Ready Check: Looking at raid accessibility
Ready Check helps you prepare yourself and your raid for the bosses that simply require killing. Check back with Ready Check each week for the latest pointers on killing adds, not standing in fire, and hoping for loot that won't drop. Questions, comments, or something you would like to see? Email me at tyler@wowinsider or message me on Twitter @murmursofadruid.
Last week, we brushed upon the topic of what the next expansion might hold for raiding. Specifically, the talk centered around the concept that raiding cannot be Blizzard's sole focus any more. As much effort as has been put into raiding, not every player is capable of getting involved with it. The argument was that Blizzard needed to focus on other content for max-level players aside from raiding and questioned what impact that would have on raiding overall.
First, at little bit of information. The blog Player vs. Auction House went off the norm and provided a little bit of numbers gleamed from WowProgress about T11 raiding before 4.2. While there is some interesting data as it relates to last week's topic, that isn't the focus I want to bring up. An argument was put forth that Cataclysm raiding is less accessible today than it previously was. I feel this is a great topic to delve right into this week.
Looking back to classic raiding
First things being first, let us look at the argument being put forth. The assertion is that although the numerical difficulty of raid encounters has decreased -- the DPS and healing requirements being easier now than they were in the past -- the mechanical difficulty of these encounters has increased. Because even the most basic raid encounters have a higher mechanical difficulty than previous bosses, this sets the bar extraordinarily high for new raiders. In past raids, players were capable of making far more mistakes; also, there were fewer mistakes to be made, and these mistakes were not as costly to the raid as a whole.
It's quite a bit to take in all at once, and sadly, there isn't a simpler way of bringing it up. We'll break it all down in parts and address each issue separately to compensate. To begin, we have to look at the foundation of the argument, that today's raid encounters are more mechanically complex than past raid encounters. Depending on how you look at things, your view on the matter could be relatively skewed one way or another.
Comparing any current encounter to one found in the original Molten Core is a pure disservice to this discussion. I don't mean that in the sense that it is rude; it is more that one must consider the limitations of the time. Players had far fewer tools, both via in-game skills and now common addons. Blizzard had far more technical limitations and was inexperienced in raid design. A large factor in the difficulty of the original Molten Core (and all of vanilla raiding) was more the massive amounts of farming involved to get the gear and items required to stand a chance at the encounters, more than the mechanics of the encounters themselves.
This is not to say that Blizzard did not create brilliantly complex encounters during classic. Indeed, once they had the experience of Molten Core and Blackwing Lair under their belt, the design team churned out a wide variety of highly complex encounters: C'thun, Skeram, Rajaxx, the original Venoxis, and then a vast number of encounter in Naxx. What is important to note is that Naxx was reused as the first raiding content of Wrath, and many of those encounters still stood the test of time.
The Karazhan complex
A popular comparison for this theory is to look at either the encounters or numbers from Karazhan and use those as a comparison tool against what we have seen thus far in Cataclysm. This is a rather flawed view, as the data provided by Karazhan does not provide a full picture. Karazhan was Blizzard's most successful attempt at making raiding more open to a broader playerbase, but it was never intended to have the ramifications that it did. Blizzard understood the accessibility problem long before The Burning Crusade. This is why it created Zul'Gurub and the Ruins of Ahn'Qiraj, the first attempts at getting more players involved in raiding.
Karazhan, however, was unique in many ways. By many standards, it is a widely popular instance, but one thing that players fail to realize is that Karazhan didn't fulfill the purpose that it had. Karazhan was meant to be an introduction into raiding, a springboard for players to take a leap off of into the rest of what there was to offer. Yet very few players actually managed to do this. If you were to compare the numbers of players who cleared all of Karazhan and then moved on to actually clear Gruul's Lair and Magtheridon, it would be significantly lower than the population of players who raid today. Many players never progressed beyond Karazhan, and fewer still were the players who continued what progression they did make. As you moved from Gruul's on to SSC, then TK and from there, Hyjal on to Black Temple, you saw a pattern of fewer and fewer players who managed to complete these raid instances.
While a large portion of this is attributed to the increasing difficulty of these encounters, part of that was also due to the raid structuring of the time. Nowadays (and even back in Wrath), raids are designed to become outdated as each successive raid is released. Back in vanilla and The Burning Crusade, you had to gear through each raid in order. A raiding guild could carry you through higher content, but a fresh group of players would have to raid starting all the way at Karazhan and move its way up. Now, you can gear primarily though 5-man content in order to be prepared to enter the highest tier of raiding.
