Ready Check: Looking at raid accessibility
Ready Check helps you prepare yourself and your raid for the bosses that simply require killing. Check back with Ready Check each week for the latest pointers on killing adds, not standing in fire, and hoping for loot that won't drop. Questions, comments, or something you would like to see? Email me at tyler@wowinsider or message me on Twitter @murmursofadruid.
Last week, we brushed upon the topic of what the next expansion might hold for raiding. Specifically, the talk centered around the concept that raiding cannot be Blizzard's sole focus any more. As much effort as has been put into raiding, not every player is capable of getting involved with it. The argument was that Blizzard needed to focus on other content for max-level players aside from raiding and questioned what impact that would have on raiding overall.
First, at little bit of information. The blog Player vs. Auction House went off the norm and provided a little bit of numbers gleamed from WowProgress about T11 raiding before 4.2. While there is some interesting data as it relates to last week's topic, that isn't the focus I want to bring up. An argument was put forth that Cataclysm raiding is less accessible today than it previously was. I feel this is a great topic to delve right into this week.
Looking back to classic raiding
First things being first, let us look at the argument being put forth. The assertion is that although the numerical difficulty of raid encounters has decreased -- the DPS and healing requirements being easier now than they were in the past -- the mechanical difficulty of these encounters has increased. Because even the most basic raid encounters have a higher mechanical difficulty than previous bosses, this sets the bar extraordinarily high for new raiders. In past raids, players were capable of making far more mistakes; also, there were fewer mistakes to be made, and these mistakes were not as costly to the raid as a whole.
It's quite a bit to take in all at once, and sadly, there isn't a simpler way of bringing it up. We'll break it all down in parts and address each issue separately to compensate. To begin, we have to look at the foundation of the argument, that today's raid encounters are more mechanically complex than past raid encounters. Depending on how you look at things, your view on the matter could be relatively skewed one way or another.
Comparing any current encounter to one found in the original Molten Core is a pure disservice to this discussion. I don't mean that in the sense that it is rude; it is more that one must consider the limitations of the time. Players had far fewer tools, both via in-game skills and now common addons. Blizzard had far more technical limitations and was inexperienced in raid design. A large factor in the difficulty of the original Molten Core (and all of vanilla raiding) was more the massive amounts of farming involved to get the gear and items required to stand a chance at the encounters, more than the mechanics of the encounters themselves.
This is not to say that Blizzard did not create brilliantly complex encounters during classic. Indeed, once they had the experience of Molten Core and Blackwing Lair under their belt, the design team churned out a wide variety of highly complex encounters: C'thun, Skeram, Rajaxx, the original Venoxis, and then a vast number of encounter in Naxx. What is important to note is that Naxx was reused as the first raiding content of Wrath, and many of those encounters still stood the test of time.
The Karazhan complex
A popular comparison for this theory is to look at either the encounters or numbers from Karazhan and use those as a comparison tool against what we have seen thus far in Cataclysm. This is a rather flawed view, as the data provided by Karazhan does not provide a full picture. Karazhan was Blizzard's most successful attempt at making raiding more open to a broader playerbase, but it was never intended to have the ramifications that it did. Blizzard understood the accessibility problem long before The Burning Crusade. This is why it created Zul'Gurub and the Ruins of Ahn'Qiraj, the first attempts at getting more players involved in raiding.
Karazhan, however, was unique in many ways. By many standards, it is a widely popular instance, but one thing that players fail to realize is that Karazhan didn't fulfill the purpose that it had. Karazhan was meant to be an introduction into raiding, a springboard for players to take a leap off of into the rest of what there was to offer. Yet very few players actually managed to do this. If you were to compare the numbers of players who cleared all of Karazhan and then moved on to actually clear Gruul's Lair and Magtheridon, it would be significantly lower than the population of players who raid today. Many players never progressed beyond Karazhan, and fewer still were the players who continued what progression they did make. As you moved from Gruul's on to SSC, then TK and from there, Hyjal on to Black Temple, you saw a pattern of fewer and fewer players who managed to complete these raid instances.
