Today in Pandaria: Friday, Oct. 28, 2011 -- Zarhym uses Gandalf. Zarhym wins.
by Adam Holisky 
Oct 28th 2011 at 11:30PM
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Blue posts
Gandalf invades the Theramore/favoritism debate
Quote:
It would be nice if a blue would reply and post point by point how we are wrong about the favoritism. Going "No there isn't!" and then ignoring the thread doesn't really help the situation. :-\
It would be nice if a blue would reply and post point by point how we are wrong about the favoritism. Going "No there isn't!" and then ignoring the thread doesn't really help the situation. :-\
Yea, I'm not going to spoil where the story is going to try and make you feel better. :)
I'm not ignoring the thread either. I've had several conversations with Lead Quest Designer Dave Kosak about threads like this one, what will happen with Theramore, as well as where things will go from there. But there's very little else I can say in this thread that I haven't already to ease your mind. We have a story to tell, know how we want to tell it, and have a clear direction we're going. Many people in this thread have already accused me of making false promises in the past, or saying my words here are empty, so my feeling is you'll just have to see what happens.
I'd never monitor a thread like this and respond as much as I have here just to be deceitful or disingenuous, by the way. It's not how I roll and is why I'm fortunate to work for a pretty face-value, honest company. No puppeteer's hand is in my rear right now.
Quote:
Were you unaware of the feeling that Alliance got hosed in this expansion? I don't think you were. Why, then, would the single tidbit of information released be the (possible?) destruction of Theramore? It fuels the fires you already know are burning. Exceedingly poor choice to release this scrap of information instead of something showing how the Alliance gains something at last.
Were you unaware of the feeling that Alliance got hosed in this expansion? I don't think you were. Why, then, would the single tidbit of information released be the (possible?) destruction of Theramore? It fuels the fires you already know are burning. Exceedingly poor choice to release this scrap of information instead of something showing how the Alliance gains something at last.
Because chronology matters? Other than stating that Mists of Pandaria will focus much more on the fight between the Horde and the Alliance, we haven't detailed any specific story elements of that fight. The attack on Theramore is an event which will take place prior to the release of the new expansion to aggressively advance the war between the factions following Deathwing's death, further highlighting what Garrosh's motivations are in contrast to Varian's.
Garrosh wants the Horde to control all of Kalimdor. His attacks thus far have been toward that end, but Theramore remains a major port town and supply line for the Alliance. It's an obvious strategic move for a power-hungry and prideful ruler such as Garrosh to seize Theramore. If you don't think there will be repercussions for that in an expansion largely based on the fight between the Horde and Alliance in post-Cataclysm Azeroth, you're probably focusing way too much on being unable to draw direct and equivalent plays for dominance and time in the limelight between the Horde and Alliance -- and calling "foul" on our part for not making sure every release under the Warcraft name has linear, equal advancement for two vastly different factions.
This is honestly an odd and difficult conversation to have about Theramore right now. It'd be like reading Lord of the Rings up to the point where Gandalf gets trapped atop Orthanc, stopping there, hearing from someone that he later falls to his death fighting a balrog, then complaining that his character could've been developed so much better before the story ended.
Yea, I went there. I really, truly need a weekend, 'cause I didn't get one last week.
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Reader Comments (Page 1 of 7)
Noyou Oct 29th 2011 12:02AM
It seems like people are going way to far on the Theramore thing. It sucks, taken at face value. Most people don't even know Theramore exists. I do think it's very curious that they would leak that it gets destroyed but, that's their option.
Al Oct 29th 2011 12:22AM
Yeah, it's pretty hard to not notice, and all....
Bionic Radd Oct 29th 2011 12:26AM
Think of Theramore as Pearl Harbor. Now think about how well Pearl Harbor worked out for Japan in WW2. I find the idea of major lore towns getting hosed really damn exciting, personally. They teased all-out war for 60 levels in the new Cata 1-60 zones. I am ready to get it on.
