Shifting Perspectives: Eclipse, AOE, and energy gains

Last week, we talked about the oncoming change to the talent system and what the previewed talents mean for balance druids. Understanding that everything we see now is very much in the pre-alpha stages and bound to change, talents are still but one aspect of the class that is going to need to see some changes in the next expansion. As we all know by now, Eclipse too needs to change. I'm sure that this is one topic that people are about tired of talking or hearing about, but it's simply unavoidable. Eclipse is the core of our DPS; it is everything to us. If it fails, we fail, pure and simple.
Unlike the past, we won't particularly be discussing the same old boring flaws that we have with Eclipse today. Many of those are known factors, and we already know that Blizzard is looking at addressing them. Instead, we'll be discussing some of the things that balance druids have known for a long time that Blizzard has not, as of yet, mentioned. We'll also be looking into the way in which the system does need to change in order to survive into the next expansion.
Talents and Eclipse
On Wednesday, druid blogger Lissanna asked me a rather interesting question on Twitter. She asked whether I thought that with the addition of an arcane version of Hurricane, more (if not all) of our spells should generate Eclipse energy. This question holds some merit, particularly because it is something that we saw Blizzard attempt to enforce with the change to Lunar Shower. Now that traditional talents are out the window, utility talents such as Lunar Shower might potentially be forced onto us.
All of the talents that we know of now cannot simply disappear. Many of them are far too important to the spec's ability to sustain DPS in order for this to work. While there is some leeway with things such as Starlight Wrath -- although it would hurt to lose it -- other talents such as Euphoria cannot be written off so easily. Balance druids need a way to sustain their mana regeneration; without that talent, we simply have nothing. Baking Euphoria or Dreamstate into our specializations or giving them to us as passive skills at certain levels, as was shown with Titan's Grip and Single Minded Fury for warriors, is certainly the logical step that Blizzard would take with similar, spec-dependent talents.
One thing that is currently lacking from balance druids is the ability to deal any form of damage while moving. Mages and warlocks both have movement DPS talents. Shaman, so far as we know, still have their glyph to allow Lightning Bolt to be cast while moving. Balance has nothing right now. This could mean that Lunar Shower or some other new form of movement DPS is baked into our standard ability list. Given than most druids don't take the talent as it stands now, this could be problematic.
Why Elipse generation doesn't work
There's a good reason why skipping the current Lunar Shower is so prevalent within the community. While it can be a great talent in an extremely high-movement situation, forcing Moonfire to generate Eclipse energy when we don't always want it to holds many negative aspects. In many situations where you want to cast Moonfire multiple times, it would result in a DPS loss for it to move our Eclipse meter -- I am, of course, speaking of AOE rotations.
Our current AOE format is a mixture of Wild Mushrooms, with DOTs being used between the cooldown. Right now, leaving a Solar Eclipse would result in our AOE abilities being horridly crippled. In Solar, we have some of the best (if not the best) AOE in the game; outside of Eclipse, we have some of the worst AOE in the game. Recognizing this flaw, Blizzard has already promised that we'll be seeing an increase to our ability to AOE in Lunar -- yet that is only half the battle.
Any damage that we deal outside of Eclipse, right now, is peanuts compared to what we can do inside of it. The problem has grown so bad that we actively avoid using Moonfire to overwrite Sunfire in many situations because it would result in a loss of DPS. This is something that needs to be fixed. Add in a Lunar AOE options will fix mask the problem, but it doesn't actually fix the underlying issue. Eclipse is simply too large of a damage contribution.
Problems with AOE abilities
Should more of our abilities generate Eclipse energy? The short answer: no. In the most ideal situation, yes, it would be wonderful for all of our abilities that benefit from Eclipse to move the bar in some manner or another, but this just doesn't work in a practical setting. To start, this would fix the issue that we currently have where players game Eclipse. All it would do is change the way in which the game is played.
