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All of the latest Mists of Pandaria newsArcane Brilliance: Adventures with and observations on the Raid Finder
by Christian Belt 
Nov 5th 2011 at 10:00PM
I have to admit: Nothing in patch 4.3 excites me as much as the Raid Finder. Not transmogrification, not the Deathwing raid, not the fact that we're drawing ever closer to me being able to roll a Pandaren kung fu mage. Nope, I'm excited about the Raid Finder.
There was a time during my WoW career when I was able to adjust my schedule around my guild's raid nights, but that time hasn't really existed for some time now. My family has grown, my work responsibilities have grown, and my WoW time has become increasingly limited and far more unreliable. I play when I can play these days, and it's nigh impossible to plan a raid schedule around that. I'd wager I'm not alone in this.
So the idea of being able to see much of the same endgame content and gear up enough to help my guild on my own schedule much the same way I gear up through 5-mans now ... that just thrills me to death.
But putting together a 25-man raid is an exponentially more complex endeavor than simply throwing together a 5-man run. How does this Raid Finder tool function in practice? Well, I've taken my mage to the PTR, and I've tested it out for myself. And I'm here to tell you:
It totally works. And it totally doesn't.
The Raid Finder will totally find you a raid
First things first. As a tool to locate 24 other well-geared players to fill a raid or as a tool to fill a few empty spots in your guild's raid, the Raid Finder performs as advertised. You can absolutely take your lonely mage, queue him for a raid, and be coupled with 24 raid-mates in a matter of minutes. On the PTR, with a limited playerbase (but one which I assume is extremely interested in testing out this new functionality), my mage was finding raids in 10 minutes or less, a far shorter wait than he has on the live realms for 5-mans.
It's tremendously convenient, user-friendly -- and even in the early stages of testing, almost seamless. I encountered the occasional disconnect, but by and large, the Raid Finder will find you a raid, and fast. We'll see how it holds up when millions of players are using it, but it seems like the framework is solid.
The system generally puts together a balanced raid. The gear requirements are fairly steep, ensuring nobody comes in undergeared. The setup selects two tanks, six healers, and 17 damage dealers, and it analyzes gear to try and provide a good mix of melee and ranged DPS. What you end up with, most of the time, is a reasonably varied selection of the parts you need to organize a raid.
The trouble generally starts once you're safely in and ready to start downing bosses.
Lack of leadership
When queuing, you can select whether or not you want to be a raid leader, and the system automatically chooses one of those brave individuals to be the actual leader of these 25 disparate personalities. The problem is that oftentimes, that guy -- the one who just a few minutes earlier clicked a box agreeing to be a raid leader -- is in no way prepared to be an actual raid leader.
The first raid leader I got proceeded to lead us in absolute, serial-killer silence. I could hear him breathing over voice chat ... at least I think that was him ... but he was otherwise completely mute. Being a raid leader is far more complicated than being the dungeon leader in a 5-man. There are things you need to do. And there is absolutely no prerequisite for clicking that Yes, I want to lead this raid button. You do not have to have raided before. You do not have to know the fights. You do not have to have the capacity for verbal communication. You do not have to have opposable thumbs.
And once you get into the raid and discover that your raid leader is a mouth-breathing sociopath -- or even worse, a warlock -- there is no way to replace him. This is a problem.
It's a simple fix, though, and Blizzard has ample testing time left to address it. Just give us a way to vote on a new raid leader once the raid is formed.
Lack of ability to be led
Though having a bad leader is a crippling blow to any raid, a far more difficult problem to control is the sad fact that a vast majority of players don't seem to be able to listen to a good one. Putting 25 random players together reveals a sad fact: As a playerbase, we simply don't know how to listen or follow simple instructions. It's bad enough when you have an experienced guild and a raid of people who respect each other. Now imagine that those 25 people don't know each other, will never see each other again, and have as their primary motivation some quick loot before their guild run starts in an hour.
I've been in some bad PUG raids before. But prior to trying the Raid Finder, I have never before witnessed such a green-tinged cloud of simultaneous brain-farting as I have in the past week. It's truly disturbing. Mass fire-standing. Pulling before the raid is set up, wiping, then pulling early again. Repeated failure to grasp even the simplest mechanics of a fairly basic fight. People going AFK without telling anyone. Tanks going AFK in the middle of the fight.
I honestly don't know how to address this issue. These are generally well-meaning people who appear to lack the ability or motivation to be lead. It's an issue that exists on the live realms but is brought into sharp focus in this new raid system. I'm hoping that over time, the community will self-regulate itself to the point where this is less of a glaring issue.
