Mists of Pandaria: The myth of the talent tree choice

To be fair, there are a lot of terrific ideas in what Blizzard is planning to do with our talent trees. Removed are the choices that everyone should make. And yes, Blizzard did say that in Cataclysm, but this time, the designers mean it. What shadow priest doesn't take Vampiric Touch? What balance druid doesn't invest that crucial talent point to take Moonkin Form?
But ultimately, if the goal here is to make things easier on the players, to make this a choice that players don't need to extensively research, Blizzard totally missed the mark.
During the BlizzCon 2011 Class Panel, Greg "Ghostcrawler" Street (lead systems designer) explained the new philosophy for the Mists of Pandaria talent system. The basic points are this:
- Blizzard wants you to be able to access new abilities and combinations that you never had before, like a shadow priest being able to cast the (now discipline priest spell) Power Infusion.
- Blizzard wants to move away from cookie-cutter trees. That means it wants to create a system where there is no wrong choice, where every talent is just as valid as the next.
But guess what? These new talent trees they introduced are absolutely counter to the intent of simplification. And as much as Ghostcrawler wants you to believe that there are no wrong answers, there always will be. Always.
The truth
No offense to those of you reading, but a large number of World of Warcraft players are lazy. They don't like hard choices. Or, more specifically: They like choices as hard as they're able to handle.
Players may not all be top-tier raiders, but even casual players aren't stupid. Each and every player is going to take a look at these new-for-Mists of Pandaria talents and instinctually know that there's a right choice and there's a wrong choice. No one wants to be that guy with the messed-up tree -- like it or not, we're all judged by other players based on those choices we make. No matter how long you've been playing, I guarantee you've heard someone belittle someone else over some in-game choice that they've made.
What's that, you say? There aren't going to be any right or wrong choices? Wrong, my friend. There are. Take a look at the level 75 priest talents, for instance:

It's far too early to theorycraft fights that don't yet exist (obviously), but as soon as Mists of Pandaria bosses hit the PTR for testing, you better bet that every Elitist Jerk in existence will be running the numbers, determining what talent is best for which fight.
In short, we didn't get rid of cookie-cutter talent trees. We simply created the need for far more cookie-cutter builds -- one per raid encounter. And maybe one for PVP. And another for heroics. And yet another for soloing.
Is this all a bad thing?
Look, it's easy to understand what Ghostcrawler and the rest are trying to do. Getting rid of easy choices is a slam dunk. But if they want you to believe that any talent or benefit that doesn't have a number can't be theorycrafted, they're wrong. It happens now. And it's going to happen when MoP launches. It's just that the theorycrafting that's going to happen will get much more complex than ever before.
You'll still have sites like Elitist Jerks, WoW Insider, and all sorts of other community sites (like shadowpriest.com) offering their opinions as to what builds are best -- it's what we do. There will be logic to back them up, some with raw math, others with computer simulations as is done now. Many of these suggestions will be made inside the margin of error with a healthy dose of guessing, but the suggestions will be there. Cookie cutters will exist. People will still judge you for your choices. It's a part of MMORPGs.
If you're a top raider, you'll be doing more research instead of less. But isn't that what a lot of you complainers want, anyway? More variables? Complexity that makes you feel more self-important?
And for the rest of you, whether you want to be called "casuals," "casual raiders," or just "normies," you'll have cookie cutters to fall back on. You can spend as much time researching fights as you want to perfect your build, even if that preferred amount of time is zero. Because when this new talent system launches, in many situations, even the experts will have no clue which talent is best. Theorycrafting isn't an exact science. It's educated guessing.
Ultimately, though Blizzard didn't accomplish its goal of removing cookie-cutter builds, you can't fault it -- that task is impossible. What Blizzard did do is create a whole new, better system, where hard choices have to be made ... choices centering around utility. It's a huge step in the right direction. If World of Warcraft is to have any talent system at all, it should be closer to the one we're getting than the one we have.
The news is out -- we'll be playing Mists of Pandaria! Find out what's in store with an all-new talent system, peek over our shoulder at our Pandaren hands-on, and get ready to battle your companion pets against others. It's all here right at WoW Insider!Filed under: Analysis / Opinion, BlizzCon, Mists of Pandaria






Reader Comments (Page 1 of 9)
jfofla Oct 31st 2011 8:07PM
Well that's depressing as hell
vocenoctum Oct 31st 2011 8:28PM
Realistically, it's always the way though. If your choices matter, then there's a clear need to maximize the choice. The only way to avoid that is to make your choices not matter.
