Class Balance Q&A: Druid

Christina Thomas asked:
I noticed in a sample of the druid talent tree coming up in MoP, that there seems to not be many restoration-specific talents. In fact it seems a lot like hybrid-esque talents. Is this intentional? Will the lack of restoration talents be made up for in the spells they get?
Wradyx answered:
The overall philosphy of the Druid talent treee is to bring some hybridization back to the Druid class. The 4 Druid specs have become very focused on never using the forms that they do not specialize in. We would like to bring the whole class back together more. So, interesting functionality themed around the different combat roles has been introduced. Some players have objected that they aren't good at the other roles, and those abilities aren't worth the global cooldown they cost. To address this, we are making the existing Nurturing Instinct talent baseline to both Feral and Guardian Druids, and making a new talent which grants attack power based on Intellect for Restoration and Balance Druids. That will make the occasional use of core class abilities that require other forms useful even to the Restoration Druid. In addition, the combination of talents may let a Restoration Druid do things like use Demoralizing Roar, which cc's nearby enemies, triggers an instant heal (from Disentanglement), and increases armor and health all in a single gcd. That capability is useful to Restoration Druids even in a raid setting.
Wradyx added:
Correction, not a new talent, a new baseline abiltiy for Resto and Balance that grants ap from Intellect.
Clayton Nash asked:
Are there any plans to simplify the feral cat druid dps rotations or are you happy where they are right now?
Wradyx answered:
The Feral rotation has been simplified slightly in 4.3 by renaming the Glyph of Shred and allowing it to trigger off Mangle instead. In addition, in 5.0 Mangle will no longer cause a bleed damage debuff and so no longer be required in the rotation. At that point, the two abilities will be interchangeable, changing only by whether a Feral Druid can attack from behind or not. That will make Feral easier to play in high movement encounters and encounters with facing restrictions. The current Feral Charge and Stampede talents are becoming part of Wild Charge, so you can select not to have that complexity with Ravage. Past that, we are pretty happy with the rotation and feel there is a strong Feral community that enjoys the current rotation.
John McIntosh asked:
Moonkin are losing many of their core talents to the general druid talent tree. How will they be compensated? It seems like we'll probably be forced to take these talents while the other druid specs will have options. Why were many more (500%?) balance talents taken away while talents from other specs werent?
Wradyx answered:
If you look at the tree carefully, you will find that talents from other Druid specs were also placed in the tree, such as Tree of Life, Feral Charge, Feline Swiftness, and Nature's Swiftness. In general, if a Druid wishes to keep the exact same abiltiies they have today, they can, they are just locking themselves out of some of the new choices. In particualr, the level 60 row has Feral Charge vs. Tree of Life vs. Force of Nature. Each of the existing 4.3 specs has something in that row, and the exciting opportunity to take something that belonged to a different spec instead.
Monopedia asked:
With the previously mentioned removal of the +bleed debuff will Feral druids have Mangle taken away to become Guardian only and Shred lose its positional requirement. Without the bleed debuff and its obvious lower damage output than shred, Mangle is extremely situational especially when somebody else is already providing the ability. Or will Mangle debuff on the target just increase the feral druids bleeds and shred damage?
Celestalon answered:
Mangle and Shred will both exist for Feral (cats). Mangle will no longer apply a debuff, but will be usable from any facing, whereas Shred will offer slightly more overall DPS if you are able to stay behind the target. Guardians (bears) will have Mangle, but not Shred.
BilalChohan asked:
For the Druid talent: Incarnation, what does this talent do to Balance/Moonkin Players?
Wradyx answered:
Incarnation for Balance transforms the Druid in to the Chosen of Elune Form, which currently increases spell damage done and Solar and Lunar energy generated. That is, of course, subject to change.
Guest asked:
Rogues and Feral Druids currently spend a good portion of their attack time just sitting and Autoattacking because they have to wait for Energy regen. Is there anything that you guys are thinking about to help lessen the waiting?
Ghostcrawler answered:
Honestly, we would prefer if all classes worked like that. The Energy model is the one that is most tolerant for lag, player error, movement and just giving players a chance to stop tunneling so much on the target and pay a little attention to the rest of the fight. We don't like it when any class fills every GCD. It works okay for casters, as long as they aren't using all instant spells.