A vote-kick system that's far too limited
The current system for vote-kicking folk on the PTR is limited in the same ways it's limited in the 5-man Dungeon Finder. Which is to say, way, way too limited.
When you get the troll who thinks it's funny to repeatedly pull the boss before everybody's ready, or the tank who simply cannot do his job, or the healer who insists on wearing DPS gear, or the 12-year-old racist who can't control his Vent outbursts, or the AFK warlock on follow, or the raid leader who won't lead the raid, or the guy in Russia who is apparently playing WoW on a TI-86 calculator over a satellite phone connection ... You need to be able to kick that guy, and you need to be able to do it quickly.
This isn't a 5-man dungeon run, where three douchebags can queue together and kick anybody they like. This is a vote-kick that requires a majority of 25 people. I firmly believe the vote kick for the Raid Finder should be basically unlimited. When the community can rid itself of the idiots without having to sit out a DCed tank through a 5-minute mandatory wait period or having to endure the 5-man group of trolls who queued together due to limitations on how often you can kick people, I believe a great many of the issues we're seeing on the PTR will diminish.
This is probably the single most vital change that needs to happen before this tool goes live. Unlimited kicking.
And now to try to end on a positive note ...
I've focused on the negatives, but holy crap, am I still excited for this thing! Once some of the leadership/douchebag player kinks have been worked out, this is still a fantastic new way to experience amazing content. By and large, my mage was getting quick groups, and then he was able to experience a toned-down version of the most difficult content in the game with a group of strangers. You still have to be good, and you still have to do your job, but this also provides an opportunity for you to raid how you like without worrying as much about what your guild raid setup needs, what spec you're expected to assume, and what kind of loot your guild leader's girlfriend will ninja from everybody on this run.
The content appears to be tuned so that even a less-than-ideal grouping will be able to succeed. The loot is excellent if not completely top-tier. The fights still need to be learned, but the Dungeon Journal helps alleviate some of the ignorance, if you can get people to actually take a second and read the entries provided therein. I was able to enter a raid, do my job, and feel a sense of accomplishment when we finally downed the boss. The interface is very intuitive and well designed. It's the players who generally screw it up for everybody.
Other things I'd like to see added include:
- Overwhelming incentives to finish the raid. It needs to be something that will motivate even the most flaky among us to stick things out and keep those with the urge to grief in line long enough to get their goodies at the end.
- A rating system for players. I understand this could be abused, but that could be controlled with some thoughtful limitations. If players know they have a permanent reputation rating that other players can see, perhaps they'll be less inclined to be asshats. This would not necessarily be limited to the Raid Finder, and it would probably take quite a bit of work to institute properly.
- The difficulty level is probably about right, but if the problems with the playerbase aren't addressed, it may need to be tweaked even lower, or else nobody will be finishing these raids.
- I want long, long deserter debuffs for those who drop early and shorter debuffs for those who get themselves kicked. I want a massive disincentive for quitting and at least some for being a twerp and getting yourself kicked. I understand that there will be some who get kicked for no good reason, but with a 25-man majority vote required, this shouldn't happen very often, and the debuff should be of relatively short duration so that those who do get kicked unnecessarily won't have to suffer much. The deserter debuff for the Raid Finder currently only applies to queuing for the actual Raid Finder, so those with the debuff can still queue for other things.
- Voice chat enabled automatically upon entering the raid. Getting 25 random people on Vent is simply a mess. But voice chat is just too important to have. There's a default system, imperfect though it may be, and we might as well use it. You'd still have the odd soul who either doesn't have a microphone or doesn't want to use voice chat for whatever reason, but as long as the majority of the raid is able to speak to each other, things should go much more smoothly.
The important thing to focus on, I believe, is this: With the Raid Finder, if you want to raid in World of Warcraft, you totally can. That's big.
Every week, Arcane Brilliance teleports you inside the wonderful world of mages and then hurls a Fireball in your face. Start out with our recent beginner's guide to being a mage, then check out our three-part State of the Mage columns on arcane, fire and frost. Don't forget to look at some of the addons your mage should probably be using.Filed under: Mage, Analysis / Opinion, (Mage) Arcane Brilliance
Reader Comments (Page 2 of 7)
Gniver Nov 6th 2011 8:57AM
Let just realize that having a microphone it is not requirement for playing WoW, or queuing up for the LFR, and that therefore the super majority of players don't have one.
Lee Weaver Nov 6th 2011 11:51AM
Sam has it right. you shouldn't have to dance. just kill the boss. These gimmick fights are not fun. killing the boss and getting the loot is. Heck it's shouldn't even require more than 1 tank. all fights should follow this pattern. A. tank runs in and agros the boss, he now has agro and can't loose it unless he dies. B. dps proceeds to kill the boss... Heals keep the tank alive and heal any aoe damage to the raid. done. no stupid dancing moving round. none of that. I can see having to position a boss so he doesn't breath on the raid or something, but having to switch tanks, and all this crap is not fun.
