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All of the latest Mists of Pandaria newsArcane Brilliance: Adventures with and observations on the Raid Finder
by Christian Belt 
Nov 5th 2011 at 10:00PM
I have to admit: Nothing in patch 4.3 excites me as much as the Raid Finder. Not transmogrification, not the Deathwing raid, not the fact that we're drawing ever closer to me being able to roll a Pandaren kung fu mage. Nope, I'm excited about the Raid Finder.
There was a time during my WoW career when I was able to adjust my schedule around my guild's raid nights, but that time hasn't really existed for some time now. My family has grown, my work responsibilities have grown, and my WoW time has become increasingly limited and far more unreliable. I play when I can play these days, and it's nigh impossible to plan a raid schedule around that. I'd wager I'm not alone in this.
So the idea of being able to see much of the same endgame content and gear up enough to help my guild on my own schedule much the same way I gear up through 5-mans now ... that just thrills me to death.
But putting together a 25-man raid is an exponentially more complex endeavor than simply throwing together a 5-man run. How does this Raid Finder tool function in practice? Well, I've taken my mage to the PTR, and I've tested it out for myself. And I'm here to tell you:
It totally works. And it totally doesn't.
The Raid Finder will totally find you a raid
First things first. As a tool to locate 24 other well-geared players to fill a raid or as a tool to fill a few empty spots in your guild's raid, the Raid Finder performs as advertised. You can absolutely take your lonely mage, queue him for a raid, and be coupled with 24 raid-mates in a matter of minutes. On the PTR, with a limited playerbase (but one which I assume is extremely interested in testing out this new functionality), my mage was finding raids in 10 minutes or less, a far shorter wait than he has on the live realms for 5-mans.
It's tremendously convenient, user-friendly -- and even in the early stages of testing, almost seamless. I encountered the occasional disconnect, but by and large, the Raid Finder will find you a raid, and fast. We'll see how it holds up when millions of players are using it, but it seems like the framework is solid.
The system generally puts together a balanced raid. The gear requirements are fairly steep, ensuring nobody comes in undergeared. The setup selects two tanks, six healers, and 17 damage dealers, and it analyzes gear to try and provide a good mix of melee and ranged DPS. What you end up with, most of the time, is a reasonably varied selection of the parts you need to organize a raid.
The trouble generally starts once you're safely in and ready to start downing bosses.
Lack of leadership
When queuing, you can select whether or not you want to be a raid leader, and the system automatically chooses one of those brave individuals to be the actual leader of these 25 disparate personalities. The problem is that oftentimes, that guy -- the one who just a few minutes earlier clicked a box agreeing to be a raid leader -- is in no way prepared to be an actual raid leader.
The first raid leader I got proceeded to lead us in absolute, serial-killer silence. I could hear him breathing over voice chat ... at least I think that was him ... but he was otherwise completely mute. Being a raid leader is far more complicated than being the dungeon leader in a 5-man. There are things you need to do. And there is absolutely no prerequisite for clicking that Yes, I want to lead this raid button. You do not have to have raided before. You do not have to know the fights. You do not have to have the capacity for verbal communication. You do not have to have opposable thumbs.
And once you get into the raid and discover that your raid leader is a mouth-breathing sociopath -- or even worse, a warlock -- there is no way to replace him. This is a problem.
It's a simple fix, though, and Blizzard has ample testing time left to address it. Just give us a way to vote on a new raid leader once the raid is formed.
Lack of ability to be led
Though having a bad leader is a crippling blow to any raid, a far more difficult problem to control is the sad fact that a vast majority of players don't seem to be able to listen to a good one. Putting 25 random players together reveals a sad fact: As a playerbase, we simply don't know how to listen or follow simple instructions. It's bad enough when you have an experienced guild and a raid of people who respect each other. Now imagine that those 25 people don't know each other, will never see each other again, and have as their primary motivation some quick loot before their guild run starts in an hour.
I've been in some bad PUG raids before. But prior to trying the Raid Finder, I have never before witnessed such a green-tinged cloud of simultaneous brain-farting as I have in the past week. It's truly disturbing. Mass fire-standing. Pulling before the raid is set up, wiping, then pulling early again. Repeated failure to grasp even the simplest mechanics of a fairly basic fight. People going AFK without telling anyone. Tanks going AFK in the middle of the fight.
I honestly don't know how to address this issue. These are generally well-meaning people who appear to lack the ability or motivation to be lead. It's an issue that exists on the live realms but is brought into sharp focus in this new raid system. I'm hoping that over time, the community will self-regulate itself to the point where this is less of a glaring issue.
A vote-kick system that's far too limited
The current system for vote-kicking folk on the PTR is limited in the same ways it's limited in the 5-man Dungeon Finder. Which is to say, way, way too limited.