While a large portion of this is attributed to the increasing difficulty of these encounters, part of that was also due to the raid structuring of the time. Nowadays (and even back in Wrath), raids are designed to become outdated as each successive raid is released. Back in vanilla and The Burning Crusade, you had to gear through each raid in order. A raiding guild could carry you through higher content, but a fresh group of players would have to raid starting all the way at Karazhan and move its way up. Now, you can gear primarily though 5-man content in order to be prepared to enter the highest tier of raiding.
Spanning into Cataclysm
The data isn't yet there to support Cataclysm raiding, and even once Dragon Soul is released, we still won't have an entirely accurate view. Blizzard has taken many great strides to reduce the difficulty of raiding content while still attempting to keep it challenging and engaging, especially for hardcore players. With the past nerfs made to Firelands in order to open the content up even further, the data that we could glean now would be vastly skewed in favor of the most recent content -- yet that in and of itself is half the point.
Raids have been more mechanically difficult than was in the past. This is absolutely true. While the problem is as great as one might think, it is the inevitable nature of the game. Players gain more abilities, more sophisticated addons are created, and the newest content has to reflect this. Yet despite it all, none of the mechanics that we see are anything that surprisingly new.
Alysrazor tornadoes? Heigan dancing. Omnotron? How many council-style fights have we had so far? One in Ulduar, Black Temple, Gruul's Lair, Naxx ... and that's just off the top of my head. Debuff juggling, add catching, AOEing, teleporting, no healing! We've run the gamut of what this game can throw at us. Encounters might be getting more complex, but players have the tools to deal with them. Complexity does not directly correlate to difficulty.
Ready Check shares all the strategies and inside information you need to take your raiding to the next level. Be sure to look up our strategy guides to Cataclysm's 5-man instances, and for more healer-centric advice, visit Raid Rx.
Last week, we brushed upon the topic of what the next expansion might hold for raiding. Specifically, the talk centered around the concept that raiding cannot be Blizzard's sole focus any more. As much effort as has been put into raiding, not every player is capable of getting involved with it. The argument was that Blizzard needed to focus on other content for max-level players aside from raiding and questioned what impact that would have on raiding overall.
First, at little bit of information. The blog Player vs. Auction House went off the norm and provided a little bit of numbers gleamed from WowProgress about T11 raiding before 4.2. While there is some interesting data as it relates to last week's topic, that isn't the focus I want to bring up. An argument was put forth that Cataclysm raiding is less accessible today than it previously was. I feel this is a great topic to delve right into this week.
Looking back to classic raiding
First things being first, let us look at the argument being put forth. The assertion is that although the numerical difficulty of raid encounters has decreased -- the DPS and healing requirements being easier now than they were in the past -- the mechanical difficulty of these encounters has increased. Because even the most basic raid encounters have a higher mechanical difficulty than previous bosses, this sets the bar extraordinarily high for new raiders. In past raids, players were capable of making far more mistakes; also, there were fewer mistakes to be made, and these mistakes were not as costly to the raid as a whole.
It's quite a bit to take in all at once, and sadly, there isn't a simpler way of bringing it up. We'll break it all down in parts and address each issue separately to compensate. To begin, we have to look at the foundation of the argument, that today's raid encounters are more mechanically complex than past raid encounters. Depending on how you look at things, your view on the matter could be relatively skewed one way or another.
Comparing any current encounter to one found in the original Molten Core is a pure disservice to this discussion. I don't mean that in the sense that it is rude; it is more that one must consider the limitations of the time. Players had far fewer tools, both via in-game skills and now common addons. Blizzard had far more technical limitations and was inexperienced in raid design. A large factor in the difficulty of the original Molten Core (and all of vanilla raiding) was more the massive amounts of farming involved to get the gear and items required to stand a chance at the encounters, more than the mechanics of the encounters themselves.