DragonFireKai Oct 29th 2011 1:02AM
@Bionic
Here's the problem with that assumption, do you really think that Blizzard is going to let the Alliance do anything to the Horde that even approaches what the Allied forces did to any of the Axis Powers in WWII? Japan was firebombed, nuked, occupied for years, and pretty much an entire generation of young men killed. They're not going to let that happen to the Horde. So it's poor storytelling to try and ramp up the emotional levels to that kind of a fervor. What's going to happen is more along the lines of the end of WWI, where both sides just stopped fighting, and the allies declared themselves winner, and the Germans sulked about how no one actually beat them. There's a reason why there aren't very many games set in WWI, and there's a ton set in WWII. WWII had a complete victory over an unambigously evil foe. WWI had a dissatisfying Armistice between two powers who just got tired of the grind. One is a compelling story, the other is not.
Murdertime Oct 29th 2011 2:42AM
I think one of the big issues here that I'm seeing in a lot of the responses is that some people really, really want the Horde to be the bad guys of the piece, with a narrative built around heroic Alliance overcoming adversity
The Alliance heroically triumphing in a battle that ends with them standing over Garrosh's corpse in a smouldering Ogrimmar as the Horde run, broken and terrified after the Alliance fair and virtous battle, with only a few cunning schemes by a group of likable roguish swashbuckling types to overcome orc treachery?
That poses all sorts of problems.
icepyro Oct 29th 2011 2:48AM
Sure, Blizz won't let the Horde just die, but to call Theramore Azeroth's Pearl Harbor probably isn't far from the truth. The Alliance has been pussyfooting around or making really poor strategic decisions (a road through the Barrens?? Really??!) and the repercussions are now obvious (Night Elves hippy ways losing ground in Ashenvale, burn the road back to the source, Andorhol fiasco, etc.). If this is what it takes to make the Alliance realize that Garrosh means to be a victorious Warchief and not just a placeholder, then far be it for me to complain. It took Pearl Harbor for the US to stop dancing around and join WWII, and now the Alliance has fire. I say BRING IT.
Spellotape Oct 29th 2011 3:11AM
I really wonder how this is going to be handled ... quests for the Horde to decimate Theramore? Quests for the Alliance to try in vain to stop it?
crimsonninja85 Oct 29th 2011 3:36AM
So wouldn't calling it pearl harbor be going in reverse order. It was attack then internment camps not internment camps the attack.
Thatguy Oct 29th 2011 5:48AM
@Dragonfirekai
If the horde can decimate one of our cities what would make you think they wouldnt let the alliance do the same. I'm pretty damn sure Jaina could Destroy an entire city herself. We've at least seen her take out Garrosh' rival, Varian, and his entire elite guard with a single spell.
and whats this about losing a city? Did we forget the reason ogrimmar is being rebuilt is because it burned down?
Blayze Oct 29th 2011 7:23AM
http://memegenerator.net/instance/10974360
The problem with Theramore's destruction sparking a renewed war is that any conflicts that happen on Pandaria as a result simply. do. not. matter. We're still going to come home to Sentinel Hill in flames, Stonard not destroyed because there's a portal there versus Theramore wiped from the map, and an Andorhal lost simply because after wiping out the enemy.
Theramore was touted as the "first strike," which was a load of rubbish. We've lost territory after territory this expansion in the name of zone balance, and now we're losing again. Why wouldn't the Alliance take this war seriously after losing on virtually all fronts? Why must we lose another place to kickstart a war that should already be in overdrive? Why can't the Horde lose somewhere for a change?
(On a side note, apparently 1:1 parity and a back-and-forth conflict are important when the Horde are down zones, but apparently they're not important when the Alliance get kicked in the teeth for an entire expansion)
DragonFireKai Oct 29th 2011 7:49AM
@Thatguy
1st is the problem that the closest equivilent to Theramore for the Horde in terms of Lore importance is Bilgewater Harbor. It's the largest city the Horde has outside the capitals. From a gameplay perspective, Theramore is Stonard and Grom'gal COMBINED. It is both out primary port to the other continent and the non capital portal city.
