Mists of Pandaria: The myth of the talent tree choice

To be fair, there are a lot of terrific ideas in what Blizzard is planning to do with our talent trees. Removed are the choices that everyone should make. And yes, Blizzard did say that in Cataclysm, but this time, the designers mean it. What shadow priest doesn't take Vampiric Touch? What balance druid doesn't invest that crucial talent point to take Moonkin Form?
But ultimately, if the goal here is to make things easier on the players, to make this a choice that players don't need to extensively research, Blizzard totally missed the mark.
During the BlizzCon 2011 Class Panel, Greg "Ghostcrawler" Street (lead systems designer) explained the new philosophy for the Mists of Pandaria talent system. The basic points are this:
- Blizzard wants you to be able to access new abilities and combinations that you never had before, like a shadow priest being able to cast the (now discipline priest spell) Power Infusion.
- Blizzard wants to move away from cookie-cutter trees. That means it wants to create a system where there is no wrong choice, where every talent is just as valid as the next.
But guess what? These new talent trees they introduced are absolutely counter to the intent of simplification. And as much as Ghostcrawler wants you to believe that there are no wrong answers, there always will be. Always.
The truth
No offense to those of you reading, but a large number of World of Warcraft players are lazy. They don't like hard choices. Or, more specifically: They like choices as hard as they're able to handle.
Players may not all be top-tier raiders, but even casual players aren't stupid. Each and every player is going to take a look at these new-for-Mists of Pandaria talents and instinctually know that there's a right choice and there's a wrong choice. No one wants to be that guy with the messed-up tree -- like it or not, we're all judged by other players based on those choices we make. No matter how long you've been playing, I guarantee you've heard someone belittle someone else over some in-game choice that they've made.
What's that, you say? There aren't going to be any right or wrong choices? Wrong, my friend. There are. Take a look at the level 75 priest talents, for instance:

It's far too early to theorycraft fights that don't yet exist (obviously), but as soon as Mists of Pandaria bosses hit the PTR for testing, you better bet that every Elitist Jerk in existence will be running the numbers, determining what talent is best for which fight.
In short, we didn't get rid of cookie-cutter talent trees. We simply created the need for far more cookie-cutter builds -- one per raid encounter. And maybe one for PVP. And another for heroics. And yet another for soloing.
Is this all a bad thing?
Look, it's easy to understand what Ghostcrawler and the rest are trying to do. Getting rid of easy choices is a slam dunk. But if they want you to believe that any talent or benefit that doesn't have a number can't be theorycrafted, they're wrong. It happens now. And it's going to happen when MoP launches. It's just that the theorycrafting that's going to happen will get much more complex than ever before.
You'll still have sites like Elitist Jerks, WoW Insider, and all sorts of other community sites (like shadowpriest.com) offering their opinions as to what builds are best -- it's what we do. There will be logic to back them up, some with raw math, others with computer simulations as is done now. Many of these suggestions will be made inside the margin of error with a healthy dose of guessing, but the suggestions will be there. Cookie cutters will exist. People will still judge you for your choices. It's a part of MMORPGs.
If you're a top raider, you'll be doing more research instead of less. But isn't that what a lot of you complainers want, anyway? More variables? Complexity that makes you feel more self-important?
And for the rest of you, whether you want to be called "casuals," "casual raiders," or just "normies," you'll have cookie cutters to fall back on. You can spend as much time researching fights as you want to perfect your build, even if that preferred amount of time is zero. Because when this new talent system launches, in many situations, even the experts will have no clue which talent is best. Theorycrafting isn't an exact science. It's educated guessing.
Ultimately, though Blizzard didn't accomplish its goal of removing cookie-cutter builds, you can't fault it -- that task is impossible. What Blizzard did do is create a whole new, better system, where hard choices have to be made ... choices centering around utility. It's a huge step in the right direction. If World of Warcraft is to have any talent system at all, it should be closer to the one we're getting than the one we have.