Spanning into Cataclysm
The data isn't yet there to support Cataclysm raiding, and even once Dragon Soul is released, we still won't have an entirely accurate view. Blizzard has taken many great strides to reduce the difficulty of raiding content while still attempting to keep it challenging and engaging, especially for hardcore players. With the past nerfs made to Firelands in order to open the content up even further, the data that we could glean now would be vastly skewed in favor of the most recent content -- yet that in and of itself is half the point.
Raids have been more mechanically difficult than was in the past. This is absolutely true. While the problem is as great as one might think, it is the inevitable nature of the game. Players gain more abilities, more sophisticated addons are created, and the newest content has to reflect this. Yet despite it all, none of the mechanics that we see are anything that surprisingly new.
Alysrazor tornadoes? Heigan dancing. Omnotron? How many council-style fights have we had so far? One in Ulduar, Black Temple, Gruul's Lair, Naxx ... and that's just off the top of my head. Debuff juggling, add catching, AOEing, teleporting, no healing! We've run the gamut of what this game can throw at us. Encounters might be getting more complex, but players have the tools to deal with them. Complexity does not directly correlate to difficulty.
Ready Check shares all the strategies and inside information you need to take your raiding to the next level. Be sure to look up our strategy guides to Cataclysm's 5-man instances, and for more healer-centric advice, visit Raid Rx.
Last week, we brushed upon the topic of what the next expansion might hold for raiding. Specifically, the talk centered around the concept that raiding cannot be Blizzard's sole focus any more. As much effort as has been put into raiding, not every player is capable of getting involved with it. The argument was that Blizzard needed to focus on other content for max-level players aside from raiding and questioned what impact that would have on raiding overall.
First, at little bit of information. The blog Player vs. Auction House went off the norm and provided a little bit of numbers gleamed from WowProgress about T11 raiding before 4.2. While there is some interesting data as it relates to last week's topic, that isn't the focus I want to bring up. An argument was put forth that Cataclysm raiding is less accessible today than it previously was. I feel this is a great topic to delve right into this week.
Looking back to classic raiding
First things being first, let us look at the argument being put forth. The assertion is that although the numerical difficulty of raid encounters has decreased -- the DPS and healing requirements being easier now than they were in the past -- the mechanical difficulty of these encounters has increased. Because even the most basic raid encounters have a higher mechanical difficulty than previous bosses, this sets the bar extraordinarily high for new raiders. In past raids, players were capable of making far more mistakes; also, there were fewer mistakes to be made, and these mistakes were not as costly to the raid as a whole.
It's quite a bit to take in all at once, and sadly, there isn't a simpler way of bringing it up. We'll break it all down in parts and address each issue separately to compensate. To begin, we have to look at the foundation of the argument, that today's raid encounters are more mechanically complex than past raid encounters. Depending on how you look at things, your view on the matter could be relatively skewed one way or another.
Comparing any current encounter to one found in the original Molten Core is a pure disservice to this discussion. I don't mean that in the sense that it is rude; it is more that one must consider the limitations of the time. Players had far fewer tools, both via in-game skills and now common addons. Blizzard had far more technical limitations and was inexperienced in raid design. A large factor in the difficulty of the original Molten Core (and all of vanilla raiding) was more the massive amounts of farming involved to get the gear and items required to stand a chance at the encounters, more than the mechanics of the encounters themselves.
This is not to say that Blizzard did not create brilliantly complex encounters during classic. Indeed, once they had the experience of Molten Core and Blackwing Lair under their belt, the design team churned out a wide variety of highly complex encounters: C'thun, Skeram, Rajaxx, the original Venoxis, and then a vast number of encounter in Naxx. What is important to note is that Naxx was reused as the first raiding content of Wrath, and many of those encounters still stood the test of time.
The Karazhan complex
A popular comparison for this theory is to look at either the encounters or numbers from Karazhan and use those as a comparison tool against what we have seen thus far in Cataclysm. This is a rather flawed view, as the data provided by Karazhan does not provide a full picture. Karazhan was Blizzard's most successful attempt at making raiding more open to a broader playerbase, but it was never intended to have the ramifications that it did. Blizzard understood the accessibility problem long before The Burning Crusade. This is why it created Zul'Gurub and the Ruins of Ahn'Qiraj, the first attempts at getting more players involved in raiding.
