Encrypted Text: Hot rogue news from the developer Q&A

I went all the way to BlizzCon this year, stood in line to ask the developers about rogue utility in person, and didn't really get an answer that anyone was satisfied with. Rogue utility came from our stuns, which every melee class now has in spades. I hung my head and accepted that rogues were going to suffer through another expansion without any improvements. I had been hoping that Ghostcrawler, WoW's lead systems developer, would have more news to share.
But then, at first light on the fifth day after BlizzCon, Ghostcrawler appeared atop the hill on his brilliant crab Shadowfax. His white robes shone brilliantly in the bright dawn, and his nerf bat was raised high over his head. With him rode 1,000 answers, ready to rush down the hill to trample our questions, which were rallying in the valley below. As he parted his lips, a beautiful song poured forth: "We are reworking poisons."
Utility poisons will provide utility
Here's the full quote from Ghostcrawler:
We are reworking poisons. For starters, rogue damage is balanced around the expectation of two damage poisons, which makes it really brutal to use a utility poision instead. In MoP, you will have one damage poison and one utility poison so you can choose which utility poison to use (and not IF you want a utility poison). We also want to reduce the amount of ramping that rogue DPS requires, such as removing the need for Deadly Poison to stack.
Why couldn't they just tell me this when I asked? I know this is going to seem strange to all of the veteran rogues in the audience, but we're actually going to get the opportunity to use a utility poison in a raid environment. We are currently forced to choose between a damaging poison or a utility poison, and since Instant and Deadly Poisons make up such a huge chunk of our DPS, there's really no choice. Assassination rogues are worthless without both DPS poisons active. The Wrath-revamped Deadly Poison is simply too good, and its mechanics make Instant Poison mandatory as well.
In my mind, Blizzard is going to remove the damage component from Wound Poison, and we're going to be left with two DPS poisons. Instant Poison will be used for PVP and when we need to deal damage immediately (perhaps with an improved proc rate), and Deadly Poison will be used for raid encounters and any protracted engagement. We choose between either Instant or Deadly Poisons based on the situation we're facing.
On our other weapon, we get to pick one of our utility poisons. Since there's no DPS penalty, we can really go crazy here. I am seriously saying that you are going to get the chance to use Mind-Numbing Poison in a raid. How awesome is that? We have all of these unique poison types, and now we get to actually use them. This announcement changes everything we know about poisons.
New poisons now make sense
When we got to peek at the upcoming Mists of Pandaria talent trees, there were two new poisons on the list. Their descriptions in the talent tree didn't show any damage components, and so of course they were immediately relegated to niche or PVP usage.
Leeching Poison heals us for 10% of our damage dealt against poisoned targets, while Paralytic Poison stacks on our target and stuns them when we hit five stacks. The ability to stun adds for free or to heal ourselves without any penalty will be two new additions to our arsenal. In fact, between Recuperate and Leeching Poisons, I bet rogues are going to be downright annoying to kill and a breeze to heal.
More poison changes?
If Blizzard is going to such great lengths to redesign rogue poisons, what other changes could be coming to the system? Aldriana envisioned our DPS poisons moving to a more runeforge-like system where they're semi-permanent weapon enchants, while our utility poisons become temporary abilities that we can pick for the occasion. I've also seen it suggested that our poisons should be switched to short-term enchants, allowing us to swap between them on the fly.
Are poisons going to even require actual poison any more, or will we finally reclaim some bag space? If poisons are still items, then how will Leeching Poison and Paralytic Poison work? Will those poisons only appear on the vendor if we have the talent? What happens to any leftover Leeching Poison in our bags if we spec out of the talent? Poisons moving from an item to an ability makes sense, as Blizzard is working to streamline the game. What other poison changes would you like to see?
Filed under: Rogue, (Rogue) Encrypted Text






Reader Comments (Page 1 of 2)
Cbeefman Nov 2nd 2011 4:11PM
i think they should just make them work the same as shaman weapon enchants except that they should preserve the manual "targeting" element
at the same time adding that to the shaman enchants (right now shammies have to cast their enchants in the exact order for each weapon which i find silly)
vocenoctum Nov 2nd 2011 4:54PM
I'd be fine with making them like shaman enhancements, but I'd prefer damage ones to simply be "main hand" and utility ones be "offhand", so if you want to replace, you just click and no need to select, but also no need to do in order.
(which by the way, I never saw explained anywhere for shamans. When my shaman finally got dual-spec during leveling in wrath, I actually would manually swap the weapons back and forth until a buddy heard me complaining and told me how it works...)
Make it in a flop out menu like demon summoning perhaps.
I'd also like: Instant, DoT, 1/2 Instant + 1/2 DoT, or thereabouts, but maybe they'll tie more to spec.
bldavis59 Nov 3rd 2011 2:45AM
afaik i can do flametongue first and then windfury by right-then-left clicking the spells
it also works this way for rogues (at least if you use poisoner)
Edymnion Nov 2nd 2011 4:14PM
Being able to bring some raid utility through poisons would be an excellent fix, IMO.
Perhaps we could end up like BM hunters, where the various hunter pets can bring any raid buffs that might be needed, Rogue poisons could bring any target debuffs we needed. We already have increases to physical damage (well, for combat rogues anyway), now we can actually use the cast time increase, what else could we bring? A tank friendly debuff that lowers physical damage dealt by the target? That alone would skyrocket us into must have members of any raid.