This is not to say that Blizzard did not create brilliantly complex encounters during classic. Indeed, once they had the experience of Molten Core and Blackwing Lair under their belt, the design team churned out a wide variety of highly complex encounters: C'thun, Skeram, Rajaxx, the original Venoxis, and then a vast number of encounter in Naxx. What is important to note is that Naxx was reused as the first raiding content of Wrath, and many of those encounters still stood the test of time.
The Karazhan complex
A popular comparison for this theory is to look at either the encounters or numbers from Karazhan and use those as a comparison tool against what we have seen thus far in Cataclysm. This is a rather flawed view, as the data provided by Karazhan does not provide a full picture. Karazhan was Blizzard's most successful attempt at making raiding more open to a broader playerbase, but it was never intended to have the ramifications that it did. Blizzard understood the accessibility problem long before The Burning Crusade. This is why it created Zul'Gurub and the Ruins of Ahn'Qiraj, the first attempts at getting more players involved in raiding.
Karazhan, however, was unique in many ways. By many standards, it is a widely popular instance, but one thing that players fail to realize is that Karazhan didn't fulfill the purpose that it had. Karazhan was meant to be an introduction into raiding, a springboard for players to take a leap off of into the rest of what there was to offer. Yet very few players actually managed to do this. If you were to compare the numbers of players who cleared all of Karazhan and then moved on to actually clear Gruul's Lair and Magtheridon, it would be significantly lower than the population of players who raid today. Many players never progressed beyond Karazhan, and fewer still were the players who continued what progression they did make. As you moved from Gruul's on to SSC, then TK and from there, Hyjal on to Black Temple, you saw a pattern of fewer and fewer players who managed to complete these raid instances.
While a large portion of this is attributed to the increasing difficulty of these encounters, part of that was also due to the raid structuring of the time. Nowadays (and even back in Wrath), raids are designed to become outdated as each successive raid is released. Back in vanilla and The Burning Crusade, you had to gear through each raid in order. A raiding guild could carry you through higher content, but a fresh group of players would have to raid starting all the way at Karazhan and move its way up. Now, you can gear primarily though 5-man content in order to be prepared to enter the highest tier of raiding.
Spanning into Cataclysm
The data isn't yet there to support Cataclysm raiding, and even once Dragon Soul is released, we still won't have an entirely accurate view. Blizzard has taken many great strides to reduce the difficulty of raiding content while still attempting to keep it challenging and engaging, especially for hardcore players. With the past nerfs made to Firelands in order to open the content up even further, the data that we could glean now would be vastly skewed in favor of the most recent content -- yet that in and of itself is half the point.
Raids have been more mechanically difficult than was in the past. This is absolutely true. While the problem is as great as one might think, it is the inevitable nature of the game. Players gain more abilities, more sophisticated addons are created, and the newest content has to reflect this. Yet despite it all, none of the mechanics that we see are anything that surprisingly new.
Alysrazor tornadoes? Heigan dancing. Omnotron? How many council-style fights have we had so far? One in Ulduar, Black Temple, Gruul's Lair, Naxx ... and that's just off the top of my head. Debuff juggling, add catching, AOEing, teleporting, no healing! We've run the gamut of what this game can throw at us. Encounters might be getting more complex, but players have the tools to deal with them. Complexity does not directly correlate to difficulty.
Ready Check shares all the strategies and inside information you need to take your raiding to the next level. Be sure to look up our strategy guides to Cataclysm's 5-man instances, and for more healer-centric advice, visit Raid Rx.
Filed under: Raiding, Ready Check (Raiding)
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Reader Comments (Page 4 of 5)
Puntable Nov 5th 2011 9:36AM
The thing that caused a huge step backwards in accessability in Cata was guild leveling. It is now impossible to create a raiding guild from scratch. Everyone wants to join a level 25 guild. As old established raiding guilds die out, there are no new guilds coming up to replace them. On my server, there are a few veteran 25-man raiding guilds, and a lot of raiders stuck in guilds that do not raid, and no room for them in any guild that actually does raid.
