Officers' Quarters: In the wake of drama, tragedy

Drama happens in guilds. As officers, we do everything we can to avoid it. Sometimes we make mistakes that set us up for it. At other times, it's simply inevitable. Much of it is stupid and pointless. However, nothing puts it all in perspective like a sudden, shared tragedy. This week, a guild leader wonders how he can deal with this terrible circumstance in the aftermath of a guild-shattering argument.
Scott,
I have a really difficult problem that I would like your advice, or at least your opinion. This problem is two fold and I will start with the short but serious series of events that have transpired the last few days. I (basically) started the guild a week before Cataclysm. We took off quick and became extremely successful. One of the first guilds to hit 25 on the server (which made me a really proud guild leader).
Early in the guilds history, we had a member join our guild, lets call him Eddie. Eddie has an abrasive personality and he tends to insult people. The thing is, hes not and never is being serious. He jokes and unless you spend more than 5 minutes talking to him, you just assume he's insulting you, which he's not. Well Eddie, being new to the guild (that had relatively little officers), hit the ground running and showed qualities of a true leader. He built our raid team, geared people, taught people, and did his job in a way that I've not seen done even as I raided through Wrath. Eddie however joined the military and had to leave for Basic Training. When he left, it was agreed upon that the raid leader spot would be temporarily given to another officer and would be given back when Eddie returned.
Hi, Phobituary. I'm very sorry to hear about your loss. It's never an easy thing to handle in an online setting, and in this case it's doubly difficult given all the recent drama. However, I think that you should try to put together a memorial ceremony for this player, regardless.When Eddie was gone, we progressed pretty far and the Interim Raid leader was slowly getting the hang of it. During this time also, our 10 man team slowly lost and gained members and before long we had almost an entirely new set of people.When Eddie came back, problems arose quickly. People who were new to the guild since Eddie went to basic weren't sure what to make of his personality which they considered too rash. After seeing how people reacted to his return, I decided to go out of my normal principles and I told Eddie I wanted to do a trial to let people get used to him before introducing them to a leader they've never met and who's never done Firelands. The trial would be just to start a 2nd raid team, and once it was up an running and progressing (so he could learn the fights a bit better too), he would be returned to Raid Leader.
This was discussed to the interim and would not be a problem. However, one member in particular didnt like Eddie's abrasive attitude and constantly complained about what he would say. She once said "I just feel bad for him as he embarrasses himself". I explained that if she ever seen him breaking a rule and could screenshot it, I would take care of it, but simply not liking someone was not reason enough. This continued and even though Eddie hadn't broken a rule, I felt he could present himself in a better way and I told him privately that he needed to watch how he acts if he wants peoples respect. He apologized and he seemed to really even out after that. Although he still angered her again later and she quit anyway.
So yesterday, everything hit the fan. I got attacked by one of the guild members (an officer no less) because they felt that Eddie didn't deserve to be raid leader when he gets done with the raid team. I tried to explain why and he ignored anything I said and just kept praising the interim. While I'm trying to calm him, I have another member in guild spamming "Earn your spot", referring directly to Eddie. I'm trying to keep the peace while also holding my ground and eventually the first guild member who attacked me quit. Then the second started flaming Eddie and I had enough and kicked him. Then another officer quit, and slowly my raid team quit. Of my 10 man team only three of the 8 left who left, left on good terms. Which left me with only one member who didn't leave my guild who was on our 10 man team.
Well last night I got a text from the interim (who left) saying the one who hadn't left hadn't been on in 5 days and missed raid last week, and he thought he may know why. We found out today for certain, and the reason was because he died 5 days ago while playing a game he loved. He was a great member and would have never given into drama like this. He will be truely missed and everyone who knew him is just starting to grieve. It is for that reason that I want to have a funeral or similar function in game to allow those who knew him to pay their respects to a man they never met in real life, but loved none the less. The problem I now face, is how do I do so in a way that doesn't let drama ensue when you consider that most of the people that knew him are now separated into two different guilds who are basically opposites. How can I honor him, without disrespecting what should be a group grieving process.
Signed,Phobituary
Tragedy transcends drama
Something like this goes so far beyond the petty bickering of online life. It puts into perspective how small a problem like choosing a raid leader really is. If people don't realize that, it's their problem, not yours.
My suggestion would be to go ahead with whatever you feel is appropriate and invite everyone who knew him. Include all those from the splinter guild, whether they left on good terms or not.
However, you need safeguards that the event won't degenerate into another drama outbreak. Hold the actual ceremony in raid chat or on your own voice chat server. That way, you can control the proceedings. If anyone starts to act inappropriately, you can just kick them from the raid or chat server.