Michele asked:
I think this is the main question that feral druids seems to have right now: when you said that Shred will do slightly more damage than Shred, did that mean that mangle is going to get buffed a little to provide less penalities in the several encounters we can't Shred? Because the difference between those skills is pretty big currently. ^^
Wradyx answered:
Our own internal numbers show that once the Glyph of Shred works from Mangle as well as Shred, the difference between a Mangle and a Shred rotation is actually fairly small (in the 5% range).
NateDosMil asked:
As a Druid, I feel that the level 90 talents feel too much like work. You guys put so much effort into making the Moonkin unique and more complex, so why force us to shift more often to fill other combat roles? Poor kitties are going to have a nightmare of a time dealing with this...
Wradyx answered:
The level 90 Druid talents deliberately come in 3 different levels of work required. Heart of the Wild is perfect for an encounter where there is a period where increased healing is needed for a short time, and dps is not the need of the encounter. Something like the Chimaeron encounter where more healing is needed at certain times, and dps is less important. Master Shapeshifter targets the Druid who is willing to do a lot of work shifting back and forth or occasionally needs to heal or damage, such as Blood Queen Lanathel, where a Tranquility boosted by the talent would help your group a lot during her air phase. Disentanglement is there for the lazy Druid who doesn't want to do that work, but still gets some benefit from a well-timed shapeshift.
Dennis Mooney asked:
There hasn't been any questions answered about Resto Druids yet. Can you talk about our extremely weak state in PvP and the fact that we're the only healer not only not seeing a buff but seeing a nerf in 4.3?
Wradyx answered:
We will definitely be addressing some of the PvP weakness of Resto Druids in 5.0. For one, the ability to recreate the Restokin builds of earlier expansions was introduced in the talent trees. Carefully selecting talents like Typhoon and Wild Charge together will give Restoration Druids a lot more opportunity to control. One of the new abilities Resto Druids will get baseline is a replacement for Barkskin that can be cast on others with the same effect and cooldown. Finally, we have a new level 87 ability abiltiy in mind for all Druids called Symbiosis that will blwo your mind and potentially add a lot of flexibility and utility, including survivabiltiy options.
Bellajtok asked:
A lot people are worried that with druids being able to do well at our other roles, we'll see the return of the hybrid tax. It's the same old story: if we can perform any role when needed, raids will stack us, unless we don't do as well in our specific roles, in which case we're bad at what we most want to do. What assurance can we get that we won't have this problem?
Celestalon answered:
We are very interested in opening opportunities for more hybrid gameplay in druids, as you can see in the level 90 talent tier, while still allowing an option for players who want to never do anything outside their role. We don't intend for that added hybridization to be offset by any sort of DPS nerf. While DPSing, a druid's DPS will be entirely competitive with other DPS. We hope to see druids that do things like, DPS in Cat Form most of the fight, but during one phase, when healing is super difficult, pop out of Cat, hit Heart of the Wild, Tranquility, and spam heals on the raid to help top everyone off, then go back to Cat and resume DPSing. In that sort of the situation, the Cat will have spent less time DPSing than other DPSers, but his/her DPS while DPSing would have been competitive, and in exchange helped save the raid when healers were falling behind. You can probably think of many situations where this would be useful in raid content, or in some 5man content, and frequently in PvP. To clarify a bit further on how the druids will perform at their off-roles: Ferals and Guardians will have Nurturing Instinct, which increases spell power based on Agility, and Balance and Restoration will have Killer Instinct, which increases attack power based on Intellect. They will have a smaller toolbox of spells for their off-role, but the strength of those spells will be competitive, when under the effects of those hybrid talents.
I noticed in a sample of the druid talent tree coming up in MoP, that there seems to not be many restoration-specific talents. In fact it seems a lot like hybrid-esque talents. Is this intentional? Will the lack of restoration talents be made up for in the spells they get?
Wradyx answered:
The overall philosphy of the Druid talent treee is to bring some hybridization back to the Druid class. The 4 Druid specs have become very focused on never using the forms that they do not specialize in. We would like to bring the whole class back together more. So, interesting functionality themed around the different combat roles has been introduced. Some players have objected that they aren't good at the other roles, and those abilities aren't worth the global cooldown they cost. To address this, we are making the existing Nurturing Instinct talent baseline to both Feral and Guardian Druids, and making a new talent which grants attack power based on Intellect for Restoration and Balance Druids. That will make the occasional use of core class abilities that require other forms useful even to the Restoration Druid. In addition, the combination of talents may let a Restoration Druid do things like use Demoralizing Roar, which cc's nearby enemies, triggers an instant heal (from Disentanglement), and increases armor and health all in a single gcd. That capability is useful to Restoration Druids even in a raid setting.