Karazhan, however, was unique in many ways. By many standards, it is a widely popular instance, but one thing that players fail to realize is that Karazhan didn't fulfill the purpose that it had. Karazhan was meant to be an introduction into raiding, a springboard for players to take a leap off of into the rest of what there was to offer. Yet very few players actually managed to do this. If you were to compare the numbers of players who cleared all of Karazhan and then moved on to actually clear Gruul's Lair and Magtheridon, it would be significantly lower than the population of players who raid today. Many players never progressed beyond Karazhan, and fewer still were the players who continued what progression they did make. As you moved from Gruul's on to SSC, then TK and from there, Hyjal on to Black Temple, you saw a pattern of fewer and fewer players who managed to complete these raid instances.
While a large portion of this is attributed to the increasing difficulty of these encounters, part of that was also due to the raid structuring of the time. Nowadays (and even back in Wrath), raids are designed to become outdated as each successive raid is released. Back in vanilla and The Burning Crusade, you had to gear through each raid in order. A raiding guild could carry you through higher content, but a fresh group of players would have to raid starting all the way at Karazhan and move its way up. Now, you can gear primarily though 5-man content in order to be prepared to enter the highest tier of raiding.
Spanning into Cataclysm
The data isn't yet there to support Cataclysm raiding, and even once Dragon Soul is released, we still won't have an entirely accurate view. Blizzard has taken many great strides to reduce the difficulty of raiding content while still attempting to keep it challenging and engaging, especially for hardcore players. With the past nerfs made to Firelands in order to open the content up even further, the data that we could glean now would be vastly skewed in favor of the most recent content -- yet that in and of itself is half the point.
Raids have been more mechanically difficult than was in the past. This is absolutely true. While the problem is as great as one might think, it is the inevitable nature of the game. Players gain more abilities, more sophisticated addons are created, and the newest content has to reflect this. Yet despite it all, none of the mechanics that we see are anything that surprisingly new.
Alysrazor tornadoes? Heigan dancing. Omnotron? How many council-style fights have we had so far? One in Ulduar, Black Temple, Gruul's Lair, Naxx ... and that's just off the top of my head. Debuff juggling, add catching, AOEing, teleporting, no healing! We've run the gamut of what this game can throw at us. Encounters might be getting more complex, but players have the tools to deal with them. Complexity does not directly correlate to difficulty.
Ready Check shares all the strategies and inside information you need to take your raiding to the next level. Be sure to look up our strategy guides to Cataclysm's 5-man instances, and for more healer-centric advice, visit Raid Rx.
Filed under: Raiding, Ready Check (Raiding)
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Reader Comments (Page 2 of 5)
ravyncat Nov 5th 2011 1:39AM
Yep. This sounds very familiar.
My guild did not die, but we lost a lot of people. The difficulty was way to high for our casual guild. We are slowly trying to hang in there and rebuild.
I have so much hope that MoP will breathe new life back into the game and our guild.
Skarn Nov 5th 2011 11:10PM
I adore the Normal difficulty level of Cataclysm raids. It's been a really great fit for my guild. We haven't spent any time in the non-nerfed Heroics of either tier, but it's likely they would be out of reach for our skill level. In contrast, the nerfed versions of Normal are so much easier they are literally boring and un-fun for us.
While I love the current tuning, I also recognize that it's too much for a lot of people out there. I've never been a fan of two difficulty levels, it's just not enough for the large variety of players that WoW has. I really hope the LFR pans out and offers a proper difficulty for those that struggle with current raids. (Related note: In the Blizzcon D&R panel, the devs said that they plan to make mechanics better tuned for an easier/less-experienced raid in LFR, not just the numbers.) It'd be great to have everyone who wants to raid, able to raid at their preferred difficulty level.
It might actually be shocking to people that I'm not a Hardcore Heroic raider, but that I still dislike the easy-mode of the nerfs. It might be hard to understand, but "too easy" really is "too boring" for me. I don't want to walk in and one-shot Dragon Soul with a PuG on release day. I also don't care how many people beat it before me and get better gear, I just want to raid with some challenge and some fun. I don't want to take that opportunity away from others though, which is why I absolutely support 3 raid difficulty levels.