Holding it in a more private setting will also prevent general server population trolling. People have a habit of announcing and holding these things publicly. While doing so can certainly result in a bigger turnout, it can also lead to some truly horrific outcomes.
An unfortunate promise
I know this is nowhere near your top priority right now, but as for the raid leader situation, it's not likely to be salvaged at this point. Things simply went too far, too fast.
In the future, I'd recommend not making promises to players who are leaving for extended periods of time. Guild leaders should always be wary of making promises that they may not be able to deliver on. The big one is when guild leaders hand the guild over to someone else, and that person promises to hand the guild back when the original leader returns.
Many times, they regret the promise either because they don't want to step down or because the guild has changed so much in the meantime that the returning leader is no longer the best person to lead. A returning raid leader puts everyone in a similar situation. As you've seen, guild cultures can change quite rapidly when there is high turnover.
Rather than making a promise, it's always better simply to say, "We'll evaluate what's best for the guild when you come back." In this case I think the raid leader issue was forced on a guild that wasn't ready for it. The "earn your spot" trolling was completely childish and unnecessary, but ultimately that player had a point.
When you're gone for a long time like that, regardless of the cause, you need to get up to speed both in terms of gear and experience in the zone. Due to Eddie's previous efforts, he certainly should have been given a chance to raid with the guild and build himself back up to a player who could lead raids.
Even so, setting him up as the future raid leader immediately after his return was not the right time. It was also somewhat disrespectful to the interim raid leader who had so much success to begin replacement talks right away.
Granted, your raiders certainly did not respond to the situation with anything approaching maturity or understanding. That's the other half of the problem here. Members of our military deserve support and patience when their duties get in the way of their guild responsibilities.
At this point, you essentially have two choices: You can rebuild, or you can walk away. I don't envy you either situation.
/salute
Filed under: Officers' Quarters (Guild Leadership)






Reader Comments (Page 1 of 4)
Othgan Nov 7th 2011 2:13PM
The whole guild was being quite childish. If my Guild Leader brought in a total stranger for a raid leader when the current was doing fine I would be wary, but I would at least give him a chance. If he was as awesome as the GL described him as then I would have no problem accepting him.
Also, people take things too seriously. I have learned to take everything I hear over the internet with a grain of salt. If I feel insulted I fight back playfully first, then with full force if it's a true insult.
Jyotai Nov 7th 2011 3:55PM
I disagree.
I think everyone who quit was in the right, and Eddie should never have been given a leadership role to begin with, yet alone had it given back to him later.
Abrasive personalities never make good leaders, period.
If you can't watch your manners, you can't manage people in a way that encourages them to grow and bond as a team.
A leader needs to set a good example, not a low-bar.
As for the second issue in this post, the funeral; anyone who can't set aside grievances for something RL like that, has serious issues. I would not even worry about it - as its not reasonable for anyone to use a funeral as a stage for acting out. Its not even sane for them to do so.
That said, in-game funerals for RL members of the WoW community have in past been hotspots for griefing... so I would be very wary of meeting in WoW to do this. Frankly, I'd suggest everyone just discuss on Facebook / MySpace, or if you wanted 3D avatars to move around and talk; use Second Life.
- WoW has a lot of people of questionable morality / sanity, and they would be unable to resist attacking and harassing people coming together for a RL memorial.
Duts Nov 7th 2011 4:47PM
"Abrasive personalities never make good leaders, period."
Really? Gen. Douglas MacAurthur, Supreme Commander of the Allied Forces in WWII would like to have a word with you. :-)
gewalt Nov 7th 2011 5:02PM
Can't possibly disagree anymore. The GL made a huge mistake. His members tried to voice their concerns about having an asshole foisted upon them, and were ignored.
They did not accept the replacement. Nor would I have.
The fact that drama erupted in guild chat over the event is background noise, disregard that. it's what happens when people accidentally fail to repress their true feelings.
Spellotape Nov 7th 2011 7:02PM
@ Jyotai
It wasn't given back to him - he was leading a second raid. The person who took over his raid leading duties was stated to not have a problem with this - obviously "Eddie" didn't, either.
Raid leaders, in particularly ones who actually want to be raid leaders, are in pretty short supply. If you're in a guild you should get to know people, not take them at the worst things they say - this story feels like the people who left and the new RL could have done more to get to know each other. I'm guessing the precious 10 man core was extremely resistant to including a new member (which they tend to be since it means one of them sits more) and it's easier to decide not to help your guild when it seemingly benefits you than it is to work together.