Llowe Nov 5th 2011 9:47AM
I've always been unhappy with the Guild Leveling system. I'm sticking with my level zero RP guilds because that's what I want to do, and out of spite for all the perks large guilds have. ;)
rukamich Nov 5th 2011 9:40AM
I'm in the "non-raider who's bored" boat. I've played since early Vanilla and had the most fun raiding during BC because of the fun of Kara (and subsequent raids). It was easier for me to raid back then because the raids were interesting enough to get more folks raiding (thus I could get into raids despite working on a shift completely opposite of 90% of my guild). Since Wrath and Cata, folks have become disillusioned enough to NOT want to raid (they either don't find the raids interesting [myself included] or they can't get into raids because they can't dedicate the time that folks demand).
I don't raid anymore because fewer and fewer folks are raiding when I'm playing. The folks that do are mostly douchey to the point of intolerance, as a result I'm stuck puttering around on alts because I don't feel like being verbally assaulted by groups not satisfied with anyone below ilevel 378. If I had more things to do at 85, I would have more fun with this game. As it is, I play less and less and eagerly await the arrival of The Old Republic.
Blizz needs to SERIOUSLY re-evaluate the game at this point (perhaps with an in-game survey) and find out what people are truly interested in. Instead of just tweaking the game to "balance" it around raids and arena play (another POS system, imo--I spent 90% of my time in bgs back in Vanilla, stopped pvping when the old system was scrapped). They need to figure out a way to keep "casuals" (ie: the non-arena and raid farmers) interested in playing if the game is to keep on going until the release their next MMO. There are only so many dailies that people are willing to do and so much sitting in Org/SW trolling /2.
Rolly Nov 5th 2011 4:28PM
"The folks that do are mostly douchey to the point of intolerance, as a result I'm stuck puttering around on alts because I don't feel like being verbally assaulted by groups not satisfied with anyone below ilevel 378. If I had more things to do at 85, I would have more fun with this game. As it is, I play less and less and eagerly await the arrival of The Old Republic."
This is pretty well me as well, server I play on wants ilvl 360 and higher to run Tier 11 never mind FL. Heaven forbid you should actually get into a T11 raid and have 346 shoulders on,if anyone notices your kicked.
Firestyle Nov 5th 2011 10:42AM
I think the TBC model was superior to all. It had it's flaws for sure. If I could design a raiding model for WoW, based on what I know, it would be TBC again, with a slightly easier access to the vendor badge gear from IQD. Or, better yet - our current model, with the absence of valor gear - just the justice gear.
I also think tier 11 is a travesty compared to Karazhan. Despite few people graduating from karazhan, many people graduated from karazhan raid school.
I'd take a raider that cleared kara back in the day over any raider that's joined the game in the past 3 years. What does that say?
Rob Nov 5th 2011 10:56AM
That you'd take a raider who raided 5 years ago (and probably still has raided) versus the player without raid experience? Not sure what you are trying to say, except that you'd rather play with more experienced people.
Maybe we need to go back to a MC model where only half the raid was really required. Nowadays if one person doesnt know what to do = wipe. Mayb
Firestyle Nov 5th 2011 11:26AM
Yes, I'll take someone who played BC over most new raiders. Call it experience if you want. Or call it trial by fire.
jumpingsimian Nov 5th 2011 11:54AM
The problem with accessibility to raiding is not just difficulty (perceived or otherwise) its about the failings of the community and perceptions of missing out.