ObiChad Nov 6th 2011 1:38AM
@Skarn
First off let me say that I agree with you that two difficulty level is not enough, and I too am hoping the LFR difficulty setting helps with that. I just wish they offered a 10 man version of it, even if that meant you couldn't use the tool.
As to you point of the current tuning, with the same caveat you mentioned of my opinion based on my experience with no other data points, I both agree and disagree with you. This is where difficulty and tuning and accessibility start to collide. Let me explain by way of an example.
Pre-nerf my guild was 2/7 in Firelands. Post nerf we have jumped to 6/7. Took us a few weeks to get there as many people just stopped playing after the initial stuggles. Recently I have noticed an oddity on Alysrazor, we either die spectacularly (flyers die at starfox, tanks/healers have some odd bird/worm/debuff timing, people get touchy feely with tornados) or we beat it in record (for us) time. Last time I think we killed her right as she took flight for the final round. To me, what this shows, is that we are dying to the complexity of the mechanics, while being far far ahead of the tuning. While the nerfs did change the mechanics of some fights a little, mostly they were nerfs to the tuning, which leads to the odd behavior I described above.
I too enjoy a certainly level of difficulty and I too think too easy is too boring, but I'm just wishing the next tier has a few more tightly tuned fights that are slightly less mechanically difficult.
Blayze Nov 4th 2011 10:41PM
Ah, Wrath. Those were the days. We didn't get told we couldn't enter a specific raid because we didn't have twenty-five people. We simply had our own little corner of the difficulty spectrum--a normal mode that most people could actually complete, rather than a ridiculously overtuned and unforgiving kick in the teeth.
Call me a Wrath baby if you like (You'd be wrong), but Wrath was the best expansion because it was the most accessible. God only knows how "lets make the game harder; that'll bring in more customers and therefore more money!" got past the initial brainstorming session.
rayden54 Nov 5th 2011 1:02PM
Especially since common sense would dictate the opposite. How in the world did they expect to keep the subscriptions of the people who suddenly discovered they were no longer "good enough" to play the game?
Boobah Nov 5th 2011 1:58AM
What brainstorming session? Who had to brainstorm? All the vocal people were complaining about how faceroll and mindless AoE everything was for the last year of Wrath. The people having fun weren't bitching on the forums; they were in-game enjoying themselves.
Now, I agree that Wrath had too much facerolling and mindless AoE. But that doesn't mean I wanted encounters with five or six ways to instagib me (and frequently the guy standing next to me) because I'd blinked my eyes at the wrong time. Or RNG on top of a pile of nasty abilities wiping us because the boss decides that he's gonna be stationary while standing in the bad (which only hurts players, natch) while spewing fire on everything in front of himself, and behind him is a wall. Or turning dungeons into two-hour plus slogs when everything is going fine; that last especially since everybody has limits on their playtime.
Rolly Nov 5th 2011 11:45AM
The people who scream Wrath babies are probably the people who were crying about how hard HOL was at the start of Wrath.
Boobah nailed it with his comment. Blizzard developed for the very top end guilds, the ones who treat the game like it's some kind of military exercise and even get paid for it.
DarkWalker Nov 5th 2011 1:08PM
@Boobah:
The dungeons part is what did it for me. I play in 30-minutes stretches, which was more than enough to tank a WotLK heroic, perhaps even two.
At the start of Cata, it often wasn't enough to even go through the first boss in a Heroic. Normal dungeons were taking more time than I had.
Skarn Nov 5th 2011 11:27PM
Obviously, this will be my own personal opinion and has no real basis in fact. Fortunately, this makes me no different from any of the other posters here, who are also using their own opinions with little basis in fact. We're all the same! :)
For the length of Cataclysm, I've felt that the Normal raid difficulty really IS a "normal" difficulty. Though there are obviously mistakes and exceptions, it's not a "ridiculously overtuned and unforgiving kick in the teeth." That's Heroic mode. Ok, I'll qualify that the Normal difficulty for both BoT/etc and Firelands wasn't quite right at release of either instance, but that it got to an excellent spot after the first few weeks of tweaks. The huge 20%+ nerfs dropped the raids out of "normal" difficulty and into "easy" territory.