When you get the troll who thinks it's funny to repeatedly pull the boss before everybody's ready, or the tank who simply cannot do his job, or the healer who insists on wearing DPS gear, or the 12-year-old racist who can't control his Vent outbursts, or the AFK warlock on follow, or the raid leader who won't lead the raid, or the guy in Russia who is apparently playing WoW on a TI-86 calculator over a satellite phone connection ... You need to be able to kick that guy, and you need to be able to do it quickly.
This isn't a 5-man dungeon run, where three douchebags can queue together and kick anybody they like. This is a vote-kick that requires a majority of 25 people. I firmly believe the vote kick for the Raid Finder should be basically unlimited. When the community can rid itself of the idiots without having to sit out a DCed tank through a 5-minute mandatory wait period or having to endure the 5-man group of trolls who queued together due to limitations on how often you can kick people, I believe a great many of the issues we're seeing on the PTR will diminish.
This is probably the single most vital change that needs to happen before this tool goes live. Unlimited kicking.
And now to try to end on a positive note ...
I've focused on the negatives, but holy crap, am I still excited for this thing! Once some of the leadership/douchebag player kinks have been worked out, this is still a fantastic new way to experience amazing content. By and large, my mage was getting quick groups, and then he was able to experience a toned-down version of the most difficult content in the game with a group of strangers. You still have to be good, and you still have to do your job, but this also provides an opportunity for you to raid how you like without worrying as much about what your guild raid setup needs, what spec you're expected to assume, and what kind of loot your guild leader's girlfriend will ninja from everybody on this run.
The content appears to be tuned so that even a less-than-ideal grouping will be able to succeed. The loot is excellent if not completely top-tier. The fights still need to be learned, but the Dungeon Journal helps alleviate some of the ignorance, if you can get people to actually take a second and read the entries provided therein. I was able to enter a raid, do my job, and feel a sense of accomplishment when we finally downed the boss. The interface is very intuitive and well designed. It's the players who generally screw it up for everybody.
Other things I'd like to see added include:
- Overwhelming incentives to finish the raid. It needs to be something that will motivate even the most flaky among us to stick things out and keep those with the urge to grief in line long enough to get their goodies at the end.
- A rating system for players. I understand this could be abused, but that could be controlled with some thoughtful limitations. If players know they have a permanent reputation rating that other players can see, perhaps they'll be less inclined to be asshats. This would not necessarily be limited to the Raid Finder, and it would probably take quite a bit of work to institute properly.
- The difficulty level is probably about right, but if the problems with the playerbase aren't addressed, it may need to be tweaked even lower, or else nobody will be finishing these raids.
- I want long, long deserter debuffs for those who drop early and shorter debuffs for those who get themselves kicked. I want a massive disincentive for quitting and at least some for being a twerp and getting yourself kicked. I understand that there will be some who get kicked for no good reason, but with a 25-man majority vote required, this shouldn't happen very often, and the debuff should be of relatively short duration so that those who do get kicked unnecessarily won't have to suffer much. The deserter debuff for the Raid Finder currently only applies to queuing for the actual Raid Finder, so those with the debuff can still queue for other things.
- Voice chat enabled automatically upon entering the raid. Getting 25 random people on Vent is simply a mess. But voice chat is just too important to have. There's a default system, imperfect though it may be, and we might as well use it. You'd still have the odd soul who either doesn't have a microphone or doesn't want to use voice chat for whatever reason, but as long as the majority of the raid is able to speak to each other, things should go much more smoothly.
The important thing to focus on, I believe, is this: With the Raid Finder, if you want to raid in World of Warcraft, you totally can. That's big.
Every week, Arcane Brilliance teleports you inside the wonderful world of mages and then hurls a Fireball in your face. Start out with our recent beginner's guide to being a mage, then check out our three-part State of the Mage columns on arcane, fire and frost. Don't forget to look at some of the addons your mage should probably be using.Filed under: Mage, Analysis / Opinion, (Mage) Arcane Brilliance
Reader Comments (Page 4 of 7)
venslor Nov 6th 2011 1:29AM
did you seriously suggest that standing in fires shouldn't hurt? If you're a level 85, and geared sufficiently to make it into a raid, if you're STILL standing in the fires after all this time, I should be able to go to your actual house and set it on fire. DO NOT STAND IN FIRE = WoW rule like #1!
omedon666 Nov 6th 2011 1:37AM
I fully agree that that is rule#1 in "the WoW we know", but, looking at LFR as a "fix" to "The WoW we know", I wonder just how many sacred cows they are willing to slaughter for the sake of inclusion, accessibility, and storytelling.