Failings of the community - Raids require co-operation and leadership - for this you really need a guild as the community as a whole is rather unforgiving. Your guild dosent need to be a raiding guild but you need a team that is willing to put in some work to learn to be raiders. If you can get a friendly raider from another guild to come along and help out good for you - you have obviously not been an ass in dungeon pug's and found one of the many good and helpful people in wow. Get your fresh raid group into TOC and learn to raid and work your way up, the current tier shouldn't be at a level to walk into you should have to attune yourself to it (as a raider rather than questing) before trying it. In quite a short period of time you will be ready for FL and can class yourselves as raiders.
Missing out - how? by skipping all the older raids you are missing out on far more content than the latest tier. Learn at a lower level raid and work up you will have good fun, learn the basics, whilst the number requirements ramp up. When you hit current tier you will have far more experience and seen more content than somebody who dosent want to miss out by dinging 85 then running current tier.
Gniver Nov 5th 2011 1:01PM
Your recommendations seem odd: there are very few genuinely experienced raider of leader quality hanging around waiting to teach new groups the ropes. There are also very few groups willing to do outdated content just "to learn".
Instead, what you will encounter as you try to get into raiding is a lower crust of angry and stressed-out failed raiders who try to get into a group that will work, but know that most groups actually won't.
DarkWalker Nov 5th 2011 6:15PM
I don't care if the community is the problem. If I'm paying a sub to play, I expect the dev/publisher to actually use the money I'm paying them to fix the game's problems - and this includes finding a way to "fix" the raiding scene and allow any willing and minimally competent player to actually raid.
If the dev/publishers can't do it, maybe their game is not worth paying for.
(In Blizzard's defense, they do seem to be working to enable more players to raid. On the other hand, after the LFR's easier difficulty, I doubt I will ever set foot in a normal raid again; if the LFR version has access to the full lore, the extra benefits from the normal mode, for me, will not be worth having to coordinate my schedule with other 9/24 people.)
Tyler Caraway Nov 6th 2011 11:54AM
@DarkWalker
Your comments are grossly unfair. WoW raiding is -miles- ahead of where it once was. There is simply no comparison to raiding now and what it was back in vanilla and TBC. Far, far more people will get to expereince the new Ragnaros and Deathwing encounters than ever got to see Illidan, KT, Vash, or Kil'jaeden, and the original Naxx? Remember that the reason Blizzard brought Naxx back was that less than 1% of the player base -- the player base back then, since it has grown considerably -- got a chance to even see a single encounter from that raid.
Considering we're not talking about a good 30% of the player base raiding, it's a huge step forward. It can be improved, sure, but they certainly aren't at any fault here.
Stilhelm Nov 5th 2011 1:44PM
I find it ironic that so many people are complaining that they only want to run current content, and also that the current content is not an entry level raid. Sure, Kara was a great entry level raid. However, in the BC model, even if you started late in BC, you started in Kara, and then if you wanted to advance further you switched to 25-man guilds.
In Wrath, that was no longer necessary. 10-man raids were available throughout the tiers. You didn't even have to gear up in Naxx to raid in Ulduar, ToC, or ICC, you could run heroics and buy emblem gear.
I do think the Cata raids were a bit over-tuned for most people pre-nerf. However, at this point, they are the "entry level raids". If you're a new group of inexperienced raiders, there is no reason to go wipe incessantly in FL. Now that BWD/BOT have been nerfed, many of the mechanics will not outright kill someone or wipe a raid anymore. Once a group can regularly complete BOT and BWD, they will find a nice increase in challenge in FL, but it won't be the group-killer it can be without some level of experience. A fresh, inexperienced raid group should be able to complete BWD and BOT in a couple weeks, which will give them some confidence to go along with their learning.
I really find it amazing that so many people figure they can't have fun if they aren't doing what the high-end raiders are doing. Do you think you should start running tomorrow by winning a marathon? Do you think you should pick up a bicycle today for the first time in years and be able to win a triathlon? Maybe you should pick up a football for the first time today and be winning the Superbowl tomorrow? You drive your car every day to work, to the store, etc. That gives you plenty of "experience", you should be able to hop into a race car and win anywhere, right?