I think most of the people that struggle with raiding right now actually want Easy difficulty, not Normal. They want something simple that they don't have to devote a lot of time to, nor find a specific dedicated raid group. That's totally fine and I hope LFR fulfills that. By it's nature, something that appeals to an entry level, lightly-committed group is novice "easy" difficulty. You start skiing on the bunny slope. You start biking with training wheels. That's easy, not "normal." When you move on to bigger slopes and take off training wheels, you are on to normal. If you want to do crazy tricks and compete in contests you are moving into hard and expert territory.
After typing all that a light goes on. Perhaps "normal" is just as annoying to define as "casual." Maybe when people say "normal" they are thinking "easy." When I say "normal" I think "medium" and that's probably what the devs think too. Anyway, I want to stress that I absolutely want lots of people to raid and to enjoy themselves. I'm all for that. I don't care how many people beat a raid before me, after me, or have better gear than me. That's irrelevant. This whole post wasn't meant to be elitist, it's to muse on difficulty levels with no intended reflection on the "value" of the people that play at any of those levels.
Blayze Nov 6th 2011 7:48AM
Yeah, perhaps "normal" difficulty needs to be renamed "medium." As for tuning, if it's possible to make a boss easier in any way by switching to hard difficulty, then something's clearly wrong. :D
Edymnion Nov 4th 2011 10:56PM
I haven't raided more than FL trash for rep for one reason: It isn't the final raid.
Long story short, I dislike spending large amounts of time grinding for gear that I know I will be replacing in a relatively short period anyway. When the first raid tier came out, I had just gotten all of my VP gear from doing random heroics when the Zuls and Firelands came out. Is the 353 Zul gear better than the 359 tier 11? No, but its a hell of a lot easier to get, and doesn't involve having to put up with elitist raiding guilds.
Now my main is maxxed out on Zul gear and VP gear and guess what? There's Dragon Soul and the new 5-mans coming out with gear that is *ALMOST* as good as the Fireland raid gear. So, I'll be running the new 5 mans to get all of that gear, and then I'll finally look into actually raiding this expansion. I plan on doing the RF until I get all the RF versions of the gear I want while I wait for the 10 man regulars to fall down to puggability (while keeping an eye out for early pugs, of course).
So when it comes right down to it, its a matter of time and effort vs. reward. I do not want to invest the time and effort to stay bleeding edge on content I know will be junk in the next couple months anyway. I did the same during Wrath. I didn't religiously pug anything up until ICC, because there was no point to it. When the final raid came, then I pulled up my big boy pants and went to work. Until then, the rest is just filler, and I don't care about filler.
injerabread Nov 5th 2011 12:09AM
First off, thanks for putting so much thought and effort in to responding to my comment from the previous post- I appreciate it! One quick note: Player vs. AH is now In An Age (http://inanage.com/), and also, in case anyone was wondering, I'm not associated with that blog in any way except as a reader.
I think we both agree that the there's currently a large chunk of the player base that's seen, learned, and improved from years of raiding, and in order to continue to challenge and entertain those players raid difficulty and complexity need to increase. I think where we differ, however, is that those increases can not come at the introductory raiding level. In many ways Blizzard has painted themselves into a corner here by, as you mentioned, moving to a model where only one tier is "current" at a time- with only one tier it becomes really difficult to continue to fit in appropriate content for a player base that's has some members constantly improving while still having complete novices joining.
Crucially, though, if that's the model they choose (and there are definitely some good reasons for doing so) I really don't think, long-term, they can do that by compromising the introductory content as they did with Tier 11. One of the reasons why I think output vs. mechanics makes a huge difference here in terms of accessibility is that a fight with mechanics ala pre-nerf T11 raids requires players to simultaneously learn the basics of raiding along with tricky mechanics, while putting a spotlight on their mistakes.
Put yourself in the shoes of a new player to WoW raiding with no or minimal raid experience starting the T11 raids: someone who had only done the levelling game before but decided to get into raiding with the onset of the new expansion, or got a taste of some pug raids (with the forgiving ICC buff) and decided to get serious about raiding in Cata, or perhaps someone's rl friend that got recruit-a-friended up and is eager to join them in raids.