The problem is that we're fighting against the immutable facts of WoW.
1: Neither faction is going away. The Horde will not conquer the Alliance, and the Alliance will not Vanquish the Horde.
2: Budgetary concerns outstrip lore. They will not do heavy revamps on zones that they just overhauled in Cataclysm. That means that Ashenvale, despite everything going on in Wolfheart, will remain in game as the site where the Alliance counterattack was foiled by a single kodo.
Because of this, we know that the war will end in a stalemate. The two factions will retain an equal number of capitol cities, and the general questing flows will not be impeded. The Alliance will not break down the wall and push into Mulgore.
The problem that Blizzard's shortsightedness in Cataclysm is that they've allowed the story to get away from them. The Horde sank an Alliance Fleet in Howling Fjord, The Horde butchered more Alliance soldiers than the Scourge at Wrathgate, the Horde wiped out the Alliance in an ambush at the Death Gate, The Horde won WSG when they seized Ashenvale, the Horde won AV when they nuked the Stormpike Brigade in Hillsbrad, The Horde nuked an Alliance school in Stonetalon, The Horde inexplicably threw back the Alliance's assault on Stonard, The Horde bottled up the 7th legion and prevented them from taking Silverpine, The Horde massacred a bunch of Kirin Tor Mages in their own pocket dimension, The Horde murdered emmisaries of the Argent Crusade at Maestra's Post, The Horde destroyed the Oldest Dwarf Settlement on the Continent of Kalimdor in Southern Barrens, The Horde siezed Andorhol despite the Alliance defeating Koltira's army, and deafeating the Val'kyr sent by Sylvanas. The Alliance, on the other hand, burn down Camp Turajo.
What this chain of events has done is it's given the Horde the appearance of momentum. The Horde War Machine looks unstoppable. Having it wipe out Theramore will only exacerbate this problem. As it stands right now, there's no real excuse for why the Horde haven't already wiped out the Night Elf presence in northern Kalimdor, or why the Forsaken aren't already knocking on Ironforge's gates. The transition from Hillsbrad to Arathi for a forsaken player is actually really jarring, you go from rolling through the best the Alliance has to offer for two zones straight to skulking through a crypt in Stromgaurd to steal a sword.
With all the momentum the Horde has, the Alliance is going to have to do something decisive to save themselves. They'll need a Midway, or a Gettysburg, or an El-Alamein. The problem is, each of those battles heralded the crushing defeat of the side that lost. Once the tables are turned, the Alliance will look even more unstoppable than the Horde does now. But because the Horde can't go away, something rediculous is going to have to save the Horde at that point. Like Varian suddenly developing a sense of empathy for the orcs, or Rhonin riding in on a pack of sentient raptors. We're talking Knaack levels of bad narrative here.
Of course, the absolute worst thing Blizzard could do would be to have the Horde implode under internal tensions. If thrall returned, removed Garrosh, and saved the alliance from extinction. Or if Vol'jin made good on his promise of assassination. After all the beatings the Alliance has taken thus far, the faction would be completely emasculated. They would become the Washington Generals of Warcraft. While that would make the Horde the Harlem Globetrotters, keep this in mind, no one takes the Generals seriously, and because of that, no one takes their opponent, the Globetrotters to be anything more than a joke. If Blizzard doesn't let the Alliance stand up to the Horde and solve this without 3rd party intervention, then the Alliance ceases to be an effecitve foil to the Horde, and the entire dual faction narrative falls apart.
Murdertime Oct 29th 2011 8:10AM
The parity is important when the Horde player gets substantially less actual gameplay than the alliance despite paying the same amount every month.
It's a bit harder to make that case for a mostly subjective measure like Lore balance, where someone is going to get screwed when the story focus moves off them and what constitutes getting screwed shifts from player to player.