Wradyx added:
Correction, not a new talent, a new baseline abiltiy for Resto and Balance that grants ap from Intellect.
Clayton Nash asked:
Are there any plans to simplify the feral cat druid dps rotations or are you happy where they are right now?
Wradyx answered:
The Feral rotation has been simplified slightly in 4.3 by renaming the Glyph of Shred and allowing it to trigger off Mangle instead. In addition, in 5.0 Mangle will no longer cause a bleed damage debuff and so no longer be required in the rotation. At that point, the two abilities will be interchangeable, changing only by whether a Feral Druid can attack from behind or not. That will make Feral easier to play in high movement encounters and encounters with facing restrictions. The current Feral Charge and Stampede talents are becoming part of Wild Charge, so you can select not to have that complexity with Ravage. Past that, we are pretty happy with the rotation and feel there is a strong Feral community that enjoys the current rotation.
John McIntosh asked:
Moonkin are losing many of their core talents to the general druid talent tree. How will they be compensated? It seems like we'll probably be forced to take these talents while the other druid specs will have options. Why were many more (500%?) balance talents taken away while talents from other specs werent?
Wradyx answered:
If you look at the tree carefully, you will find that talents from other Druid specs were also placed in the tree, such as Tree of Life, Feral Charge, Feline Swiftness, and Nature's Swiftness. In general, if a Druid wishes to keep the exact same abiltiies they have today, they can, they are just locking themselves out of some of the new choices. In particualr, the level 60 row has Feral Charge vs. Tree of Life vs. Force of Nature. Each of the existing 4.3 specs has something in that row, and the exciting opportunity to take something that belonged to a different spec instead.
Monopedia asked:
With the previously mentioned removal of the +bleed debuff will Feral druids have Mangle taken away to become Guardian only and Shred lose its positional requirement. Without the bleed debuff and its obvious lower damage output than shred, Mangle is extremely situational especially when somebody else is already providing the ability. Or will Mangle debuff on the target just increase the feral druids bleeds and shred damage?
Celestalon answered:
Mangle and Shred will both exist for Feral (cats). Mangle will no longer apply a debuff, but will be usable from any facing, whereas Shred will offer slightly more overall DPS if you are able to stay behind the target. Guardians (bears) will have Mangle, but not Shred.
BilalChohan asked:
For the Druid talent: Incarnation, what does this talent do to Balance/Moonkin Players?
Wradyx answered:
Incarnation for Balance transforms the Druid in to the Chosen of Elune Form, which currently increases spell damage done and Solar and Lunar energy generated. That is, of course, subject to change.
Guest asked:
Rogues and Feral Druids currently spend a good portion of their attack time just sitting and Autoattacking because they have to wait for Energy regen. Is there anything that you guys are thinking about to help lessen the waiting?
Ghostcrawler answered:
Honestly, we would prefer if all classes worked like that. The Energy model is the one that is most tolerant for lag, player error, movement and just giving players a chance to stop tunneling so much on the target and pay a little attention to the rest of the fight. We don't like it when any class fills every GCD. It works okay for casters, as long as they aren't using all instant spells.
Michele asked:
I think this is the main question that feral druids seems to have right now: when you said that Shred will do slightly more damage than Shred, did that mean that mangle is going to get buffed a little to provide less penalities in the several encounters we can't Shred? Because the difference between those skills is pretty big currently. ^^
Wradyx answered:
Our own internal numbers show that once the Glyph of Shred works from Mangle as well as Shred, the difference between a Mangle and a Shred rotation is actually fairly small (in the 5% range).
NateDosMil asked:
As a Druid, I feel that the level 90 talents feel too much like work. You guys put so much effort into making the Moonkin unique and more complex, so why force us to shift more often to fill other combat roles? Poor kitties are going to have a nightmare of a time dealing with this...