I was with them (in spirit!) on the Cata talent revamp, the old trees were bloated and yada yada yada. The new trees still offered some choice while leveling (of what to get first, plus leveling is different than endgame), and the "cookie cutter" builds usually had a few points where you could decide what you wanted.
These new "talents" are just underwhelming for me. While leveling they're almost meaningless, at max they're toggle switches for encounters. The abilities that have a profound effect will probably be nerfed hard when abused in beta and the choices that make it to live will be the uninteresting stuff, I think.
ugoticedbro Oct 31st 2011 8:42PM
Thats what shadow priests like Fox do. They feed on your tears.
Overall, though, good article. He's right, everything is situational. Also, some of the talents are going to be virtually useless outside of pvp. Some are going to be useless for pvp altogether.
What worries me is the end of this expansion when they roll out the new talent system before we hit 90. Shouldn't be too bad, but things like arms warriors losing bladestorm until 90, what about add phases in the dragon soul raid? This could, if only for a month or so, break some classes until mists is released.
WrecklessMEDIC Oct 31st 2011 8:46PM
FINALLY! ...Thank you Fox! I've been saying Blizzard's new talent system could never eliminate cookie-cutter builds all week. That one talent will always be better than the other two no matter how much tweaking and balancing they try to do.
Glad I wasn't the only one who could see the giant Panda in the room. ;)
portague Oct 31st 2011 9:00PM
breaking classes around the time of an expansion seem to be normal.
Something they should change is the turning to nerfing the skill in a tier first to maybe buffing that tiers other spells first. Theres no reason they should not average out the same mathmatically but still retain situational use. We will still have cookie cutters the magnitude of them will be signaficantly higher. This does mean that it could lead to a desired talent a single talent change could be all that is needed for each boss meaning each class has as many builds as there are raid bosses plus dungeons. Whcih is more than what we have now in terms of cookie cutters and that does mean more choice even if it is more cookie cutters. Being that there are so few talent i want to see them do some really cool stuff.
Wallert Oct 31st 2011 9:14PM
Regrettably I can't help but feel he's hit the nail on the head.
I've said it before and I'll say it again -the depressing about being a cynic, isn't being a cynic. It's being right so often.
Bellajtok Oct 31st 2011 9:18PM
If you want a cookie cutter build, there will always be one for you. But if you want to make your own decisions on talents, have fun with it, and be able to easily choose right with a little guidance and experience, this talent tree will finally let you do that. Until now, the trees have been highly mathematical, and having the right ones was required, which presented a barrier to everyone who wanted to really customize their character.
Boobah Oct 31st 2011 10:54PM
"What worries me is the end of this expansion when they roll out the new talent system before we hit 90. Shouldn't be too bad, but things like arms warriors losing bladestorm until 90, what about add phases in the dragon soul raid? This could, if only for a month or so, break some classes until mists is released."
The short version is: we don't have all the pieces yet. If Arms needs more non-cooldown AoE, then you can expect Arms to get it. Although from my experience (limited to five-mans, admittedly, as Arms) I won't particularly feel broken without it. Blood & Thunder, glyphed Cleave, and Sweeping Strikes? Yeah, I find that's enough. I wouldn't say no to something else to throw in there, of course.
Puntable Oct 31st 2011 11:14PM
Agree with Bellajtok. The choices will not be so complicated that anyone will need EJ to tell them which to take. Just read the talents. Of course someone will offer to tell you the "best talents" for anyone that likes to be led by the hand. I think they will try to design the talents so you can pick which one fits YOUR play style best. I hope they succeed.
WoWie Zowie Oct 31st 2011 11:56PM
don't get bummed just yet. remember, he also said that talents would be as easy to swap as glyphs are right now. could you spare 10g per raid boss to be optimal? doesn't seem like that much tbh. i mean you get the gold back and then some just for killing the guy. this won't be quite the "gold sink" that everyone hopes they will put into the game.
sharlatan Nov 1st 2011 6:21PM
And this is where Bliz messed it up. they thought simlifying it down to 3 talents at 6 game points was the way. When in actuality the only way to avoid cookie cutter specs is to offer vast amounts of choice. Lets face it, its easy to model the current system to work out the best spec, at worst there are now only 700 odd specs to choose from. And in reality there are a lot less for most classes as some talents just dont work with some roles.