Rob Nov 7th 2011 8:15PM
MacCarthur was only in the pacific front. The supreme commander of the allies was Ike Eisenhower
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dwight_D._Eisenhower
Jyotai Nov 7th 2011 9:44PM
Gen. MacAuthor can come talk to me right after he explains the existence of North Korea and the Chinese invasion during the Korean War that was purely triggered by his abrasive attitude making them fear that he was going to invade -after- his troops had already finished off the North Koreans.
Abrassives just bring out the worst in other people. A raid leader should be trying to bring out their best not antagonize them.
Malichai Nov 8th 2011 2:45AM
First off, i want to point out that i am one of many who left this guild. So before you judge myself and the rest of us, you need to know the whole story, (parts left out by the GM).
I was a rescent addition to this guild upon a 4 month vacation from wow, playing rift. Upon coming back to the game, me and my crew found a new server which seemed promising due to high numbers in population and nice economy. One of my crew found this guild and gave it a shot, and the rest of us soon joined. Some, not all of us quickly joined the ranks of raiders. My crew has been playing together since vanilla, so with that being said, we have seen our share of just about anything you can imagine when it comes in the form of guild drama.
This raid leader "Eddie" was still around when my crew joined and never really said much in guild chat that would be considered condisending or down right harsh. However, shortly after his return from basic training, he came in full force with insults, racism, threats, you name it.
For the most part, me and my crew tried to ignore it and let it be. Yet on one fateful day, my own MILITARY background came out in guild chat. After seeing this kind of blatent bashing of guild members on a daily basis, i had enough. I was seeing from what i could only say, was a form of PTSD coming out in this "Eddie" person. Constently insulting lower ranking guild members and putting them down, trying to break them so HE could mold them back into the "Soldier" HE wanted them to be. This is exactly what happens to anyone who goes through Basic Training. Trust me, ive been through it myself. Anyway, as i stated earlier this kind of behavior is very close to a borderline case of PTSD, from bootcamp mind games. So, in guild chat, i pulled Military Rank on this "Eddie" guy and told him to act his rank, and stop insulting people. I also told him he needed to seek help for his obvious PTSD issues he was having. I reminded him of the oath he took when he joined the Military and that insulting civilians was not in that oath.
Immedietly upon saying these things, i get told by the GM in guild chat that i would be kicked if i continued "as he so delicatly put it" insulting his officer. I immediately got numerous whispers from many of the guild stateing, "it's about time someone put him in his place, called him out on his crap, etc". I also recieved many whispers from the current Officer base in guild, that if i got kicked, they were leaving the guild, and that they were tired of this favoritism by the GM towards this one Officer "Eddie". I then whispered the GM himself and simply explained my concerns for his Friend? / Officer. I also told him that it was not right for him to allow one of his Officers to disrespect people like "Eddie" was doing. Shortly after that i seen in guild chat, one of my crew say " respect is earned not demanded" The GM ended the conversation in guild chat and whispers shortly after that, threatening to kick any and all who disobey his words.
That same weekend is when the @#$% hit the fan so to say, the officer base tried to talk to the GM about this again, yet, only praise was given to this "Eddie" guy by the GM. He forgot the other officers and contributing players who helped get his guild up and running and into FL content. Needless to say, after they were left out of his so called loop of trusted opinions. They had enough as well and quit. Me and my crew quit as well, being as when we logged on that sunday morning, we found the guild message of the Day stating "Casual Racism is Permitted - Phob"
So now that you know the whole story of what "really" happened to this guild. Maybe you can see our point in quitting.
No one should have to log onto a game that they play for fun and entertainment and endure the kind of Harsh, obscene, vulgor, racist, disrespectful, language that this ONE officer was allowed to get away with. Joke or Not, it is uncalled for, and not to be taken lightly. We as gamers forget that most of the time our true nature comes out in these avatars we play in a fantasy world. So if you want to feel sorry for what this GM who allowed this to happen to his guild, feel free. It only shows that you, as well as him and his only trusted Officer share something in common.
I truely hope that once you have all read this now, you can empathize with those who left this guild on a road to self distruction.
As for the Death of our in game friend, we all are grieving him. And what the GM said about him not putting up with the drama and BS that the GM himself allowed to go on, i agree. He would have left with the rest of us and been a most enjoyed ally in the ranks of our new guild.
This player will be missed greatly by us, for he was a root to common sense in every raid i ran with him. Always a voice of reason, and level headedness.
Now you know the truth.