Wradyx answered:
The level 90 Druid talents deliberately come in 3 different levels of work required. Heart of the Wild is perfect for an encounter where there is a period where increased healing is needed for a short time, and dps is not the need of the encounter. Something like the Chimaeron encounter where more healing is needed at certain times, and dps is less important. Master Shapeshifter targets the Druid who is willing to do a lot of work shifting back and forth or occasionally needs to heal or damage, such as Blood Queen Lanathel, where a Tranquility boosted by the talent would help your group a lot during her air phase. Disentanglement is there for the lazy Druid who doesn't want to do that work, but still gets some benefit from a well-timed shapeshift.
Dennis Mooney asked:
There hasn't been any questions answered about Resto Druids yet. Can you talk about our extremely weak state in PvP and the fact that we're the only healer not only not seeing a buff but seeing a nerf in 4.3?
Wradyx answered:
We will definitely be addressing some of the PvP weakness of Resto Druids in 5.0. For one, the ability to recreate the Restokin builds of earlier expansions was introduced in the talent trees. Carefully selecting talents like Typhoon and Wild Charge together will give Restoration Druids a lot more opportunity to control. One of the new abilities Resto Druids will get baseline is a replacement for Barkskin that can be cast on others with the same effect and cooldown. Finally, we have a new level 87 ability abiltiy in mind for all Druids called Symbiosis that will blwo your mind and potentially add a lot of flexibility and utility, including survivabiltiy options.
Bellajtok asked:
A lot people are worried that with druids being able to do well at our other roles, we'll see the return of the hybrid tax. It's the same old story: if we can perform any role when needed, raids will stack us, unless we don't do as well in our specific roles, in which case we're bad at what we most want to do. What assurance can we get that we won't have this problem?
Celestalon answered:
We are very interested in opening opportunities for more hybrid gameplay in druids, as you can see in the level 90 talent tier, while still allowing an option for players who want to never do anything outside their role. We don't intend for that added hybridization to be offset by any sort of DPS nerf. While DPSing, a druid's DPS will be entirely competitive with other DPS. We hope to see druids that do things like, DPS in Cat Form most of the fight, but during one phase, when healing is super difficult, pop out of Cat, hit Heart of the Wild, Tranquility, and spam heals on the raid to help top everyone off, then go back to Cat and resume DPSing. In that sort of the situation, the Cat will have spent less time DPSing than other DPSers, but his/her DPS while DPSing would have been competitive, and in exchange helped save the raid when healers were falling behind. You can probably think of many situations where this would be useful in raid content, or in some 5man content, and frequently in PvP. To clarify a bit further on how the druids will perform at their off-roles: Ferals and Guardians will have Nurturing Instinct, which increases spell power based on Agility, and Balance and Restoration will have Killer Instinct, which increases attack power based on Intellect. They will have a smaller toolbox of spells for their off-role, but the strength of those spells will be competitive, when under the effects of those hybrid talents.
Filed under: Druid






Reader Comments (Page 1 of 1)
paul.morales91 Nov 9th 2011 8:41PM
Personally, I LOVE the fact that they want us to shapeshift more often. I remember when I started leveling my druid in Wrath how I could pick any form I wanted, be it bear, cat, or caster and not die or go oom in seconds. I was able to constantly change my playstyle whenever I wanted to. Thats what made me fall in love with the druid class in the first place.
Those who are concerned about the druid no longer be a competitive dpser are, in a way, right to be. But then there are always those "oh sh*t" moments when the tank or healer dies when the raid/dungeon group needs a backup. To me, it doesn't matter if we lose some dps, because what we'll gain is a lot more adaptability and utility.
Shiel Nov 9th 2011 9:07PM
I too love that they want us to shift more! I've been playing feral since Vanilla and I've saved many a raid due to my flexibility. There have been fights where I've melee dps'd, tanked, healed and brought some one back to life in the space of a single encounter. I've really missed having that kind of utility the last couple of expansions. Leveling in Wrath my friend accused me of having MPD as I was frequently back and forth between forms to simplify our questing. Of course by the time we hit raiding in Wrath it was no longer a viable option. Sad kitty.