Compare that to another game with 9 talent trees, you pick 3, where you can spend your points where you like, up to 51 points in a tree, with both talents you choose giving abilities and benefits and also based on the amount of points in a tree. Thats variety. Sure there are 'standard' specs, but there are an awflu lot more of them than will be the case of builds in MoP.
zEagleEye` Nov 1st 2011 12:35PM
@jfofla
Who says that hell is depressing? You may find it VERY interesting ... J/K
@Wallert
It's not the first time that Fox hits the head on the nail ...
Seriously - I don't see your problem as a cynic.
If you were right so often it depresses you?
Do you think that an optimist has it better, with his "reality" shuttered?
A pessimist is not a person who WANTS bad stuff - it's a person who is READY for it if it happens. Being a pessimist is not depressing - it almost makes you an optimist since you see how many worse things could have happened.
MAybe the problem is that you were not pessimistic enough ...
Sei Nov 2nd 2011 3:40AM
zEagleEye'
I don't see being eternally pessimistic as making you more or less prepared than an eternal optimist.
Something goes wrong:
Eternal Pessimist: I knew it! Uh oh, what bad thing can happen now to make this even worse?
Eternal Optimist: Oh well, didn't work out that time, but things can always get better.
Something goes right:
EP: Oh cool, things went well this time, but I need to be careful because now 'X' might happen.
EO: Awesome! Life is Great and there's always hope that it'll get better! How awesome is that?!
Neither one of those is more or less prepared for anything...the only difference in my opinion is the pessimist is more annoying when things do go wrong and the optimist is more annoying when things do go right : )
Camo Nov 2nd 2011 9:53AM
sharlatan: "the only way to avoid cookie cutter specs is to offer vast amounts of choice."
Sadly, it isn't. Everytime you have a choice that impacts the gameplay you'll have someone that points out the best choice, whether it is an overall best (today) or a situational best (MoP).
The only real way to remove cookie cutter builds is to remove the impact from those choices. "Do you want red or green flames?" is a useless choice and can never create a superior situation.
Callace Oct 31st 2011 8:08PM
There are still a few select talents that will be crucial to specific roles. However, I am unconvinced that the majority of talents will requisite a specific selection. Many of them seemed quite balanced, and as they said at Blizzcon, the numbers especially are far from final.
SmokeTheBear Oct 31st 2011 8:47PM
I agree. Not only do they seem to be in many cases fairly balanced, but many of them have less to do with appropriateness for specific encounters than with appropriateness for given *play styles*.
On top of that, people grinding out the tiniest fractional increase in performance for hard modes and server firsts might go through the effort of theorycrafting out exactly which talent is "optimal" for each fight by whatever minuscule percentage, but most people won't go through the effort. And what's more, not only is that fine, that's *ideal*. You could run a completely talentless build and perform perfectly well in all but the absolute most hardcore situations.
Will there be idiots who insist that everyone they raid with has whatever ElitistJerks says is the "right" talent build for their spec for every encounter? Of course, but they'll be fewer than the number of people who do the same thing right now. If I ever run into someone who complains at me because I picked Path of the Devout instead of Body and Soul, I will laugh in their face, and they'll end up on my ignore list.
Fortunately, I'm lucky enough to be in a guild and raid group that doesn't include people like that. We've got people who know what the best builds are right now, and they all agree that which talent someone has won't matter enough to get upset about when we have the new talent system.
Derrek Nov 2nd 2011 4:57PM
I might go so far as to add that the original intent of the talent system was to give players a way to customize their character and playstyle. Players don't currently have any real way to do that at endgame.
The new system addresses this issue by giving you choices that have a meaningful impact on your playstyle. It still needs balancing ( obviously ) but I think players will be much, much happier with the final, polished new talent system than they are with the current one. The advantages of the new system far outweigh the ( frankly groundless ) complaints that cookie-cutters will be more abundant than ever.
But think about it this way: When every boss has its own unique cookie-cutter build, can any build truly be called cookie-cutter anymore? Currently, everyone has a single talent build will work pretty much anywhere. Sure, you might have one for PvE and one for PvP, but do you ever, EVER have to swap a few points in a spec between boss fights or battlegrounds?
If suddenly you find yourself swapping all different tiers of talents for various different boss mechanics and battleground objectives, the problem of the cookie-cutter build will be solved.
vinettar Oct 31st 2011 8:08PM
Yeah, I stopped reading the moment you insulted your readers.
Hob Oct 31st 2011 8:16PM
You should hear what he calls us in the break room, when he thinks we aren't around.
Throngus Oct 31st 2011 8:17PM
That's a shame, because if you made it to the end of the article you would have found a well thought out conclusion weighing different factors in game design and ultimately coming out in favor of changes that offer more complexity to those who want it and less to those who do not.