Say, for example, that Hurricane now generates 20 Eclipse energy every time that you use it. When an AOE phase is coming up, you would clearly want to be inside of either Eclipse proc in order to get the highest amount of AOE damage; therefore, instead of doing what we do now and off-cast at the end of an Eclipse proc, you would merely never leave the start of an Eclipse proc. Should you accidentally leave Eclipse, standing around and casting an unEclipsed Hurricane would be a waste of time. Instead, you would merely spam Hurricane over and over again until you push yourself to the next Eclipse proc, and then properly AOE. That would be a horrible system.
Further, allowing our AOE to generate Eclipse energy would cause another form of abuse: gaining Eclipse outside of combat. We already have something of an issue with this now where players will abuse the presence of critters in order to build Eclipse prior to a boss fight, a situation which Blizzard is none too thrilled with. Neither Hurricane nor Wild Mushroom require targets in order to use, so it could be possible to generate Eclipse without having to actively be in combat.
It could be possible that Blizzard would implement a system where these abilities have to deal damage to a target in order to generate energy, but since each of them hits multiple targets, it would be rather awkward. To keep things simple, our standard AOE abilities cannot generate Eclipse energy.
What needs to change
How we generate Eclipse is certainly a part of the process that needs to be looked at. Both Blizzard and the players certainly aren't happy with the current system. The flaw, however, is that any changes would upset the delicate balance that we have achieved. While it might be possible to work in Eclipse generation with out DOTs, traditional AOE is certainly out of the question. That's all right, though, and probably for the best.
AOE, however, is only a portion of the problem and really only works to show the great issue at play. Our damage outside of Eclipse is simply too weak -- or you could say that Eclipse is too strong. I've been saying this ever since Cataclysm beta; now, finally, much of the community is starting to come around. Hopefully, this time, Blizzard will realize the mistake and work to fix this problem before it grows out of hand in the next expansion.
Filed under: Druid, (Druid) Shifting Perspectives






Reader Comments (Page 1 of 2)
Crispn Nov 4th 2011 5:08PM
I've long past the point where I've lost faith in successful implementation of the eclipse system, and just decided to roll with it...
Matthew Nov 4th 2011 5:47PM
You and the developers both! ;D
Welldead Nov 4th 2011 5:12PM
I am having a difficult time pulling 15-16k dps on firelands where i should be pulling that, instead i pull between13-15 and i want to do more damage cause i need it for ragnaros and idk what is wrong with my set or reforging but im almost full 378's only missing about 2-3 pieces and thats it, perhaps you can help me on what the heck is going wrong and help me burst more damage?
Sincerely,
A Sadly Boomkin. US Forestland :/
Gritiron Nov 4th 2011 5:54PM
@Welldead to increase your boomkin dps you need to concentrate on managing eclipse uptime and minimizing movement, which for me takes three things, in rough order of importance:
(a) Eclipse timing: most sites say be in solar for AOE, but the trick really is working out how to do that for each fight. Your first choice of nuke will determine your eclipse rotation for the entire fight. So test both directions out and find out which one lines up best with AOE situations. You HAVE to be in solar for them, even if it means casting the wrong nuke to stay there.
(b) Knowledge of the fight and where you need to be, our movement sucks, if you have to move suddenly your dps plummets but you have a window everytime you refresh dots to move a few steps in the right direction. Get used to planning where you will be as far in advance as possible. Also cat shift and use stampeding roar or dash if you have to move far. (this I think has the largest effect, downtime or uncertainty moving differentiates low DPS players from high DPS players)
(c) DOT Timers: find and config a good DOT timer to track your DOTs, I recommend TidyPlates for multi-target and there are a million ones for single target ( i like HUDs so I use IceHUD). For AOE plant shrooms, Sunfire everything, shrooms, Insect Swarm everything, shrooms, maintain Sunfire since with TidyPlates you can see which ones are about to fall off.
In almost full 378s these tactics should get you to 20k easily.
Barkin - US Twisting Nether
lassehfs Nov 4th 2011 11:14PM
4 set bonus is a major boost.. stupid bar.. never played a game that had such a silly thing before and proberly never will >.< read below!!
Vitos Nov 4th 2011 5:21PM
To preface, I'm not a boomkin.