Addons and learned experience aren't going to help that player very much. There's shared wisdom that can be passed down, but nothing can provide the experience of having done other spread out-collapse fights, dodge fire fights, blow cd fights, etc. Addons? They don't have hours of practice with raid awareness yet to be able to consistently monitor their boss mod along with everything else going on. Healers haven't tweaked their raid frames just right, buffs and debuffs aren't filtered, enemy cast bars don't have the right size and position to avoid missing interrupts, etc. They're not used to healing with other healers, or dps'ing anything for more than a minute, using tank cd's with these kinds of incoming damage. Neither were we when we started raiding, either. We learned, and new players will too.
The big difference, though, is that we didn't have to learn in an environment where the success of the raid depended specifically on how we individually performed, at least to any great deal. By stressing lots of mechanics in the introductory raids- particularly pass-fail mechanics- Blizzard didn't give new players the space to learn in T11. Conclave of Wind, e.g., separates the healers into 3 groups, which means that it's not a check on the raid's healing, it's a check on your worst healer. How many fights in Wrath forced zero cross healing? Even if you had strict assignments you could at least blow a cd to help out if one of the other healers was struggling, except for parts of a few fights late in the raids like Thorim and Thaddeus.
Likewise, ODS provides players with about half a dozen ways to kill themselves, and in a raid with 10 players (some new), a death is often a wipe. Those deaths aren't particularly difficult to avoid for an experienced player, but for a new player that's trying hard and gets lost in his or her rotation or raid frames they're a significant danger. And, like Conclave, the mechanics are testing the worst player, not the group or the best.
Those two fights were many players very first experience raiding! Unlike them, I got to learn on Attumen which required me to do practically nothing except focus on the basics of my class. By the time I was given the chance to blow up my guild with Flame Wreath I had plenty practice handling the basics.
I could be way off base here, but I think raiders who have been raiding for years may not realize that, over time, they've self-selected into groups with much more similar skill level than what one would find in guild just starting out, and thus these particular mechanisms just don't resonate as much.
TL;DR: I guess the way I see it is that fights that focus heavily on each individual raiders' ability to handle mechanics simply aren't particularly accessible in my mind. New players must learn both the basics of raiding and the mechanics simultaneously. Making guild
progress tied to the ability of the worst player's ability to handle mechanics is very disrupting to guilds with disparate levels of skill and a frustrating barrier to new players wanting to get into raiding.
Boobah Nov 5th 2011 2:17AM
^This!
This: "Complexity does not directly correlate to difficulty." on the other hand, is complete BS. The more that is going on, the more ways for someone to screw up. The more people screw up, the more difficult the encounter is for everyone else, assuming it doesn't instantly mean a wipe. Worse, once stuff starts going wrong, people more easily fall behind in their OODA loop; this leads to cascading bad moves. It gets even worse when folks outright panic.
Even worse, complexity can lead to RNG completely screwing the players over, because abilities happen to synergize and there's just nothing you can do.
Blayze Nov 5th 2011 8:24AM
The easy/LFR mode of every raid NEEDS to be at Naxx level, because most people running it will be those who are either incapable, undergeared, unwilling or uncertain of their ability to do "normal" raids.
The last thing we need is for people and guilds to get stuck in the Cataclysm/MoP versions of Karazhan until the end of time because other people use them as a springboard to reach "better" guilds.
Celeane Nov 5th 2011 10:49AM
Great post, and covers almost all of the concerns I had.
The only concern I didn't see addressed much is the skill gap and what it means for recruitment. We are 7/7 with no hope of doing hardmodes unless we get more raiders at the right level, and we just aren't getting those apps, at all. People without raid experience, or just nerfed T11 experience, wouldn't be worth the risk at all if they weren't the only choice. In general, there's a reason they weren't raiding before, and it's either they didn't have the skill, or they don't care to deal with raiding for long.
ObiChad Nov 5th 2011 2:35PM
I too wanted to express my thanks for this column. I know a few of us sort of derailed the topic of the last column due to all the accessibility mentions so it's good to see that as a separate topic.
@injerabread - Agree with pretty much all of that.
Tyler Caraway Nov 5th 2011 7:02PM
The one thing that people, not just you, have mentioned multiple times over that I just don't understand is this notion that there are "multiple one-shot mechanics" on any given encounter that a players has to learn.
I do raid hard modes currently, back in TBC I was in one of the world top guilds, struggling to get world firsts, so I know from also running with a far less progressed guild at the time that I have a vastly different view point and skill level than "average" players. I may play with "average" players now and again, I may have first-hand knowledge of their experiences, but I will grant that just my being there skews that, because I bring with me the skills that I have honed over the years.