If you think about what it takes to be at the upper levels of *any* competitive activity, you'll see that not everyone can do it. Some don't have the time, some don't have the ability, and some don't have the willpower.
The fact that there is a competitive activity embedded in WoW doesn't mean that everyone should be able to be at the top of it. Blizzard has made *huge* leaps in accessibility. I started rather late in BC, and I didn't see "LFM SWP boss run" in trade, and you had to be pretty geared to get into SWP trash runs. At this point, it's not difficult to find a FL boss pug doing at least 3/7. Lots of casual guilds are 6/7, and even though they may not be able to kill Ragnaros, they can at least see it. How many people were able to even see Kil'jaeden in BC?
For all the talk about Wrath being faceroll, how many made it past Mimiron in Ulduar when it was current? How many even saw Mimiron when it was current? I'd bet there are a lot more people seeing Majordomo Staghelm now, while it's current, than saw Mimiron while it was current. And that was in Wrath, the "faceroll" expansion.
ObiChad Nov 5th 2011 3:06PM
A couple of things here.
Certainly Tier 11 is easier now than it was due to the nerf, but that took six months. What you suggest is fine now, but many people I raided with got fed up enough before that, that they have stopped playing. So while it MAY not be an issue now, it was then, and that's part of what we are discussing. If what Blizzard is promoting is a mix of the Wrath and BC raiding model, that's fine, but that didn't exist during Tier 11. Also, considering they are introducing an new raid difficulty level in 4.3 (LFR tool) I'm not really sure that's what they are saying the model really is.
"I really find it amazing that so many people figure they can't have fun if they aren't doing what the high-end raiders are doing." - For me this is why I though there was normal mode and heroic mode. Let the high end raiders do heroic and the rest of us raiders do normal.
As to the level of difficulty of T11 currently, is it accessible? I'm not sure. I still feel like I could get a new person through more fights in ICC (even pre raid buff) than I could get them through in T11. Having done this recently with someone who hadn't raided, they quickly go overwhelmed with everything that was going on and told me they weren't likely to do it again. That's only one experience so it's hard to build an argument from it, but it's the only data point I have.
"For all the talk about Wrath being faceroll, how many made it past Mimiron in Ulduar when it was current? How many even saw Mimiron when it was current? I'd bet there are a lot more people seeing Majordomo Staghelm now, while it's current, than saw Mimiron while it was current. And that was in Wrath, the "faceroll" expansion." - Hmm, I wonder. From the data on Firelands it looks like a third or so of T11 raiders stopped raiding, or at least haven't been able to down any FL bosses. So I'm not certainly what you are saying is the case. Also remember Ulduar when current didn't have the raid id extend option so any guild with limited time had a hard time progressing all the way to Yogg (this was certainly an issue in my guild.) As to the Wrath faceroll talk, I've always thought that gets overblown due to a number of factors, Naxx25 being severely undertuned, 10s being tuned a tier lower than 25s, the ICC stacking raid buff, and the model of "only the recent tier is current".
injerabread Nov 5th 2011 3:22PM
"I find it ironic that so many people are complaining that they only want to run current content, and also that the current content is not an entry level raid."
"Current" content is content that lets you advance your character. The system is set up now that you do this by running the most advanced raid or random dungeons. This means that all players are funneled in to each raid, regardless of experience. If there's only one tier, and you want new raiders, then every raid needs to have some content that's accessible to new players.
There are a lot of ways of changing the system so that this isn't necessarily true, and you can have "hard" and "easy" raids. If, e.g., you made it so that you only could earn valor points running raids, the now nerfed T11 would become "current" again, much like Kara remained as a popular introduction to raiding throughout most of BC. BC, though, brought along it's own share of problems in terms of accessibility. In Wrath, Naxx stayed fairly relevant throughout the life of Ulduar because there was no real gear reset in 4.1. It was ToC that really started the movement towards obsoleting all content every tier. It worked out okay in Wrath, however, because ToC and ICC both had content that was friendly to new players.
