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11-05-2011 @ 1:44PM
I find it ironic that so many people are complaining that they only want to run current content, and also that the current content is not an entry level raid. Sure, Kara was a great entry level raid. However, in the BC model, even if you started late in BC, you started in Kara, and then if you wanted to advance further you switched to 25-man guilds. In Wrath, that was no longer necessary. 10-man raids were available throughout the tiers. You didn't even have to gear up in Naxx to raid in Ulduar, ToC, or ICC, you could run heroics and buy emblem gear. I do think the Cata raids were a bit over-tuned for most people pre-nerf. However, at this point, they are the "entry level raids". If you're a new group of inexperienced raiders, there is no reason to go wipe incessantly in FL. Now that BWD/BOT have been nerfed, many of the mechanics will not outright kill someone or wipe a raid anymore. Once a group can regularly complete BOT and BWD, they will find a nice increase in challenge in FL, but it won't be the group-killer it can be without some level of experience. A fresh, inexperienced raid group should be able to complete BWD and BOT in a couple weeks, which will give them some confidence to go along with their learning.I really find it amazing that so many people figure they can't have fun if they aren't doing what the high-end raiders are doing. Do you think you should start running tomorrow by winning a marathon? Do you think you should pick up a bicycle today for the first time in years and be able to win a triathlon? Maybe you should pick up a football for the first time today and be winning the Superbowl tomorrow? You drive your car every day to work, to the store, etc. That gives you plenty of "experience", you should be able to hop into a race car and win anywhere, right?If you think about what it takes to be at the upper levels of *any* competitive activity, you'll see that not everyone can do it. Some don't have the time, some don't have the ability, and some don't have the willpower. The fact that there is a competitive activity embedded in WoW doesn't mean that everyone should be able to be at the top of it. Blizzard has made *huge* leaps in accessibility. I started rather late in BC, and I didn't see "LFM SWP boss run" in trade, and you had to be pretty geared to get into SWP trash runs. At this point, it's not difficult to find a FL boss pug doing at least 3/7. Lots of casual guilds are 6/7, and even though they may not be able to kill Ragnaros, they can at least see it. How many people were able to even see Kil'jaeden in BC?For all the talk about Wrath being faceroll, how many made it past Mimiron in Ulduar when it was current? How many even saw Mimiron when it was current? I'd bet there are a lot more people seeing Majordomo Staghelm now, while it's current, than saw Mimiron while it was current. And that was in Wrath, the "faceroll" expansion.
11-05-2011 @ 3:06PM
A couple of things here.Certainly Tier 11 is easier now than it was due to the nerf, but that took six months. What you suggest is fine now, but many people I raided with got fed up enough before that, that they have stopped playing. So while it MAY not be an issue now, it was then, and that's part of what we are discussing. If what Blizzard is promoting is a mix of the Wrath and BC raiding model, that's fine, but that didn't exist during Tier 11. Also, considering they are introducing an new raid difficulty level in 4.3 (LFR tool) I'm not really sure that's what they are saying the model really is."I really find it amazing that so many people figure they can't have fun if they aren't doing what the high-end raiders are doing." - For me this is why I though there was normal mode and heroic mode. Let the high end raiders do heroic and the rest of us raiders do normal.As to the level of difficulty of T11 currently, is it accessible? I'm not sure. I still feel like I could get a new person through more fights in ICC (even pre raid buff) than I could get them through in T11. Having done this recently with someone who hadn't raided, they quickly go overwhelmed with everything that was going on and told me they weren't likely to do it again. That's only one experience so it's hard to build an argument from it, but it's the only data point I have."For all the talk about Wrath being faceroll, how many made it past Mimiron in Ulduar when it was current? How many even saw Mimiron when it was current? I'd bet there are a lot more people seeing Majordomo Staghelm now, while it's current, than saw Mimiron while it was current. And that was in Wrath, the "faceroll" expansion." - Hmm, I wonder. From the data on Firelands it looks like a third or so of T11 raiders stopped raiding, or at least haven't been able to down any FL bosses. So I'm not certainly what you are saying is the case. Also remember Ulduar when current didn't have the raid id extend option so any guild with limited time had a hard time progressing all the way to Yogg (this was certainly an issue in my guild.) As to the Wrath faceroll talk, I've always thought that gets overblown due to a number of factors, Naxx25 being severely undertuned, 10s being tuned a tier lower than 25s, the ICC stacking raid buff, and the model of "only the recent tier is current".
11-05-2011 @ 3:22PM
"I find it ironic that so many people are complaining that they only want to run current content, and also that the current content is not an entry level raid.""Current" content is content that lets you advance your character. The system is set up now that you do this by running the most advanced raid or random dungeons. This means that all players are funneled in to each raid, regardless of experience. If there's only one tier, and you want new raiders, then every raid needs to have some content that's accessible to new players.There are a lot of ways of changing the system so that this isn't necessarily true, and you can have "hard" and "easy" raids. If, e.g., you made it so that you only could earn valor points running raids, the now nerfed T11 would become "current" again, much like Kara remained as a popular introduction to raiding throughout most of BC. BC, though, brought along it's own share of problems in terms of accessibility. In Wrath, Naxx stayed fairly relevant throughout the life of Ulduar because there was no real gear reset in 4.1. It was ToC that really started the movement towards obsoleting all content every tier. It worked out okay in Wrath, however, because ToC and ICC both had content that was friendly to new players.It's important to keep in mind, though, that when people (or at least me) talk about the inaccessibility of raids it's not an issue of feeling entitled to beat every encounter in the game without work, it's making sure there's relevant content there for everyone. I did beat Mimiron when he was current (and Yogg too), but I also wiped on Morose for two weeks when I first started playing with a group of similarly new payers. If we had to fight ODS as my first fight I'm pretty sure we would have said, eighty wipes later, "Raiding isn't for us." Without a constant influx of new raiders, all raiding guilds will eventually die to attrition.This, incidentally, is why I really think LFR is going to hurt raiding more than it helps. While it creates a space where anyone can raid, if LFD is any example it's going to be horribly unwelcoming to new players. 24 random strangers don't want to wipe, even once, while a new player learns raid awareness. Instead, the player will get kicked over a few objections, and they'll come out of the situation thinking, "I'm just not good enough for this." All the while, recruitment becomes even harder...
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