Revynn Nov 2nd 2011 4:46PM
- "A tank friendly debuff that lowers physical damage dealt by the target? That alone would skyrocket us into must have members of any raid."
Curse of Weakness says hi.
. . . From my spellbook where it's been since before Wrath. The -Physical damage debuff is provided by every tanking spec. They're also getting rid of a couple more "standard raid buffs" again in MoP and I wouldn't be surprised if Demo Roar/Shout was on the chopping block.
teejmorrison Nov 2nd 2011 4:48PM
I love your Physical DMG suggestion, I hope the Devs expand on their initial idea.
Killik Nov 2nd 2011 7:27PM
Demo Shout and its physical damage ilk appear to be on the way out, as the Druid version has been converted to an aoe disorientate in the MoP talent trees.
Couvs Nov 2nd 2011 4:17PM
Currently, for Assassination Rogues like myself, one of the big damage boosters is extra Instant Poison damage when we have envenom up. Since envenom has thus far required deadly poison to be an active damaging debuff on a target, I can't help but wonder how much of a benefit the Envenom buff will remain if we're having to choose only one damage poison. Aside to perhaps increasing the poison damage bonus to compensate for only having one damage poison, do you have any other theories as to how this could work, Chase?
btw it was great to see you on the Q&A panel at BlizzCon again this year as I streamed it from home :) I just wish they'd given you this answer when you asked it there
Narlic Nov 2nd 2011 4:24PM
I would expect that if they are changing poisons, that every single ability that mentions or uses poisons will have to be changed... hopefully in a manner that doesn't nerf it to hell!
SleepySlug Nov 2nd 2011 5:08PM
There's an easy way to fix that: change DP so that instead of proccing your OTHER poison when it's fully stacked to just deal a dmg equivalent w/o taking the other poison into account.
Now, I don't feel like this is going to be how Blizz will approach the issue specifically, I'm just giving an example of how problems like that can be pretty easily solved.
Narlic Nov 2nd 2011 5:35PM
@SleepySlug basically doing what Censure does, right? I think that is a perfectly sensible option.
Boobah Nov 2nd 2011 5:37PM
Well, that's how the Paladin stacking DoT debuff works. First five procs of Seal of Truth stack Censure, and subsequent procs refresh the DoT and do damage.
Mullane Nov 2nd 2011 4:18PM
I'm betting on weapon enchants, like the Shaman.
Camo Nov 2nd 2011 4:18PM
I think they might bake instant poison into deadly as proccing the other weapon poison wouldn't be so ideal.
So it would be stacking DP and proccing IP + utility poison.
Damage poison would be on OH if they don't normalize while revamping.
Clockw0rk Nov 2nd 2011 4:18PM
I'm excited about poisons as an ability or a sort of on-the-fly runeforge that doesn't have to be reapplied every hour.
Honestly, they've gotten rid of almost all the other reagents. Once they nix the last handful for rogues and battle rez, things will be a lot smoother. Why do we bother with the stack of stuff in our bags that we have to pay a gold to replenish from only certain vendors? It's silly.
Luke Nov 2nd 2011 4:19PM
Okay, I'll bite, could you explain what you mean by utility? Because when I think of Rogues I think of the class with the most utility. So I'm guessing we're talking different things here.
Luke Nov 2nd 2011 4:23PM
Excepting mages of course, but as far as melee goes yes.
The Dewd Nov 2nd 2011 4:26PM
Utility, in this sense, means what you bring other than you base role abilities. For Rogues, utility has always been sap, stuns, and dps. That sounds good until you realize that other classes than can CC and/or stun have other abilities. Cat druids can pop out and cast heals or switch to bear and tank (at least right now). Mages, shaman, and BM Hunters have things like timewarp, warlocks and DKs have a battle-rez, hunters can kite with ease, the list goes on. Rogues want to know that they are useful enough to warrant playtime when another class that can do the same dps can provide so much more. (For what it's worth, my rogue is a largely unplayed alt and we haven't had a rogue main in our raid - regularly - since early Wrath or late BC so forgive me if I've missed a few things.)
Revynn Nov 2nd 2011 5:57PM
Biuncing off your post below:
DPS is a base role ability. I think he just misspoke when he listed it as utility.
Sure, stuff like Sap is great to have, but what makes it stand out from Repentance, Polymorph, Hibernate, or Freezing Trap? Also, how many times have you sapped something in FL?
Stuns are cool and useful, but how is Kidney Shot better than Throwdown, Charge, Shockwave (AoE), Shadowfury (AoE), Maim, Bash, HoJ, Axe Toss, etc.? Sure, KS lasts longer, but it also requires a full stack of CP for max effectiveness and rather than giving up a single GCD like other classes, you're sacrificing a significant amount of time, Energy and CP that could otherwise be spent on a high-damage finisher.
Utility: Assuming all players and specs are bringing the same DPS, it's an ability that makes you special and valuable to a raid, therefore worth taking over someone else. If a Demo Warlock does the same single target DPS as you, but has better AoE, better passive survivability (assuming you arent Sub) can B-Rez and can provide Healthstones and summoning stones, can stun and slow adds, brings Curse of Elements or Curse of Tongues, the 10% Spell Power Buff . . . Then why bring a Rogue?
Luke Nov 2nd 2011 6:51PM
Okay so utility in this sense is combat abilities that aren't damage dealing abilities? Or the damage component at least is not the reason that particular ability is used. Just wanted to be clear because I've seen utility used in a variety of ways by different people.