Breakfast Topic: Should PVP and PVE gear be so different from each other?
by Mike W. McVey 
Nov 9th 2011 at 8:00AM
What is the purpose for PVP and PVE gear being mostly useless in the opposite grouping? At one time, raiders would own the Battlegrounds having the top gear in the game. In The Burning Crusade, subtlety rogues did the same in Arena with the tier 6 set bonus combined with Illidan's blades. But that was then, this is now.
Currently, I hate the fact that I have to grind two separate sets of gear to do the same exact role. My paladin is holy. Whether I PVP or PVE, I heal with her. The problem is that my resilience healing gear hinders me while running heroics, and my ilevel 346 gear hinders me in Arena and Battlegrounds. Some of those in my guild do not mind dying a few more times because my gear is not optimal, but let's face it, they would rather not die because of my gear.
I do remember how tough the grind for gear used to be. I do know that it is easier than ever to grind out two separate sets of gear. At the same time, I would like it to be more effective to wear a full 359 PVE set than 358 PVP set of gear.
What do you think? Should PVE and PVP gear be that so different from each other?
Filed under: Breakfast Topics, Guest Posts
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 6)
DragonFireKai Nov 9th 2011 8:09AM
Personally, I think that PvP gear should be standardized, issued to anyone who wants it, and be the only gear allowed within BGs and Arenas. Trying to start up in PvP gives players a double whammy, not only are they below the gear curve, their direct competators can be ahead of the gear curve. If you want a true display of skill, then having a standardized suit for each spec would allow for a level playing field, and stomp out complaints about multi DTW Wizcleave and the likes. Either you're better than the other team, or you're not.
Jamie Nov 9th 2011 8:17AM
Skill is an important factor and I see where you're coming from, but how do you give incentive to keep people playing? Reward, and people like getting new shiny gear.
However, in getting gear you put people who've not played before at a disadvantage.
Perhaps, we might see handicapped PvP in the future. Where the gear ilevel is normalised like in Challenge mode dungeons for MoP. Perhaps the reward would be greater the more your gear is reduced in ilvl. I don't know but it seems the way to go.
velutina Nov 9th 2011 8:45AM
How do you keep people playing without shiny new gear to entice them? Make it fun. Plenty of people PvP in Halo or CoD without getting shiny new gear.
danny.stout723 Nov 9th 2011 1:15PM
I kinda like the idea. Perhaps weapons could still be obtainable from doing well. They could also use mounts, pets, tabards, visual gear for transmog, titles, glowing auras, fun trinkets, gold, or basically anything else. I don't even bother with PvP because it feels like you have to stick with it and keep your PvP gear up to date if you really want a chance. Even in random BGs you're putting yourself at a disadvantage by going in with PvE gear. I mean, I'm already building 3 different sets of gear and 1 less to worry about would definitely be nice, imho.
danny.stout723 Nov 9th 2011 8:51AM
I kinda like the idea. Perhaps weapons could still be obtainable from doing well. They could also use mounts, pets, tabards, visual gear for transmog, titles, glowing auras, fun trinkets, gold, or basically anything else. I don't even bother with PvP because it feels like you have to stick with it and keep your PvP gear up to date if you really want a chance. Even in random BGs you're putting yourself at a disadvantage by going in with PvE gear. I mean, I'm already building 3 different sets of gear and 1 less to worry about would definitely be nice, imho.
patgamer Nov 9th 2011 8:52AM
I agree, you should be given a choice of gear, with the ability to alter it (reforging, gemming, enchanting) and then save it for that spec, so everytime you enter a BG/Arena with that spec you are equipped with that gear.
As for rewards.. crushing your opponent and emerging victorious should be enough. I think titles and mounts are solid rewards for those who do well. And if you are rubbish, you should get nothing. Just like PvE. Can't down a raid boss, you get no loot.
Each season could still have a different look for each class still, transmogging purposes and such.
jmccance Nov 9th 2011 8:53AM
This. A thousand times this.
I've always been turned off by the gearing process for PvP. You're expected to pay a massive entry fee to buy your PvP blues only to get continually harassed by your "teammates" because your gear isn't good enough. It's practically a hazing ritual.