Kurash Nov 6th 2011 11:59AM
@ Lee Weaver
So... every fight is supposed to be a tank & spank, with no movement? I'm not a super big fan of the Heigan dance, but what you propose sounds pretty boring and un-fun.
Lee Weaver Nov 6th 2011 12:37PM
@Kurash
What can I say... You are Wrong! the fun in in the getting of stuff not beating your head against a brick wall and wiping 15 times on a boss because the dev's thought it would be cool to add a Gimmick. the fun is in seeint the boss go down. not in how he got there.
Something I forgot in my first post. these raids that take forever to run are for the birds bring the raids like Obsidian Sanctum and Ruby Sanctum. jsut get rid of the gimmicks in those and they would be perfect
Kurash Nov 6th 2011 1:17PM
So all you care about is the loot, then? I gotta say that, while everyone is entitled to play how they want, that seems odd to me. The experience is what makes it fun. Sure, the feeling you get when a boss bites the dust is great, but a large part of what makes it great is that it was *challenging*. If each fight is simple then the sense of accomplishment is correspondingly smaller. And, unlike you I guess, loot is not the be-all-end-all for me. It's nice to have nice gear, but what color its name is doesn't matter much to me as long as I can work together with a raid group and do my job adequately.
Skarn Nov 6th 2011 4:30PM
I'm not prone to hyperbole, so know that I mean this:
I vehemently disagree with Lee Weaver. We could not possibly be more different if we tried.
I hope he's a troll because the proposal of "all bosses should be just tank it" is utterly ridiculous. I would absolutely drop out of raiding if that was the case, it would be so incredibly boring and dull.
Fortunately, I'm quite certain you are in the vast, vast minority Lee. I never say this, but if there is anyone that I want Blizzard to drive off, it's you. This game really is NOT for you, go find something else.
Gniver Nov 6th 2011 5:08PM
I don't think Lee Weaver is in a tiny minority. I certainly get tired myself of "interesting mechanics" and "Super Mario mini-games" often enough.
Remember that WoW IS a pure spank game from level 1-85. Now I know that many raiders like to pretend that the game starts at 85. But it doesn't.
Not from a philosophical standpoint: the spank-away levelling game is the first thing a player encounters, and it is the biggest part of WoW by far.
And not from an economic standpoint: the subscriptions from the ordinary players help finance the non-stop raiding development. The raiders are too few to finance it themselves.
Lee Weaver Nov 6th 2011 7:08PM
I'm not a troll, here is a bit of where I'm coming from. Speaking from the standpoint of fun, if the game is a PITA it's not fun. Why isn't it seen as fun to see if you can kill the boss before he kills you? Maybe for the tanks it may not be the most engaging, but Blizz is working on that making you take a part in your own survival. For the record I Play all classes and have every class at least to 60 2 tanks at 85 a warrior and a DK. I have a mage at 85, and my main is a Boomkin with off-spec tree at 85 so I have "Done it all". I am currently actively leveling the 6 other classes and all are in the 60's the Pally is tanking, and the Priest and Shaman are healing. I participate in all roles of the game. But I rarely raid since currently it requires entirely too much of a time investment that you need to commit to a schedule for. I play the game for enjoyment, not for it to take on the aspects of a second job. If Raid design is fixed such that a random group of strangers without communications can manage it, (without doing a Dance Dance Revolution impression) then the raid finder will be a godsend for a huge group of players. Remember that a very small percentage of players currently see raids when they are current. most have to wait until they out gear them to go back and see them and can then ignore the asinine gimmicks.
Quark1020 Nov 6th 2011 9:57PM
Why not get gear for how long you auto attack a target dummy? At least you don't have to compete for gear. /sarcasm
Liyly Nov 5th 2011 10:22PM
"A rating system for players."
Please, this. With the advent of the random dungeon finder, there is no longer any cost or concern for keeping up one's reputation, and I think players have taken less responsibility to be 'good' as a result. I don't have any great ideas on what our reputation could be based, but I do wish there were a way that simply being a consistent, trusted, and decent player could be made clear to others for the benefit of all.
Good points and great write-up, thanks!
llcjay2003 Nov 5th 2011 10:34PM
Something I thought of could be stats on percentage of instances completed while using the DF or RF. It would provide an *objective* number that could give you an indication of a potential problem.
I know people can get unlucky with groups, but if you use the finder enough, you will finish more than you do not.