Indeed, your very response to people standing in fire only supports my point: some of the people that will use this feature will be learning "rule #1" for the first time. If you're going to get that angry when it happens... then doesn't it make sense that, since it is GOING to happen, that it doesn't cripple *your* chances at loot, since the person perpetrating the "newness" (and what a horrible crime that is, I know :P ) has no reason to think of you intheir own learning experience, or even to stick around for another attempt? Remember, it doesn't even take opposable thumbs to queue.
I'm not saying either way is *the way*, I fully beleive (as you'll read in my other comment) that this is a bandaid to last until they open VPs right the hell up, and the only people raiding will be those that want to.
I'm only thinking in your best interests, Mr/Ms raider elite ;)
Whig Nov 5th 2011 11:51PM
Yes, I have killed bosses on the LFR.
It's not easy, it takes patience. A totally different kind of patience than raiding a hard boss. Patience like it takes to finish the damn troll heroic when no one will stand in the chains.
It's not easy to admit to ourselves how many twelve years olds, thimbleheads, neo-facists and clowns play this games that we love. The raid finder makes them unavoidable.
But it's worth it. You have to blow off a lot of chaff, but eventually a group will form that can donte job. For me, the first boss took 90 min and maybe six wipes from actual attempts. Others less, once the group was together. Spine of deathwing, which has truly simple mechanics, proved too much for 3 hours worth of different groups last night.
This is going to be much better on live, but the vote kick system needs the suggested changes.
Minstrel Nov 5th 2011 11:48PM
I'd like to see a reputation system (for both dungeons and raids) that has an automatic and player-input system. The automatic system would up-vote players for bosses killed. The player-input system would give players the option to up-vote teammates they thought were good to play with. No down-votes. That eliminates the griefing aspect ("Oh, you don't appreciate my racism? Down-voting you") but still provides some framework for seeing people who are better to play with.
Ultimately, people with higher ratings could be preferred for spots by the raid/dungeon finder or (my preference) you can set a minimum threshold of your own rep level for what teammates you want (which may extend your wait time, but may ensure a better run).
Just some thoughts, which could be improved upon I'm sure.
Boobah Nov 6th 2011 12:35AM
You'd need some sort of decay, both because people's attitudes change over time, and because otherwise those with more /played time will end up on top in a system without any penalties.
And the decay is... tricky. Should it decay every time you start an instance? Weekly? And if weekly, how do you deal with the difference in the amount of time people have to play? The misanthrope who has time to complete six dungeons a week while driving off the other players and failing ten more, vs. the person who doesn't usually have time for more than one a week, but consistently gets upvoted by the few he does play with?
Grendalsh Nov 6th 2011 3:05PM
Glad to know I'm not the only one who thinks this would be a beneficial system. Positive behavior feedback loops are a proven method.
I have like 3 pages of design notes I've been toying with. The short form is that players could up-rate other players for being good players, but only in the LFG/LFR system, and not for fellow guildmates. Each player would accumulate a total number of upvotes and opportunities for up-votes, and a percentage of the last 100 opportunities. Votes would be by role, including leader, so learning a new role (ie dps) wouldn't negatively impact a high rating in another role.
This would be tied in with a system of achievements and titles per role, so you could earn a 'Shield Wall' title for being rated as a good tank, or 'Commander' for having a high leader ratio. The titles could then be visual in-game identifiers that someone knows their role.
There are a lot of usage loopholes that would still need to be addressed.
Kendro Nov 6th 2011 12:01AM
The vote kick thing does need to get fixed, another thing that needs to get fixed imo is the only get access to boss loot once ordeal.
You're running through with pugs, no lockout timers, and you need an incentive to stay. A major incentive to stay is if instead of only see each boss drop loot only once a week, it was changed to only getting loot off a boss once a week. Once you get loot off a boss, you can't get access to any further drops from him that week. That puts the system somewhat back in line with the old pug raids for UBRS, LBRS, Scholo and UD Strat. Granted you could get loot from a boss more than once a week, but it was unlikely. The system also encouraged you to go back if something you wanted didn't drop.
All I see with the current system Blizzard has in place is that people will try it out for the first month, get sorely frustrated between not getting what they want due to the lockout mechanics and getting trolled or carrying people who have no right to be in a raid, or grouping with other people.
omedon666 Nov 6th 2011 12:13AM
"All I see with the current system Blizzard has in place is that people will try it out for the first month, get sorely frustrated between not getting what they want due to the lockout mechanics and getting trolled or carrying people who have no right to be in a raid, or grouping with other people."
I don't think you're wrong, I DO think that Blizz knows this, and, much like the LFD, will accept this, as their ass is covered on the "automated access mode" front.