I don't think PvP needs gear to incentivize it, or at least not gear that increases your power. Personal satisfaction as you climb the leader boards and perhaps some aesthetic rewards (transmog gear, mounts, pets, etc.) should be enough.
anonymous Nov 9th 2011 9:11AM
The incentive could be to provide the same currency as the dungeon finder instead of honor/conquest. Then everyone is spending their marks for the same gear in a way that's fun for them, which would also help balance world-PvP since there wouldn't be a mix of PvP/PvE and some douchebag rogue happens to stalk you while you're still flagged in your PvE gear while trying to get your Tol Barad dailies done.
This would be a great way to help visually separate pandas a little easier in battlegrounds, too; standardized gear could be faction-colored so Alliance is blue, Horde red, and everyone could wear a faction tabard. It would definitely feel more like a battle if both sides were in uniform.
loop_not_defined Nov 9th 2011 9:22AM
The difference between Halo and WoW is that WoW is an RPG. Removing gear essentially turns PVP into an FPS game as far as I'm concerned.
I think they should just remove Resilience and standardize gear, as the article suggests. The reason they were split in the first place had to do with PVE's often horrible RNG drop rates, and difficulty of acquisition compared to BGs. These factors led many players to grinding Battlegrounds...for PVE gear.
These days, PVE gear acquisition is far more comparable to PVP than it used to be. If Blizzard removed Resilience, I don't think we would see the mass flocking of PVE players to PVP that we once saw before.
loop_not_defined Nov 9th 2011 9:33AM
Flip the argument over, for example:
Personally, I think that PvE gear should be standardized, issued to anyone who wants it, and be the only gear allowed within Dungeons and Raids. Trying to start up in PvE gives players a double whammy, not only are they below the LFD/LFR curve, their Tank or DPS or Healer is way ahead and expects a lot from you. If you want a true display of skill, then having a standardized suit for each spec would allow for a level playing field, and stomp out complaints about ilvl faking, what DPS should be required for what gear levels, and whether gear or skill caused a wipe.
Note: I don't actually support the above. Just playing devil's advocate here.
loop_not_defined Nov 9th 2011 9:37AM
More Devil's Work:
How do you keep people playing without shiny new gear to entice them? Make it fun. Plenty of people PvE in Halo without getting shiny new gear.
I don't think PvE needs gear to incentivize it, or at least not gear that increases your power. Personal satisfaction as you learn and defeat bosses and perhaps some aesthetic rewards (transmog gear, mounts, pets, etc.) should be enough.
Ramses Nov 9th 2011 9:48AM
If everyone is given a "pvp suit" then rewards do not have to be pvp gear. They could be quest/PVE gear, mounts, pets, toys and etc. Once pvp gear is out of the equation, there is really no reason not to award JP to pvp victors. The JP + kills is about the same as what one would receive for powering through a small dungeon. Another option would be to bring back rank-titles baed on total HKs or even season titles for HKs that season. The standard "bribes" work as well.
Imagine this...
"In season 37, all pvp'ers will be given a pvp suit upon entering the battlegrounds. At the end of the season, players with more than x-hundred wins for the season will receive the new pet Snurggle. Players with more than Y hundred wins for the season will receive the new whatever mount."
It has all the classic MMO properties. Long term, dedicated grind, for prestigious exclusive rewards and rewards based on player determination to succeed or flat out skill.
Firestyle Nov 9th 2011 9:48AM
I can't bring myself to do PvP anymore. I like playing with other people, and most PvP I do would be solo. Arena is too hardcore for me, and my server hosts limited, if any, rated BG play. I ground out some PvP gear after 4.2, and literally am considering DEing it for bag space for transmog items.
It's not that I don't enjoy PvP, I just enjoy it with other players. Two things killed that for me, 1) a max level of 5 players in a random BG queue, and 2) just complete lack of rated BGs on my server.
PvPing solo just feels like another grind, with players you never see again. If I could queue up with even the same random people for a longer session I'd have a lot more fune.
lazymangaka Nov 9th 2011 10:03AM
It's funny, I feel that doing PVE has too high of a barrier to entry at 85. I jumped straight into PVP when I hit 85, and now I'm stuck with an awesome set of Vicious/Ruthless gear on most of my characters that I can't do anything but PVP with. I can't run 85 normals because the gear really isn't an upgrade, but I can't run heroics either because people see me in PVP gear and assume I'm a scrub and vote-kick me. And there's no possible way I could raid because I simply don't have enough Hit.