Landis Nov 9th 2011 9:32PM
After reading this i'm feeling a lot more negative about the upcoming changes and where they are taking druids. I'm ticked off about shred. Perhaps the wrong question is always asked in reguard to shred, will the positional requirement be removed? How about why is there a positional requirement to begin with? Why did it not go away when mutilate had its requirement removed? Explain why feral alone is so neferd when "behind the target" is not available. Also, kinda hard to stay behind people in PVP.
locksoflocks Nov 9th 2011 9:31PM
I think that most people will not like having to change their rolls constantly to be something else, I don't mind going cat to help meet a DPS requirement for an enrage timer, or being in cat and going bear to take up a tank spot cause a tank died and the Brez has been used. But I hate to heal and I don't care for Balance, IF I want to be ranged I'll bring my lock or hunter, I can see where raids will expect people to do things they don't want to just because they can. I would rather see 1 lvl 90 talent that allows for that and 2 that are better for mDPS/Tank or rDPS/Heals.
tmenzel Nov 10th 2011 12:15PM
If you wanted to perform the same role consistently throughout the life of the character, why did you roll a Druid? There are single-purpose classes that do anything a Druid can do equally well. The special thing about being a Druid is your ability to shift between them. The developers are giving you the toolbox to be more effective in more situations and have a greater variety of play, and you're complaining because you might be forced into a role you don't enjoy? Hasn't that always been a concern for hybrid classes?
You say you hate to heal, but if shifting out of form and hitting Tranq has the real potential to save your raid in a heavy damage phase, or shifting out of Bear and whipping out some DPS during a tank-not-required phase (transition phases on Ragnaros) can make everyone's life easier -- you're saying you'd prefer to just let the raid wipe because you'd rather not perform that role?
Sounds like you should roll a rogue. They only do one thing, and never get asked to perform a different role in the group.
locksoflocks Nov 10th 2011 5:37PM
I am ok with turning into a Cat and opening a can of WA, but if I am expected to heal or do ranged, just because I can, though less effectively, then I am not ok with that. And I DO have a max lvl Rogue, I also have a Hunter, Dk, Lock, Warrior, and Druid, all of which are raid geared (at least t11). All I am saying is the expectations of a raid leader can drive people to do things that they don't want constantly, and I can see that as a problem. What I see Bliz doing is making Druids a pure utility class.
Thorngrip Nov 10th 2011 5:36AM
I love this direction and it's steering the class back to what I loved about it in the first place. It's not only about satisfying one group of druid players at the expense of others though... I think they *must* strengthen the druids' role-shifting to counter class homogenization. Otherwise the class would continue on its course of becoming a green-textured version of other classes (resto = priest, feral = rogue, etc) and continuously stepping into their design space.
Now I try to be respectful of other players with different preferences from my own, but I've never fully understood the druid players who absolutely only want to play one role and no other. Why not just play a rogue then? Or warrior, if you like both tanking and melee dps, but never want to heal or do caster dps. Is it the nature, or is it so awesome to never see your gear while fighting?
ducss750 Nov 10th 2011 10:06AM
Explain, please, how this counters class homogenization. I see it forcing all druids to walk a very narrow path. We will all be shapeshifting situational healer-dps-tank-kins. The diversification by specialization allowed by the current talent trees will be completely lost in the new blended 4.3 talent bush.
Understanding the desire to only play one role as a Druid is no different than playing one role as a Paladin, Priest, or Warrior. I am a healer, I enjoy healing, therefore I am a tree. I can be a cat for a quick attack in PvP, fly to where I need to go as a big blue bird, but my focus is on healing. Blizz made some progress towards homogenization when they allowed trees to cast Wrath in treeform (but that was far enough for me:)
My GM loves to tank. His main is a Paladin with 2 tank specs. Should he be forced to use holy abilities to be a good tank? Maybe drop his shield for some quick 2 hand damage? Should our Shadow Priest be forced to heal because "...well, yanno, he IS a Priest"
Do you want to see your gear when fighting? Perhaps you shouldn't have rolled a class that changes shape (Druid) to do ANYTHING, one that takes on Shadowform (Priest) or one that relies on stealth (Rogue). The fact that my toon gets branches waving when throwing heals tickles the hell out of me and is just a huge added bonus. I still see my gear when treeform is on cooldown but I see no difference in maintaining tree or Moonkin form just as a Shadowpriest stays in evil-blue-cloudform.
paul.morales91 Nov 10th 2011 6:01PM
@ducss750 - I think by "class homogenization," Thorngrip means a differentiation between classes, not specs. Think of it this way: If you enjoy the whole combo point/energy thing, why roll a cat instead of a rogue? For tanking, why roll a bear instead of a warrior? Why roll a boomkin when you could roll a mage? Finally, why roll a tree when you could play a shaman or priest?