LFR is the ultimate disclaimer in "you *could* see it this way... or you can be sociable and make friends", and I believe the latter is always intended to be the intended iteration of raid content. It's a bandaid to hold off until MoP brings in all the "you don't have to raid to get VP capped" options, and then the only people raiding at all will be the people that want to... and everyone wins.
omedon666 Nov 6th 2011 12:18AM
In short, the LFR experience, like LFD, is "allowed to suck"... as a way to herd people into their own groups... but only until quest VP, and scenarios give the "raiding because they feel they have to, not because they want to" crowd an offramp from raiding.
Miz Nov 6th 2011 1:45AM
"LFR is the ultimate disclaimer in "you *could* see it this way... or you can be sociable and make friends"
I have to strongly disagree with this. Sociability and raiding are two entirely different fishfood. Most people aren't restrained from raiding because they are antisocial. Actually, I don't think being antisocial has ever stopped anyone with loads of free time from raiding.
The problem most people face is the lack of time, it's the lack of ability to schedule half the week's evenings to raiding. Some of our professional and social lives simply don't allow it.
It's more like "If you cannot dedicate the amount of time demanded in order to experience the raid content, then you can go with that...".
It would be fantastic if being sociable were all that's required to raid, but it isn't.
omedon666 Nov 6th 2011 1:54AM
Miz (AWESOME name by the way ;) ) I agree that sociability isn't the only barrier to raiding, I meant it more in a general "making yourself available" (which, yes, many of us, myself included, have grown out of, with the requirements of adult life) sense.
You have to admit, though, in the current incarnation of WoW, there are so many tools at the "really really want to raid" player's disposal to enable it: automated guild recruitment, server transfers, faction transfers. If someone only hae three hours a week, they could, with a little homework, line those three hours up with 24 other people. In light of this, the raid finder is "allowed to suck", since the alternative has "been made so available".
Should players have to jump through all those hoops to stop relying on LFR? I don't think so, (I am captain "kill co-dependency" here) but until MoP hits,raiding is the singular PvE endgame road, and once the 4.3 era has passed, the raid finder will have largely played its part, IMO. In this context, the decay of LFR is allowed to sink into planned obsolesence.
Just my two cents.
PS: Deathwing is, indeed, gon' get got!
SleepySlug Nov 6th 2011 3:06AM
"It's a bandaid to hold off until MoP brings in all the "you don't have to raid to get VP capped" options, and then the only people raiding at all will be the people that want to"
I really don't agree with this idea. I mean, we ALREADY have non-raiding ways to completely VP cap. And also, if you're not interested in raiding, why care about VP? Gear that looks shiney? They've got that covered with Transmog... The only argument is that people want better gear.
Okay... but the better gear comes from actually raiding. So there's always that trade off that'll come and ultimately, if all anyone is interested is getting that better or best gear regardless of how much crap they have to wade through, they're gonna keep trying. It's a priority thing and there's no way to force someone to change their own priorities. You can't even compare the gear from LFR to that from actual raiding because players will ALWAYS haze you for it. So that problem's not fixed either. Also, that community driven peer-pressure that if "you're not actually raiding; you're still inferior" still stands in this system as well.
So no, I don't believe that providing all these new ways to cap VP will change the way the LFR all too much. What WILL change it is when people try it for a month, get sick of the condensed idiocy and give it up forever (a group in which I will probably end up =p).
Arrohon Nov 6th 2011 12:20AM
If you like to queue for dungeons alone, you might want to rethink that philosophy. Every slot filled with a good player will be incredibly valuable. A good group of 5 will likely get through much faster than a single person even though both "groups" will be mostly random people.
DNW5379 Nov 6th 2011 12:40AM
The comment: "..., or the 12-year-old racist who can't control his Vent outbursts" really makes me think you are rolling on my server. I had an exact match of this not two days ago. Problem was, he is banned on EVERY vent server any decent raiding group has. Good times!
Zyn Nov 6th 2011 1:30AM
GM raid leaders is what we need - bit like a guided tour. They would have the ultimate control needed to kick where needed too.
Vash-Trigun Nov 6th 2011 1:25AM
" or the guy in Russia who is apparently playing WoW on a TI-86 calculator over a satellite phone connection" ROTFLMAO i cried laughing for like 5 mins.
venslor Nov 6th 2011 1:37AM
i literally pictured it in my head!
Mondi Nov 6th 2011 7:18PM
Mad respect to a solid TI-86 reference. That baby got me through Calculus class in style!
Sarah Nov 6th 2011 1:29AM
Warlocks rule, mages drool. And do inappropriate things with sheep.
WoWie Zowie Nov 6th 2011 1:34AM
25 asshats all trying to give direction at the same time in the default voice chat sounds like a fast way to a good headache. maybe if they instituted that only the raid leader and those who have assist can use voice it would lead to less confusion?