Yet, I just don't see it. The only time that I have ever been one-shot on Magmaw is when I pulled aggro when the tank got picked up, Beyond that, even in heroic a meteor or lava burst wouldn't one-shot a player. It's a high amount of damage and getting hit over and over again will strain your healers, sure, but it won't one-shot you.
The same is nearly true with ODS. Magmatron had two abilities, a generic AoE and an avoidable flamethrower. The flamethrower isn't going to one-shot anyone, although they do need healing, and standing in the raid with it will cause people to die, but a mistake of having two or potentially even three players getting hit by it wouldn't automatically result in death, and there is certainly time for adjustment. Arcane Annihilator from Arcanotron also won't one-shot anyone. It hurts and you want to interrupt as many as you can, but even in heroic should some get off, people won't outright die.
Neither of Electron's abilities are one-shots either, maybe if an entire 10-man raid is all stacked on top of the player with the debuff it will chain enough to reach the point where it one-shots someone, but in an standard raid mixed with melee and ranged where people are even loosely spread out, it won't reach that level of damage. The only ability that would one-shot a player on ODS was the slimes from Toxitron.
Atramedes doesn't have any one-shot abilities, nor does Maloriak, or Chimaeron. Halfus didn't have any, Twin Dragons kind of did if you dispelled Blackout without being properly stacked. I never got hit by it but I believe Glacion could one shot iced players with his ultimate, but that was it. A player that got Lightning Rod and didn't run out could wipe a raid though.
In Firelands, Shannox certainly doesn't have any one-shot abilities, and he was killable in heroic even if you messed up on Ice Traps before the nerfs. Rhyolith won't one-shot anyone, and there's only one, extremely avoidable ability on Beth'tilac that will one-shot a player. Baleroc won't one-shot anyone, although messing up a crystal will probably result in your personal death. Alysrazor is ... unique. Tornadoes won't one-shot anyone, but it's difficult to get any healing in that phase so multiple hits will kill you. He cleave won't one-shot you, but will probably hit you twice which does kill you, although only tanks should be anywhere near the middle. The largest danger of the encounter is the Magma Worms, it isn't technically a one-shot, but it can feel like it since they will kill you in about three seconds if you get caught by a flame jet. Staghelm doesn't have any one-shot abilities either, unless the entire raid is making a mistake on Flamesycthe.
I agree that encounters are more complex now than they were previously, but I don't really agree that this complexity inherently increases difficulty. Even 5-man boss encounters are far more complex than they used to be, it's the natural development of the game. I would have agreed with you on Omnotron being a bad choice for its position in the raid, but, percentage wise, fewer people that managed to down Omnotron managed to kill any of the other bosses beyond him.
Complexity increases the learning curve for an encounter, but that doesn't directly translate into difficulty. A boss can have five hundred abilities, but if you level out the damage that each of them can do, then it doesn't matter. Cataclysm raids are much harder by numerical design than Wrath raids. This is 100% true. I wouldn't doubt at all that the number of players whom PuG raids has drastically gone down, but that doesn't means that the number of players whom raid overall has similarly decreased.
Perhaps I am merely being slightly elitist, but I don't see why even normal mode raids cannot be challenging. Why is it so wrong for more casual players to struggle to down more casual oriented content while hard core raiders struggle to down hard core content? Is not challenge fun? Is victory not sweeter when it takes effort to achieve?
I'm asking because I truthfully do not know nor understand this concept. I get that not all raids should be balanced to the extreme that they once were, I accept that not every player has the same level of time investment or skill as every other, but I don't understand how that can be used as a seeming excuse. Wrong though it may be, I don't understand this concept that normal mode raids shouldn't have any challenge in them at all so that even the most casual of players can toss together any rag-tag group they want and clear the instance in under 2 hours. I want for every player to raid, but I also feel that raiding, in of itself, should provide a challenge regardless of the level you raid at. Raids should be more difficult than 5 man content, yet -- and this isn't saying you specifically -- there seems to be this notion that raids should only be as difficult and complex as any 5 man encounter.
I just want to understand what it is that everyone is looking for. Wrath was too easy, Cataclysm is too hard, where's this middle ground?