But what if boomkin didn't have mana, and instead when they went all fuzzy and feathery got a unique resource system that kinda acts like Runic Power, except there are two ends to it- Solar and Lunar, not 0 and 100. So, make eclipse your power source and just toss mana out the window. It would be interesting (I think, maybe, maybe not). Not entirely sure how it would work, and I'm not sure how it would fix the problems right now, but who knows...
Matthew Nov 4th 2011 5:48PM
I'd like to hear Tyler's response to this.
(this of course, would be weird for pvp)
Lissanna Nov 4th 2011 6:13PM
You would still need mana, but they could change Eclipse to be a different kind of resource instead of the slider-bar that we have now. Unfortunately, I believe most of us have given into the fact that Eclipse will always be clunky.
durandal Nov 5th 2011 2:45AM
Blizz seems to like the idea of having a primary resource (like mana) and a seconday resource (combat points for rogues, runes for dks), so they're plan to extend this system to with light/dark orbs for monks and shadow orbs for spriests. This mechanic would even make sense for a boomkin: Having mana as a primary resource, solar and lunar energy would become two secondary resources. Here's what monks could teach us:
For example, Starfire would be used to build up lunar energy orbs, using Wrath would generate solar energy orbs. The accumulated energy would then be used to empower special attacks, like hurricane (lunar) or mushrooms (solar) for AOE, or Starsurge for single targets. Other spells could be integrated into this system.
This way, we'd get rid of the darn eclipse bar, but we'd still play with solar and lunar energy to justify we're called balance druids.
Arrohon Nov 4th 2011 5:34PM
Blizzard might upset Balance's balance? Oh dear, I think we might have a problem.
ThorCow Nov 4th 2011 5:36PM
I think part of the problem is the binary nature of eclipse -- it's either a ton of extra dmg or no extra dmg. If the extra dmg scaled dynamically with current lunar/solar energy, it would be less punishing. IE, 100 lunar energy gives your arcane spells 100% of the extra dmg from mastery; 50 lunar energy provides 50% of the extra dmg from mastery. The game would then be to cast the off-spell just enough to keep your energy high for the on-spell nuke.
If implemented like this, theorycrafters would quickly determine which side of the energy bar to stay on and the other side would be ignored. Not too compelling. To combat this, make Starfall single-target, remove Sunfire, and make sure Moonfire is slightly more powerful than Insect Swarm. Hurricane, Mushrooms, and Typhoon still do nature dmg. This would mean that the preferred side for single-target dps is Lunar, and the preferred side for AoE is Solar.
If a Starfire provided 25 - 35 solar energy and a Wrath provided 15 - 20 lunar energy, transitions from one eclipse to another could be pretty quick when an AoE phase was anticipated. If there was frequent need to AoE, a solar-side rotation would still be good, with the AoE capacities very good.
Yes, it would still be a game to balance your on-spell nuke with the off-spell energy recharge, but that's a more compelling game than the current binary version.
Matthew Nov 4th 2011 5:45PM
Thats a very cool picture.
Lissanna Nov 4th 2011 6:18PM
Also, if Blizzard number-squashes us back down to a more reasonable DPS range (with say the max DPS in pandaria being 10K instead of 100K if they don't squash), they will probably have to Squash the DPS difference between Eclipse-up and Eclipse-down in a way that will be really beneficial, too. The stat-inflation with mastery and DPS ranges being so high right now makes the problem worse.
Welldead Nov 4th 2011 6:40PM
Wooow, did not know about that stuff. Thank you soo much!! i will post you one of these days and tell you if my dps improved! Thanks once more
Kendro Nov 4th 2011 8:31PM
The only Eclipse system that will ever come close to be half functional with the switching back and forth design intention the Blizz Dev's wish to see out of Balance druids is the system where there is no "out of eclipse" state. You are always in eclipse, it is just a matter of if you are in solar or lunar. The damage boost from eclipse gets obviously scaled back drastically and ya. Sadly, for some reason that concepts seems so foreign and absurd to the devs that they just won't even sit down and even try it.
Snuzzle Nov 4th 2011 8:51PM
Honestly, and I know this will sound like blasphemy to some, I think they ought to just do away with Eclipse all together. It's a cool mechanic, the flavor is nice, and it's doing its job at making Boomkins cast more than one spell and making the "rotation" complex... but I feel it's too complex, and far too punishing if you don't know how to game the system properly.