DragonFireKai Oct 29th 2011 8:38AM
Murdertime, I don't know how you can objectively look at what the Goblins get when they leave Kezan, and what the Worgen get when they leave Gilneas, and say that anywhere near the same amount of effort went into the experiences.
SamLowry Oct 29th 2011 10:45AM
"and whats this about losing a city? Did we forget the reason ogrimmar is being rebuilt is because it burned down?"
Didn't happen in-game, so it didn't happen.
And if the Horde destroy Theramore because they want to take over Kalimdor, does that mean the Alliance gets the Undercity?
But have you seen the place? Icky-poo. The cleanup costs will be enormous, and I get lost in there even when playing Horde!
Arrohon Oct 29th 2011 11:01AM
Why does the Alliance have to lose another city to actually do something? Simply due to that city being Theramore. We could see every Alliance stronghold taken down BUT Theramore without any successful Alliance retaliation. Why? Jaina lives in Theramore and not in SW or anywhere else. She's the min-maxing arcane mage in T27 doing MC. She's incredibly powerful, but wants peace so bad that losing her home will likely be what it takes for her to shove a Frostbolt up Garrosh's arse. It's like cutting down a forest where only one tree has a bees nest. You're fine until you try to cut down that tree because you now have a swarm of tiny pissed suicide bombers flying at your face.
Thomas Higgins Oct 29th 2011 6:01PM
I cannot be arsed with all this Horde v Alliance emphasis that seems to be the underlying driving force for this next paid for balls up. What is the sodding point? The Big Bad, Sargeras, is still out there. He wants Azeroth as his fiefdom and the rest of us either dead, part of his forces or enslaved.
Surely he should and could have been the main driver for the next proper expansion? Instead of infesting the game with more vermin in a "pleasing to the eye" two colored form. Pandas are meant to be fun? Hah. Hah. Hah. That is a joke.
ki Oct 29th 2011 11:42PM
@Sam
Didn't happen in game so it didn't happen at all? U better be trolling. The events of the shattering led up to org getting attacked by elementals and burned.
That's like saying. The events leading up to the dragon soul beingforged or arthas invading the sunwell or malfurion escaping the dream didn't happen cause they weren't "in game
Book or not, the events ARE canon. Look at the next patch with thrall and the aspects. Did you read twilight of the aspects? You sure have no right to even speak about lore
Corath Oct 29th 2011 12:08AM
Zarhym is my hero.
Xabidar Oct 29th 2011 12:14AM
Oh snap, he went there.
But in all seriousness, it is getting pretty tiring hearing about the attack on Theramore. It may or may not be permanently destroyed, we have yet to hear any solid details, and we have no idea what other developments may happen.
In my opinion, I find it rather impressive that this eliciting such a strong response from the players, it just cements in my mind that Blizzard has been telling a compelling story this whole time, because people are that emotionally involved.
Cephas Oct 29th 2011 9:13AM
I really think you hit it on the head there. Good stories play with a range of emotions. If the guys you're rooting for are just always winning or are at least on equal footing it's hard to do anything interesting with the story.
Some people are just upset that not every Alliance loss is getting balanced out by a Horde loss, which apparently isn't "fair", to which I would say, no, I suppose strictly speaking it isn't fair, but Blizzard is trying to tell a story here. Where they can take that story is already restricted by gameplay considerations, so I don't think we should further restrict them by demanding that everything be fair. "All's fair in love and war", right? Well, this is a war.
Finally, I'd like to give my reaction as a Horde player. I am extremely upset at Garrosh over this. Theramore is quite possibly the last Alliance city on the whole planet that Thrall would have condoned attacking - and with good reason. While true peace between the Horde and Alliance will never be possible, we were never closer to that goal than the relative peace that existed between Theramore and Orgrimmar ever since Jaina fought alongside the Horde to regain control of the city from her own father. Throwing all of that away is just so reckless and shortsighted. This will certainly hit Thrall hard when he hears of it, and I for one want this to be Garrosh's last action as Warchief before Thrall gives him a thorough butt-kicking and takes back the throne.