I would be content.
Filed under: Rogue, (Rogue) Encrypted Text






Reader Comments (Page 1 of 2)
Warlock Oct 26th 2011 4:14PM
The answer they gave to your question was really unacceptable. The sad thing is, our new talents seem to reflect this philosophy too. I mean, we have an entire tier devoted to stuns! Unless they plan on making raid bosses stunnable, that's pretty much a pure pvp tier. I really don't think they get it, which is a shame.
Angus Oct 26th 2011 5:43PM
You didn't pay attention to the other classes did you?
EVERY class has that tier. Rogues have a stun tier. Priests have a fear tier. It is a CC tier that is pretty much PVP dominated with a little PVE usefulness maybe thrown in. It isn't always in the same spot, and some are just roots or knockbacks, but they are all there.
It isn't like Rogues were picked on here.
Warlock Oct 26th 2011 9:36PM
Except Rogues have two of those tiers. Tier 2 and 5 might as well be the same tier. They both have the same types of talents.
JaimeRavenholdt Oct 26th 2011 4:25PM
Hey Chase. Thanks for bringing up key concerns for us with MoP on the horizon and grabbing us that extra bit of information in the Q&A that we'd otherwise miss.
I'm still very concerned with Subtlety's viability. I face the question "Why bring him?" more than any other Rogue because I am Sub. Hell, I even ask myself why anyone would bring me. We already have Ferals, Hunter pets, and Mages for the +5% crit and my damage output, even with fully forged Sub gear, is lackluster compared to my DPS in other specs.
I love it's complexity, but I think it's theoretical damage output scares Blizzard away from bumping up the realistic damage output. On the spread sheet, Subtlety tops both other specs, last I recall. In reality, the complexity, speed, and the fact that we aren't advanced AI, set Sub damage far behind Combat resting in third place for Rogue spec DPS.
I don't believe anyone asked anything about Sub at Blizzcon. Perhaps giving all Rogues Shadowstep will open up something else where it once was in Subtlety's priority. Everyone cheered at that, but Blizzard failed to comment on how they're going to then make Subtlety Rogues feel more unique again.
Did you hear anything Chase? Do you know what I know? Is there hope for us under represented Sub Rogues in Mists of Pandaria? Cataclysm teased me with Sub PvE viability, and it's admittedly better, but I'm hard pressed to resubscribe after the reality broke my heart. Can you do your Rogue thing and "extract" information from someone for me? :) Or at least, give me hope?
jordan Oct 26th 2011 4:31PM
Part of the problem is also the innate versatility that hybrids offer compared to pures. Rogues need a noticeable gain in damage of around 5-10% to be even competitive with other melee under these circumstances. Maybe they will be more liberal with the hybrid tax but I'm being overly optimistic. I expect rogue numbers to take a big dent with 2 new specs to compete with for gear and achievements account wide.
Narlic Oct 26th 2011 4:34PM
What did you think about the poison talents we saw? The ones with no damage component to them? If all of the talents are supposed to be about even, how does a damage-free poison work in with that? Perhaps poisons will be reworked entirely, or damage will be added to them?
Also, do you feel that the legendary proc will really make the daggers usable for combat? Mutilate is going to pee itself with all of those envenoms... I wonder if we could get a two-type Sinister Strike (ie: a different damage amount for daggers). I wish the 4.3 changes for rogues would show up!
Murdertime Oct 26th 2011 4:45PM
They've already put it up.
Wound Poison is now a 25% healing debuff, along with the other Mortal Strikes.
I have a strong suspicion that that's it, given how far they are into raid testing.
jordan Oct 26th 2011 4:49PM
It's too early to tell. They said not to worry about numbers so maybe the talents are incomplete. Either that or rogues could have primary poisons that deal damage and secondary poisons for effects.
mikebulko Oct 26th 2011 4:51PM
I remember there was talk that combat daggers was going to be made viable again so they don't lose out on the legendary. Whether it's a retooling of each spell, a new talent (either of which making combat daggers work with or without the legendary -- which I kind of hope), or just something build into the Fangs themselves, I don't know. But every time I look at the PTR patch notes updates and see that rogues aren't even on there, it makes me suspect that there's some major reworking going on.
mikebulko Oct 26th 2011 4:56PM
Oh and re: the talent system poisons, using talents on those poisons would (I assume) end up in your spellbook, and not just add items in your inventory, I'm suspecting that poisons will become like Shaman weapon enchants.
twbrienn Oct 26th 2011 5:46PM
The word going around on MMO-Champion is that http://ptr.wowhead.com/spell=110211 seems to be the fix for combat. 45% more damage on SS, RS and MG. Though KS is noticeably absent, possibly just a mistake.
jordan Oct 26th 2011 4:34PM
Wonder if they'll ever make expose armor viable? That was really up there on the class feedback as something that sucks.
Lemons Oct 26th 2011 5:17PM
Hopefully they just remove it. Or better yet it's a passive ability. Yep, I just expose armor whatever I'm stabbing...sounds good to me.
John Oct 26th 2011 4:48PM
I don't mean to be overly critical, but I read a lot of your thoughts about class balance relating to other classes, and some opinions about raid viability of rogues, but where's the rogue news? I came here looking for something about how they're (maybe) re-working Sinister Strike to work with daggers or...something. Sorry man, good article, just hoping for more news about my favourite class. Been a lack of it lately.
Chase Christian Oct 26th 2011 4:59PM
Well, I really wish I had more info to share, there wasn't much discussed at BlizzCon.
As for the legendary weapons and combat, it looks like SS, Revealing Strike, and Main Gauche will be buffed by some percentage (say 45%) when the daggers are equipped, but the numbers and tuning are all anecdotal from early research in the PTR.
Murdertime Oct 26th 2011 4:53PM
I am deeply, deeply concerned that Monks are going to kill Rogues and take our best stuff and that we're going to see a lot of abilities that feel like we might have gotten them if they hadn't gone to monks instead.
Chase Christian Oct 26th 2011 5:01PM
I agree, and that was my primary concern. "Martial arts-focused energy-based agility leather-wearing dual-wielding melee class" sounds a hell of a lot like a rogue, and so I am certain that there is going to be some pain when we see all of the unique stuff that Blizzard has planned for the Windwalkers.
Diop Oct 26th 2011 6:02PM
I'm not too worried, Warriors and Death Knights are both "unstoppable plate juggernauts that can tank or DPS and choose to dual wield or use 2h" but I never really felt like Warriors were going to get Death Grip, or disease, or any of the stuff that makes Death Knights, Death Knights.
I mean, I certainly don't think Rogues were ever in the offing for a healing or tanking tree so that's already 2/3rd of the trees you don't have to worry about.
Lizenz Oct 26th 2011 7:20PM
Many of you may consider this silly, but even though Monks will be able to beat faces in melee-style with an energy/rune 2.0 system that will obviously be far better than anything any class has ever had to date resource-wise. And sure they can do all this cool shit WHILE healing (whatever...). And sure they will be super badass bo staff-wielding tanks of utter destruction. But the real question, the one that makes me love rogues more than any other class when in a dungeon group at least...
...can they pick locks?
Orrine Oct 26th 2011 11:45PM
Well, Case, you can always become new Monk columnist :)