At least with PVP you can buy crafted blues to supplement some resilience and it actually makes a difference. If I bought crafted blues to replace my PVP gear it would be a DPS loss.
loop_not_defined Nov 9th 2011 10:07AM
@Firestyle
I honestly believe this is one of the core problems with queueing: You cannot make friends with the random players you're grouped with. If you could Friend characters (normal friending) cross-server, and then queue with those friends, I think LFD, Battlegrounds, and soon LFR, would be far more enjoyable experiences.
And no, Real ID is not sufficient. Sharing your IRL name and e-mail with someone you've anonymously known for 30-50 minutes is all kinds of creepy. (directing this one at Blizzard)
Puntable Nov 9th 2011 10:08AM
They already "give" you a set of PVP starter gear. Anyone with the suitable armor profession can craft it, and the patterns automatically upgrade every patch. Remember when you had to grind your way up the ranks to get PVP gear? I think PVP gear is too easy, because everyone uses it to cheese their gear for PVE, and we end up with terrible group mates in dungeons.
velutina Nov 9th 2011 10:16AM
@loop:
I really don't see the differences you do between FPS and RPG for WoW, particularly for PvP. Fundamentally, in both cases I'm running around pushing buttons at another player. The point of view in WoW is adjustable so that I have a "first person" PoV if I wish. The action is first person, not RTS.
I would be fine with the changes you suggest to PVE as well. Take gear out of the PVE equation. The main reason we have gearing in PVE, in my opinion, is Skinner conditioning to create a Pavlovian-like response. Without the gear, Blizzard would have to work a bit harder to keep players interested in the actual game. Gear is a lazy way (again, IMO) to keep us racing on the hamster wheel of dungeons and raids. It is not the only way. It just happens to be a cheap and effective way. Questing would be an alternative (think Taregosa's Rest quests for the whole guild/raid). Currency, or tokens, or other vanity items other have suggested would be other alternatives.
Having players run on the endless gear wheel is a cheap way to get out of having to create lots of content. I'd rather have the content.
loop_not_defined Nov 9th 2011 10:27AM
Velutina, if you believe gear should be removed from PVE as well, then I can understand why you would want it removed from PVP. I'm not for either, but it's something I wanted people to think about, as you already have.
Summarizing PVP as being "fundamentally pushing buttons" is rather disingenuous, though. Tetris is also just pushing buttons, as is FarmVille, data entry, e-mailing, and navigating websites. My point was rather that WoW is an RPG, and people play RPGs expecting to find RPG elements. Being able to increase your power via numbers, not just skill, is one of the most defining elements of RPGs.
DarkWalker Nov 9th 2011 10:40AM
Standard PvP gear is what Blizzard itself does on it's PvP Tournament servers.
It's also what GW2 is going to do for Arenas, and why I'm planning to do quite a bit of PvP in GW2, even though I usually avoid WoW's PvP like the plague.
BTW, for loop_not_defined:
Come MoP, the upcoming PvE equivalent to the ranked Arena matches in difficulty and group size - PvE Challenges - will have normalized gear and award prizes that don't increase character performance, including recognition (through a Ladder) and cosmetic prizes. So, something quite akin to standard gear is coming to high-end PvE, or at least one of it's modes.
(And you can be sure I will see being part of a high ranked Challenge team as more impressive than being part of an elite raiding group; in a raid, a character can get lucky with drops that increase his performance, be carried by the rest of the raid team, etc, while in a challenge team there should be no gear-based handicap and no way to really carry a bad performing player.)
Bynde Nov 9th 2011 10:43AM
As a casual, PvP is about the only thing left for my 85 to do. And
I've built my gear up by grinding BGs and am proud of the fact that I
can do this, as opposed to getting a spot on a raid.
Take away that incentive and I no longer care to grind and no longer
have much to do in WoW anymore. It would eventually kill the game for
me.
It be like making the whole game FPS, another horrible idea I hope
never comes to pass.