Having to stand there and off cast at times is counter-intuitive. Being out of Eclipse at the wrong times is too punishing and really there isn't a way I can see to fix it without making the mechanic bland. If you do almost the same damage in Eclipse as out, who cares about Eclipse? If you don't, we have this mess.
What might actually work is if the devs take a leaf out of Arcane mage's book, and use the idea of "power ups". Casting nature spells buffs your arcane spells and vice versa, with some unique mechanic to make us want to choose when we switch (maybe too many stacks gives us an increased cast time or something.) It isn't unheard of for druids; a Resto's mastery, Harmony, buffs their hots when they direct heal.
In the end, my Balance druid isn't fun to play without feeling like I'm playing backwards or sometimes my damage stinks and I don't even know why. Eclipse needs a major change for Balance to feel fun again, imho.
lassehfs Nov 4th 2011 10:53PM
remove the damn bar!
joined a guild of friends and asked them what they needed. moonkin >.< i knew it would be a pain and told them you have to accept that i suck. being a former shadow shadow priest making that god forsaken thing work was damned hard but it started to work kinda (first 4 set bonus in guild cus i made a really good point out it) and then it started to work kinda probberly but hey, you always need more haste and are still unable to move and damage at the same time. grrr... it just has to go.... really far away and never ever comming back!!!
i'm rerolling in MoP if not, might have to soomer cus if i lost my 4 set bonus i would be screwed >.<
if you skipped the above. here is the sum up
Rawr.. Grrrrr.. gimme tools that work!!!!
lassehfs Nov 4th 2011 10:58PM
25k on bal and friken 16k on raggy thats just not right when a priest just holds it steady.... yeah yeah i have a knock back but still..... grrrr.... rawr... argh!!!
lassehfs Nov 4th 2011 11:06PM
it gets even worse on ptr when have to learn new dances, so much micro management. -.-
my wife is trying to ignore my swearing but it's just getting abit to obvious during raids lol
how did you guys put up with that damned bar in the prev tier?
Chance Nov 5th 2011 12:13AM
I haven't raided as a boomkin much since wrath, was kitty dps for the first part of the xpac and got bumped into tanking on the runs where I bring my druid. One of my groups recently fell apart, and I decided to move my pally over to play the tanking game this week when I usually bear tank and got to play Boomkin on an alt run. With no set bonus (I was wearing a mix of resto set pieces and offset gear that I got by default because the resto druid didn't need them) I was pulling pretty decent dps. 24k single target, though not at the top of the charts, I would not consider it bad, especially considering my item level was only 362.
How did I achieve this? Well after doing only 18k dps on shannox when trying to play the eclipse game I decided to say screw it and just played my rotation. I did of coarse still pay attention to my eclipse bar and recast sunfire/moonfire when getting into the eclipse state, but I completely ignored the "wait 3 more casts before refreshing dots cause I will be in a solar eclipse" game. I refreshed my dots as they were expiring and as soon as the eclipse hit I clipped them and recast them again. I also didn't worry about being in the propper eclipse state to use my starfall, nor did I wait for an eclipse to use my trinkets. I popped everything on cooldown during every fight and wound up doing just fine.
The theorycrafting and simcharts may put the whole waiting game ahead on the charts, and if you're doing good dps while doing this I'm by no means saying you should stop, but to encourage the average player to do this is a bad idea. Its a complicated game and more often than not people will make a mistake while playing the eclipse game and wind up being below average on the charts when they could be doing just fine by simply switching their filler spell appropriately for the eclipse they are currently in which is far simpler.
As for AoE, I don't see why eclipse matters... during Beth I solod the spiderlings, and during Rhyloth was getting yelled at for taking all the AoE away from the lock from the fragment spawns and I wasn't in an eclipse state until the burn phase for either fight. Would I have pulled bigger numbers if I played the bar? Possibly, but I would have also been focusing on my bar and slower to react to add spawns and ill take a few thousand less damage over spiderlings making it to the drone because I'm trying to beef the meters any day of the week.