Phobituary Nov 8th 2011 8:20AM
@Malichai, that is hardly the story at all. When you were talking to "Eddie" you started insulting him, RATHER than bring it to my attention. I only saw half the arguement and the half I saw was you basically telling him he needed to seek attention for his mental problems. I told you and everyone in the guild (as was referenced above), if you see Eddie breaking a rule, take a screenshot and send it to me. You couldn't even give me a screenshot from the current conversation. I basically told you and everyone else who had a problem with him that fighting fire with fire simply doesnt work, and that I have to treat this the same way any teacher or leader would. If you're in school and a kid hits you with a wad of paper, and instead of telling the teacher.... you hit him.... then yeah, you're going to get in trouble. Rather than having told me that he threw a paper wad. Coincidentally, when I told Eddie to quit presenting himself in a disrespectful manner was directly after this conversation (also mentioned above). I also want to point out that you never raided in the guild, and left because your mother is the above stated person who left. Which I have no problem with either of you.
zoeofthedead Nov 8th 2011 8:34AM
@ Malichai
I'm sorry, but if the best that your "crew" could come up with to speak their side of things was you, then they chose poorly. While it's true that every dispute has at least two sides to it, you do not do your side justice.
Here's what I think happened. I think the guild leader made two mistakes here. One was allowing this "Eddie" fellow to talk to people whatever way he liked, because I'm willing to believe you on this one. I doubt your former leader is quite as innocent as he makes himself out to be and I'm certain he played down this guy's rude behavior. The other mistake, in my opinion, was inviting you and your "crew" in the first place.
I lead a guild myself and I've made this mistake before. You don't invite prefab cliques to your guild. You just don't. It doesn't matter HOW good some of its players are. If you disagree with even one of those members (and it takes a strong ego to rally a group of people to hop from server to server, guild to guild, so disagreements are almost certain), you disagree with ALL of those members. It leads to a very uncomfortable situation for that guild leader and generally for any members in the guild from before that clique came around. The ensuing split is almost always filled with a massive amount of drama. So don't play innocent. It took two (or a dozen) to tango and you're just as much to blame for this as your former leader is.
Also, that was pretty smooth there, the way you used your guildmate's death to attack your old leader one more time. You know, saying he was everything that Phobituary was not. Really fucking classy, man.
And one last thing. I have real trouble believing you've ever been in the military. You clearly don't know shit about PTSD, let alone what causes it. If you developed PTSD from simply attending basic training, then you are a serious pussy. Like, the most serious of pussies. You do not get PTSD from basic training. You get PTSD from actual extreme mental and emotional trauma... like seeing combat, like being raped, like seeing someone killed, you know... REAL trauma. You do NOT get PTSD from being told to drop and give Sergeant Buzzcut 50 push ups. Get a clue.
1ykcud Nov 8th 2011 1:54PM
Its easy to point out that there are military leaders that have been abrasive and have done well, but the difference is with WoW we are paying money to participate in these events. I for one would not pay money to be treated like crap.
Malichai Nov 8th 2011 3:47PM
@Phob and Zoe.
First off, Phob. I did not post on here to start arguing back and forth. I simply posted to let another side of the story be heard. Yes, its my side of the story, from my perspective, but it gets the point across. And that is showing your favoritism towards this one person over the rest of your guild. I myself dont really care either way, but those of your core guild that you shit on deserve a voice. Oh and btw, i did raid with the second raid team as a standby, yet you were hardly on, so i dont expect you to know that.
Now onto Zoe. So you think i have no military background aye??? Lets think... AS2, USS Iwo Jima, 06 Lebinon evac, Katrina relief, amongst numerous missions in the gulf which my secondary duty came into play, stretcher bearer. To the civilian population that is an Onboard equivilant to an EMT. So yes i have seen the blood and the gore of combat. Given i am now a disabled vet, yet im still in the reserves, 7 years total now. SO please dont assume you know me at all. Now onto PTSD by definition it is simply a severe anxiety disorder that can develop after exposure to any event that results in psychological trauma. That being said, Bootcamp mind games can be a contributing factor to some, depending on the mental capacity to handle the situation. Now i assumed that this Eddie guy was suffering from stress he recieved while in basic, yet came to find out he had to ID a friends faceless body in the weeks shortly after his release out of Basic. So i stick to my original story that this guy needs help, and for Phob as a friend you should make sure he gets it.