It's important to keep in mind, though, that when people (or at least me) talk about the inaccessibility of raids it's not an issue of feeling entitled to beat every encounter in the game without work, it's making sure there's relevant content there for everyone. I did beat Mimiron when he was current (and Yogg too), but I also wiped on Morose for two weeks when I first started playing with a group of similarly new payers. If we had to fight ODS as my first fight I'm pretty sure we would have said, eighty wipes later, "Raiding isn't for us." Without a constant influx of new raiders, all raiding guilds will eventually die to attrition.
This, incidentally, is why I really think LFR is going to hurt raiding more than it helps. While it creates a space where anyone can raid, if LFD is any example it's going to be horribly unwelcoming to new players. 24 random strangers don't want to wipe, even once, while a new player learns raid awareness. Instead, the player will get kicked over a few objections, and they'll come out of the situation thinking, "I'm just not good enough for this." All the while, recruitment becomes even harder...
ObiChad Nov 5th 2011 3:24PM
I really liked what I read as a way of starting to talk about this, but it felt like only the begining and not the full piece. "We'll break it all down in parts and address each issue separately to compensate." Maybe this is just part 1?
I agree on your Molten Core and Karazhan points. MC was Blizzard's first attempt at figuring things out so its hard to use as a point of comparison. Kara as the only 10 man raid at the time (before ZA) and as the starter raid of a raid tiering model, has to be handled a little different than any examples from Wrath. No arguments there.
"Yet despite it all, none of the mechanics that we see are anything that surprisingly new." - They aren't new to someone that has raided before, but they are quite new to people who started raiding in Cata, and often presented in more complex combinations.
"Complexity does not directly correlate to difficulty." - Maybe it doesn't directly correlate but it's certainly a factor. Take Heigan's dance in Wrath. Some people just could not handle the complexity of the dance, and yet, for most groups, it was an easy kill. Why? It could probably be done with three people who did know the dance. Just might take a while. Now let's say we added tight enrage. All of a sudden it would become a hard fight as you would need everyone to stay alive. Still, this would be possible to overgear it and you could bring newbies to learn it once you did. Now let's change it so that if someone dies on the dance they kill the whole raid. Hey, now it's a Cata fight. :) An extreme example that I cherry picked for my purposes, but you get the idea. Complexity contributes to difficulty.
Mylozen Nov 5th 2011 4:51PM
I disagree with all of you saying that Cat is too difficult. I think thy have finally stuck the perfect level of difficulty and complexity to make some truly entertaining battles. They nerd the content to help people along and they are adding a new lower difficulty level for players that lack the ability or time to join a coordinated raid group.
I started a new raid guild at the start of Cat and had no core raid group. I built my group up and had to bring pugs to fill us up for a long time but with determination and constant requirement we are now 6/7 HM in Firelands. It's not easy and that is what makes it fun and rewarding. The actual raiders that play to raid would grow bored quick if they nerfed encounters across the board and I'm not just talking about heroic progression guilds but normal progression guilds as well. I you are 1/7 FL and think that normal mode should be catered to you, no offense but you lack the ability to raid proper. But with he new LFR they are increasing accessibility so that everyone gets a chance to see the encounters. Enjoy the new difficulty level and stop trying to be a wet blanket for the raiders that are enjoying the new encounter difficulty level.
ObiChad Nov 6th 2011 1:16AM
Let me begin by saying congratulations. It's no easy feat to start a guild and get it raiding and keep it raiding. That you have done so is fantastic. Kudos.
That said, any of our discussions about difficulty have a tendency to fall into the "highway speed" trap. Anyone driving faster than us is crazy, and anyone driving slower than us is a moron. As a heroic mode raider, I'd be careful about judging the ability of 1/7 normal mode raiders that you called out.