Tyler Caraway Nov 5th 2011 7:07PM
The sad realization that I think I just wrote a comment longer than the actual article. :(
injerabread Nov 6th 2011 1:30AM
1. I agree challenge is good, but having entry-level accessibility is mandatory. Ideally we get both.
2. You need to be more creative in thinking of ways fights can kill you. ;) Atramedes had lots of "one mistake, one wipe" mechanics, at least pre-nerf. The breath could catch you, you could drag it into someone else, you could be too slow on the gong, you could mishandle kiting.
3. In fact, I think all of the fights in T11 had multiple mechanics of this sort, except for Halfus, Magmaw, and Cho'gall.
4. I could go through them all, but you're right we're not on the same page here. I think you're used to being around players that don't make many mistakes. In my guild we had a some people who were very knowledgeable and skilled in most things, but struggled with "silly" things like jumping out of the lava on Nef, or reacting to things within a second.
5. If I can get you to take my word that there were, in T11, lots of fights that heavily punished mistakes, then what you see is that most T11 wasn't testing the strongest players but the weakest. You can progress as far as your weakest player is able to avoid making mistakes. Your better players can not compensate for a raid-wiping mistake.
6. Neither you nor I want a model like this. I don't like this model because it's horrid for new players, who need space to learn how to play their class before they're worrying about wiping raids. Also, it's inaccessible to groups with wide variation in skill.
7. You, however, don't (or shouldn't :) ) want this model because it acts to limit challenge. If you're only testing the weakest players you're not challenging the strongest. If a raid tests the weak the only way to make it accessible to players is to make it trivial. If it tests the average then you can ramp up the overall difficulty while still allowing wide participation.
Quick example: Ascendant Council p2. Instead of making everyone get the buff to live through shock/quake make the raid collect a number of stacks shared between everyone. Now you can actually make the mechanic more challenging but also making it more accessible. How? Because before it only tested who was bad at getting the buff, not who was good at it. Now you can crank the average difficulty up and still allow new or less-skilled players to participate.
ObiChad Nov 6th 2011 1:12AM
@Tyler
No worries on the long reply. I for one greatly appreciate you diving into the comments hear and having a discussion. But it will be hard to reply to all of that. Here we go.
First off, I try not to say one shots, since most of what I talk about isn't actually a one shot ability. It is however normally a high damage ability in a fight with other damage going on such that it is highly likely that it will kill you if it happens. And I'm talking about the raids as they pre big nerfs. With that out of the way ...
Magmaw, he did have some funny aggro issues that caused actual one shots (annoying on an intro boss), but my main issue on this fight is the penalty for being hit by a worm. It's recoverable to be sure, but not by much. Not too mention the fight requires a kiter, which I think is a tough role for an intro boss to require.
ODS, letting through the intetturptable arcane ability could easily kill someone, especially if Magmatron was up at the same time. The adds chasing you were normally a kill shot as well. I have no problem with council fights, nor chaotic fights, but this one felt more random/chaotic than normal, and certainly more so than an early boss.
Maloriak I've always felt was easy and should have been in the front. The final phase can be a bit weird, and you've got to have your interrupts right, but overall not bad.
Chimaeron. Oh God Chimaeron. The healer fight. The blink and someone dies fight. I can only assume you didn't heal this if you don't think of this as a one shot fight. One missed spell from a healer means someone dies. Ugh. Dislike. Thankful the tuning nerf also changed the mechanic on this one.
Atramedes. The gong mechanic to interrupt him is pretty nasty if you miss, but its recoverable and really I have a hard time complaining about this fight too much. It's not easy, but appropriately difficult.
Nef - I didn't do Nef pre-nerf and I always allow for final bosses to be much harder not nothing to say here.
Bastion - overall I was OK with this place. I think Halfus was a little rough on the healers for the fight minute of the fight, the Dragons were a bit chaotic (Stack, spread, avoid breath, avoid swirlies, kinda stack, avoid fire, ahhh), the elemental fight had some weird near one shot mechanics (not dropping waterlogged, not interrupting), but again overall OK.
Conclave - Weird platform jumping mechanics and weird falling off the platform mechanics did not help this fight. Neither did separating the healers. And then add a they all die together mechanic. A little much for an early fight imo.
Al-Akir - final boss so gets a pass but way too much going on in phase one, and flying in phase three, really?
I strayed a bit from the one shot idea and this has gone on a while so I'll break for a new comment.