With that being said, i will no longer post on here. It was my first and this will be my last, as i feel that i have accomplished what i set out to do. Once i saw this familiar looking story on wowinsider, and realized that it was something i was involved in and could give voice to the others who knew nothing of this being on this website.
zoeofthedead Nov 8th 2011 7:01PM
@ Malichai
HAHA! I knew it. The Navy? You didn't see shit that would've caused PTSD in any of the things you named. GSM2, USS Hawes, we were there for the USS Cole attack in Yemen, I was also a stretcher bearer for my general quarters position. Don't try and bullshit a bullshitter. You don't suffer from PTSD and, unless you just have an insane phobia of being told to fold clothes, you're not going to be getting it from US Navy basic training, either. Again, unless you're just THAT big a pussy.
nicholasshaffer Nov 9th 2011 2:56AM
@ Zoe
God really, can you read. Im not talking about myself you idiot. How you got that i suffer from it is beyond my understanding, other than maybe you mis-read it. Jesus man, go back and read it again. You sir, have pulled my comments way out of proportion, Im talking about the Army guy, "Eddie" not me, you tard.
It is people like you who mis-read things, and mis-understand them which cause so much more drama and argument than is needed.
So please just stop with your assumptions. If you cant read something correctly, dont read it at all. And even more, dont post responses. You only make yourself look dumb.
zoeofthedead Nov 9th 2011 8:33AM
@ nicholasshaffer
Haha, you ass. I guess I got to you?
I should point out that I find it pretty funny that you ask me if I am able to read, when you've been clearly selective in your reading of my posts. Not only did I have a lot more to say than just whether or not you got PTSD in basic training, but then I went on to say you don't have it AND you don't get it from going to basic training. You sure did neglect to read anything but the "you don't have it" part.
Since you missed it, I'll say it again. This guild of Phob's is better off without you and your "crew". And no, I don't know either one of you. I play on Frostwolf. It's just that I recognize an ass when I see one.
Dementron Nov 11th 2011 3:50PM
MMotD: "Casual Racism is Permitted - Phob"
That alone would have gotten me to leave.
And suggesting someone get mental help isn't an insult if you mean it. It's trying to help them.
niko Nov 7th 2011 2:17PM
I'm a GM. Had I been in your shoes for that series of events, I would have likely taken an extended break from the game.
Life is full of drama and whatnot, but you just had a trifecta all at once.
Damn, dude. Hope things get sorted out and normalcy returns soon!
JattTheRogue Nov 7th 2011 2:21PM
First off, that's really sad about the guild member who died. I'm sorry you lost a friend.
I wanted to remark about this sentence: "It was also somewhat disrespectful to the interim raid leader who had so much success to begin replacement talks right away." I definitely agree that the second Eddie got back wasn't the right time to set him up as the new raid leader, but I don't think it's disrespectful, and I think the others who complained and quit took it too far for one main reason: the plan from the moment Eddie originally left was that he would come back and take over again as raid leader. Was it a bad plan? Sure, maybe. But that's what had been decided, and if other people didn't like it they should have brought their concerns to the guild leader instead of complaining, spamming guild chat or bashing another guild member. Whether the decision to reinstate Eddie was the right or wrong one, that was completely eclipsed by the immature way the raiders acted. Even if they had decided in the end to go ahead and leave the guild to start their own, they could have done it after discussing it and with at least some good will on both sides instead of just blowing up the guild.
Brett Porter Nov 7th 2011 2:54PM
To be fair, they may not have known about the deal for his return. It sounded like a lot folks were new to the guild and didn't know Eddie.
Therinor Nov 7th 2011 4:57PM
Exactly... they might not have known!
The thing is: Did the raid team and the interim leader know that Eddie was supposed to get his spot back eventually?
Because seriously, if I was in that situation, taking over, hopefully growing into my new role, doing my duty, only to be told "OK, now the other guy is back now, and I promised...", I would be a bit disappointed too.
Sure, you can choose to say "Its my guild, and when I make a deal like that, its my decision and they just have to deal with it", but I will have to deal with the consequences, as not everyone will roll with those punches.
Raiding together for quite some time will usually make you grow together... you become a team, maybe a group of friends, and then stuff like this happens, maybe totally surprising to some, its no surprise they stick together.
I do agree also that the way the other members handled it wasnt very mature (then again, we only heard one side of the story, but then again, maybe I am just bitter), but once again, imagine you grow together as a raid team, and then te GL goes "Oh by the way, I made a deal with this guy last year, so yeah, he he, and oh, if he uses harsh language, sorry if that offends you, he doesnt mean it in a bad way"
Question is: Did they all know about the deal? Were they told this and maybe reminded of it in between? Because if they didnt know, its no surprise they reacted negatively, no matter in what manner, but thats just my opinion