The news is out -- we'll be playing Mists of Pandaria! Find out what's in store with an all-new talent system, peek over our shoulder at our Pandaren hands-on, and get ready to battle your companion pets against others. It's all here right at WoW Insider!Filed under: Analysis / Opinion, BlizzCon, Mists of Pandaria
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Reader Comments (Page 5 of 9)
Amaxe Oct 31st 2011 9:04PM
Well, I feel vindicated, as this is more or less what I was saying since they announced it.
SleepySlug Oct 31st 2011 9:07PM
I think that the big thing that Blizz is really trying to do is try to diminish the idea of the "must-have" talent. It seems to me that with all the trees, even if you make a "wrong" choice, it shouldn't effect your overall performance by TOO much.
Would it be easier/more effective if you had taken talent X over talent Y for encounter Z? Sure.
Is it going to back you next to useless and seem a complete fool during a fight just for having made that decision?
No.
I feel that this is a very great improvement because I HAVE seen those off the wall Balance Druids w/o Moonkin form. These decisions are harder, but I feel they have a smaller footprint overall than current talents, and this is a good thing for raising up those on the bottom end of the performance spectrum without really pushing those on the top end even further ahead.
Blightwatr Oct 31st 2011 9:09PM
Sometimes I long for the days of classic EQ where you choose a class and that was that. No specialization nonsense. Even the original Alternative Advancement system in EQ was a different beast than what Blizzard did with specs.
In any case, I agree with some of comments here. I'd be for this same limited talent tree, but per spec. In other words, a separate tree for each spec, where the player is allowed "trivial" choices within that spec.
Tom Oct 31st 2011 9:17PM
Of course there will be optimal specs for various fights, but that doesn't have anything to do with cookie-cutter builds.
Cookie-cutter builds are one-size-fits-all builds, and one-size-fits-all builds are far less legitimate under the MoP system. There will be optimal builds for particular fights just like there are now, but those tweaked builds high-end raiders use for specific mechanics are by no means cookie-cutter builds. Also, it's probably a good thing that more people will be thinking about their specs on a fight-by-fight basis.
"What talents should my spec use on fight x?" will have an answer.
"I just started playing - how do I spec?" will not have an easy answer, but it'll also be far less harmful if someone makes an inappropriate choice.
They aren't the same question.
Lissanna Nov 1st 2011 10:29AM
Even for leveling, some choices make more sense than others. You want to choose things that will actually effect what you are doing at any point in time, and so there is always a right answer. I'll still make my druid leveling guide explaining what the novel-length druid talents do and make suggestions about what ones are better for leveling.
The point of the new talent system is to get rid of the old clunky one. So, even if the new system really isn't ever going to be about having equivalent choices for each spec in each situation, it's still an improvement.
Tom Nov 1st 2011 12:47PM
There certainly will be best choices for particular situations, and that's part of my point. My rebuttal of Fox's view is based on two things:
1. Cookie-cutter builds are one-size-fits-all builds, easy choices for all situations, not highly optimized builds for particular situations.
2. Cookie-cutter builds will be far less legitimate in MoP. It will be much easier to tailor your talents to exactly what you're doing, and less optimal choices won't break your character as they do now.
Ez Oct 31st 2011 9:24PM
I think i will feel more like there is a nail in both hands, both feet and my head when this expansion coms out O:o
Trev Oct 31st 2011 9:31PM
"Going up against Ragnaros? Then Twist of Fate is a poor choice -- the boss fight ends well before his health hits 0%. Power Infusion is probably better."
I had a higher hopes from you, Fox. You're better than this.
Are you aware that getting through Phase 3 on Ragnaros as fast as possible is literally the most important part of the encounter on Heroic? The longer you take, the more meteors you have to deal with in Phase 4. Doing additional damage sub 25% is HUGE for that fight. But I digress.