Lsprof4 Nov 5th 2011 10:53PM
Agreed.
Poltergeist Nov 5th 2011 10:52PM
I always envisioned a passive rating system that works as follows...anytime you are the group leader...and only the group leader....should you be vote kicked from a group or disconnect from a run, your 'leader' rating goes down by one. Anytime you're in a run (again, as lead) where the final boss of an instance dies, your 'leader' rating goes up.
Should your rating go negative, you're not allowed to check off group lead on anything you queue for a period of time until your rating slowly resets back to zero. The player with the highest rating will get group lead each time.
This would pretty much ensure that the players with the highest success rates wind up in control of the groups. It's also passive since it rates players based on empirical numbers ...their "win/loss" ratio if you will ...and not some voting mechanic that can possibly be manipulated by players with an agenda.
Arrohon Nov 5th 2011 11:04PM
Do you mean that no one would check a leader box, but the game would choose? If so, it makes getting leader points difficult. What are the chances that at least one of 24 other people have more points? If just one does, you're not the leader and don't get a point for that run.
Arrohon Nov 5th 2011 11:23PM
I thought of a bit of a solution to the problem I found. Only the raid finder auto-chooses the leader. You can still choose to be the leader in the dungeon finder and get points that way. You can also get points for being the leader in a non-raid finder raid.
Liyly Nov 5th 2011 11:24PM
That seems like a pretty safe system for determining leadership, Poltergeist. I like it and it seems like it wouldn't be easily abused.
For the purposes of random groupings (raid, dungeon, or otherwise) you want players who:
-do their role adequately and dependably (adequate damage, survive as a tank, etc)
-don't hold up the group (afk-ing, being the sole cause of a wipe)
-communicate adequately
-take direction and obey
-know what is expected of them in the fight
Thus, reputation for the dungeon or raid finder would need to somehow reflect these criteria. In essence, players need to know the fights, have sufficient gear and skill to perform their roles, and then be willing to work together and be invested in the group's effort.
I think a combination of details about our characters that are already tracked (average item level, spec, times kicked or left a random group, and number of boss kills) can already give a fairly accurate prediction of a character's ability in a random raid. This can probably be expanded with other data to give a 'reputation' level (or leadership ability level in the case of raid leading).
For instance, adequate communication and knowledge of the fight are hard to predict using the data I listed in the above paragraph. Those could be ensured by requiring players to have the default (or other) voice chat system on and functioning. Fight knowledge could also be ensured by requiring players to maybe read the dungeon journal on the boss or something.
It wouldn't be a perfect system, but something along these lines could go along way to making everyone happier I think.
Fawatam Nov 6th 2011 1:16AM
My biggest concern with a rating system would be that the only time it would get used is when someone wants to report someone, and even then most of the time it'd be some moron continuing his d-baggery. The problem comes down to lack of motivation. It's much more satisfying to report a bad player, but over time most people will quickly get lazy enough to not even bother reporting the good ones.
Secondly, let's say a player has a poor rating. With the RDF and RRF, we wouldn't know until after they joined the group anyways, and by then, it will be too late to do much and would pretty much defeat the purpose anyways.
With all that said, I would love a system in place, but it's something that would certainly need a lot of time and consideration to ensure the system was accurate, easy to use, and not enough of a burden that people just ignore it completely.
Micheal Nov 5th 2011 10:41PM
I'm mostly curious if anyone has been in a LFR group that managed to kill a boss...
zomby_wc3 Nov 5th 2011 11:11PM
I've been trying the LFR out over the last few days. Tried 3 different boss' so far. Hagara - Ultraxion and Madness of Deathwing. The easier boss by far is Deathwing : /
No mechanics that require planning, strategy or coordination.
I've spend HOURS on Hagara waiting for the LFR to give us new players after we wiped and half the raid left. Then explaining the fight to the new players while we kick the d/c'd players. Waiting again for more players... Explaining the fight again to the 3 new players and then realizing that 2 others have gone afk - having to kick them and re-explain the fight again to the new players we get in. Throughout all this i'm praying that someone doesn't get impatient and- oh look... The tank pulled. We wipe - half the raid leaves and i start all over.
Ultraxion is easier than Hagara: All thats required is you press a button at a certain time - that's quite large and sitting in the middle of your screen. But no this is LFR - people cant push a button.
Scott Nov 5th 2011 10:25PM
I tested the Raid finder yesterday, but it didn't matter too much with the hunter pets one-shotting the bosses. Hell, it was so bad that the fight on Deathwings back was impossible because the scripts couldn't keep up with the kills. Hopefully they fixed that though by now.