One added point to that, if you look at the data for Firelands, its amazing to me how most of the front six bosses are fairly even in kill numbers. It seems to be if you can kill one of them, you can likely kill all six of them. However, comparing to the T11 numbers, there is a bit of a drop off.
As to the enjoy the new difficulty level comment, the trouble is if you are raiding 10 man currently. You're shit out of luck in that case if normal is too hard for you. Unless of course you want to try your hand at the random group generator. *shudder*
Gniven Nov 5th 2011 7:17PM
Sorry to be a wet blanket, but the people who enjoy the current raids are vastly outnumbered by the people that don't/can't participate. Vastly.
Why is that a problem? Because raiding is consuming large amounts of designer resources. Resources that can't be used on giving the big majority of players enjoyable content.
Mylozen Nov 6th 2011 5:10AM
I completely agree that there should be alternate content for nonraiders and nonpvpers at max level. I feel this is one area Blizzard has constantly failed. I think part of it is for the most part all progression is gear based which ultimately funnels us into either raiding or pvp. Azeroth is a massive world but we are mostly huddled in cities either waiting for a raid group or waiting for our dungeon or arena queues. While I am very happy with the current raid content I am ultimately unsatisfied with end game content. I pretty much log in to lead my raids, do transmutes and post auctions. There is just not much else to do that really is all the engaging. Sure there are achievements which are a fun distraction but they offer no real progression. I think pet battles is a great idea as it gives us something to do within Azeroth with progression but it is 't gear based. I'd love to see more of this type of stuff, minigolf at gallywix, boat races in 1000 needles, things spread around Azeroth to get us out of the damn cities and doing things.
DarkWalker Nov 5th 2011 8:09PM
I believe Blizzard is on the right track with the changes announced for MoP:
- WotLK-difficulty (and, hopefully, size) dungeons. Cata Heroic dungeons size and difficulty was what drove me out of the game.
- Other ways to earn VP (and, thus, gear good enough to get into a raid). PvE scenarios, dailies, challenges.
- All new raids available in the LFR. Given that LFR-version raids are meant to be done in a single session, I hope this also means each tier will be broken up in more, but smaller, raids.
- LFR raids at an easier difficulty level.
Little caveat, though: as long as the LFR version has all the lore, I don't care about the extra perks from doing the normal or hard versions at all. I would rather have some fun, (hopefully) stress-free time with an easy raid than see slight errors wiping the group repeatedly. Unless I get invited to some fixed raiding group doing normal or hard raids, and I feel like the group is actually capable of pulling it off without drama and with little frustration, I will stay on the LFR difficulty indefinitely.
What I would have also done:
- Challenge modes for raids, perhaps based on the heroic difficulty. With normalized gear, we would have a far better view of which group is really more skilled than server / world firsts can ever hope to provide. Plus, it would keep all raid content current for the best raid groups, as a top ladder score on any current expansion tier would be quite an achievement, given the gear normalization.
Perhaps even have the challenge modes instead of the hard mode. Instead of hard mode half tier of gear, those challenge modes could provide each player their pick of a single normal mode gear piece they wanted, plus cosmetic gear rewards akin to those from the dungeon challenge modes. This would reduce the gear inflation problem, to boot, and the ranked ladder should provide enough incentive to keep trying and improving even without better performing gear as a reward.
- A kind of GTFO/DBM/Recount hybrid added to the default UI, focused on telling each individual player what he did wrong and where he can improve. Turned on by default. Perhaps even impossible to toggle off for LFR-assembled groups.
- A far better iLvl check. Something that only allowed characters to queue for a specific spec if they had the right gear for that spec, properly enchanted and gemmed for the content they are queuing for. The current iLvl check is a bad joke.
- Repeatable single player challenges meant to teach players the basics of raiding with each role. With dailies giving VP, make them dailies and give VP according to the player performance. Perhaps also tie the ability to queue for the LFR to having completed the challenge for the selected role at least once.