My point is that yes there will be talents that are better than others on a fight by fight basis. But honestly, do you really expect Blizzard to balance entire encounters on all DK's having 1 specific talent?
dj.clayden Oct 31st 2011 10:33PM
I am assuming he meant normal, if he was referring to heroic then yeah twisted faith would be by far the best choice of the 3.
blazenor Oct 31st 2011 9:32PM
I'm not going to research damn thing, I rather have fun trying to figure which talent fit my playstyle and go from there. As long as the talents are all useful the difference between builds should not be huge to the point where you 100% need this build over that build.
GabeCo Oct 31st 2011 9:35PM
Yes, there always will be the best talents, and theres nothing you can do about it. However though, a lot of them are which is best for YOU.
Take the druids for example:
Feral King of the Jungle: is see a great DPS boost here, but at the cost of great complexion. If you have trouble with your feral DPS rotation now, id go with the treants.
Hunters: for the level 15 one, if your starved on focus, take the focus boosting one. however, if your not, go ahead and take the dot.
or, if your on an arena team with great heals, take the free deterrence Disengage, or if your having HP troubles, take the heal.
lvl 75, if your rotation leaves more room for extra shots, you might want Thrill of the hunt. if not, readiness may be the choice for you.
maybe you need infinite ice traps, or your good enough to transmorph trap someone, then right before they get out, you can scare beast.
A lot of these talents can differ on your play style.
glen Oct 31st 2011 9:37PM
The problem with talent trees is that it's impossible to simultaneously give meaningful choice and also attain perfect balance. WoW is just a complicated numbers game, and any kind of meaningful choice is eventually going to be skewed one way or another. This isn't a problem in and of itself.
The big problem is that the game is balanced around the idea that you'll always be optimal. This is where Cata has failed majorly - rather than being able to set yourself up in a way that seems fun, encounters are designed around the idea that everyone is doing it with their optimal spec, reforges, and glyphs. I don't think a party of Warriors in spell-power cloth should be successful, but the pendulum has swung too far in the other direction. If you're not doing it exactly how Elitist Jerks does it, you're doing it wrong and hugely hampering the rest of your group. Choices are fun, and one right way to do things essentially means no choices.
tommyobeso Oct 31st 2011 9:38PM
We should really be able to vote up or down these articles, and not just the comments. This is an editorial, so of course you're free to say whatever you want. You should know, however, that their primary intent (as mentioned at Blizzcon) with this change is reduce talents that are just based on stats, reduce the ability for people to complete skip utterly important talent choices, and to make balancing much much easier.
themightysven Oct 31st 2011 9:40PM
Signed.
on a side note, given how much of raiding boils down to precision dancing with explosions, I have a feeling that by the end of MoP raid calculus will not only have the standard raider in cookie cutter specs, but they'll have cookie cutter comps, because if there's a talent that's useful for that boss that only one class has then "bring the player not the class" goes out the window.
dj.clayden Oct 31st 2011 10:35PM
Having spent quite a bit of time on raggy HC, I'd argue raid composition *is* pretty important right now.
Chance Oct 31st 2011 9:43PM
You should have named this article Myths of Pandaria: Talents.
Just sayin.
brain314 Oct 31st 2011 9:55PM
Pandaria's Got Talent
Oomu Oct 31st 2011 9:52PM
I hope with all the burning hate of death wing you will be wrong and blizzard will force you to stop min-max the game.
You are the anti-fun, you are the reason why difficult raids should be banished of the game.
TonyKP Nov 1st 2011 8:59AM
Dude, seriously, go have a beer or something.
Lissanna Nov 1st 2011 10:25AM
Having cookie-cutter talent specs is (in the end) perfectly fine and reasonable. It's something about WoW's culture that would be really hard to break after 6 years. Every time Blizzard tries to introduce "choice" we still theorycraft ourselves out of that choice.
It doesn't mean the new talent system is bad, it just means that Blizzard can't stop our culture from continuing to do what we've always done.
It just means that the word "choice" shouldn't be what the new talents are balanced around. Instead, they should be balanced around being effective and having fun. Focusing on both of these are better than "choice" because if you are effective and having fun, it doesn't matter that you got to spend 5 minutes a month ago picking your talents.