In each case, a particular druid form's counter part is not only just as good, but possibly superior for the fact that they, all in all, have a larger toolbox. You could do SO many more things as a rogue than as strictly a cat. So the question becomes why play a druid at all when you have all these other classes that are just as good if not better in these certain areas?
The reason druids are special, and the thing that makes them unique is that they can dip their feet into all these areas. A rogue cant tank, just like a mage cant heal. A warrior has difficulty attacking at a range, just like a shadow priest has a tough time dealing damage on the move. Druids have the potential to do all these things, and with 5.0, we will get that chance. Its not mandatory to constantly be shapeshifting, but the option is there and thats what makes this change exciting.
Therinor Nov 10th 2011 8:35AM
I agree to those saying that it's exciting that Blizz wants to focus on the shapehifting more. I do understand that some people are worried about it, as right now, switching into something not in your spec (i.e. trying to offtank in balance spec and bear form) isnt really working out well.
But I am all for using the possibilities that the class has to offer, especially if you have a choice. If you enjoy playing a boomkin, but suddenly are required to switch shapes ALL the time in order to be successful...well, then I can perfectly understand that it won't go over well, but if you like playing a moonkin, but you can switch to a different shape for certain situations to help out, whether its with some healing, maybe a quick emergency tanking on trash (nothing major), or even melee dps.. that would be interested for those who always missed more shapeshifting about this shapeshifting class =)
I love my druid, and have focussed on different specs over the years, right now liking being a boomkin, with resto as an offspec. However, i also love feral, and have a decent gear set for that. I use that for soloing old raids or sometimes PVP or instances. Changing my offspec to feral every time costs a bit of gold, but I dont mind... however, i would glady play 10K gold for a triplespec option =)
And if you have a choice to use the different shapes more often and actually have a chance to be successful with that, contributing to your group or raid about as much as you would focussing on only one shape right now, then Id be really happy
Therinor Nov 10th 2011 8:49AM
Quote: "In general, if a Druid wishes to keep the exact same abiltiies they have today, they can, they are just locking themselves out of some of the new choices."
...and thats what I mean... I truly hope this is the way it will be. While I personally love the idea of "even if you're resto or boomkin, you can benefit in certain situations from switching to cat or bear, using a few abilities, then go back"
The tough part will be to make it work so that those who simply love one spec and prefer to keep playing it that way won't be experiencing a disadvantage. I mean, yes, it sounds great to have more shapeshifting be supported, but there are people who actually LIKE sticking to one spec and shape.
So if they CAN balance it, if they can offer a choice that allows both the more shapeshift-heavy playstyle and the "old" style with none of them being way worse than the other (so that no one will be forced to get used to a totally new playstyle), then I think this is a great idea, and hope people will give it a chance.
I think Blizzard does not demand, say, feral druids to suddenly spend 50% of their time in caster-shape, casting heals or spamming Moonfire, I think its supposed to be rather situational and, if I understand them correctly, a matter of choice anyway.
tmenzel Nov 10th 2011 12:09PM
I couldn't be happier to hear these answers. More "clutch moments" where good play can save the raid, more "outside the box" utility, no major nerf to my primary role in exchange? Happy day to be a Druid!
Thorngrip Nov 10th 2011 12:32PM
First, this "blended talent bush" is coming up in 5.0, not 4.3.
You're exaggerating the supposed hybridization here. Druids will still choose a specialization and they will still gear up for and focus on that specific role. The changes are there to open up the option of *temporarily* assuming a different role if and when the situation calls for it. Such situations regularly come up, both predictably and unpredictably. Role-shifting is a concept *unique* to the druid class and that is the key to how it counters homogenization.
No possibility to role-shift leads to each druid spec simply becoming a nature-flavored imitation of existing classes (rogues, warriors, priests mostly) and risks homogenization because players constantly compare the abilities of their chosen druid spec with the abilities of the "model" class. Cat druids have cried for a vanish for ages, tanking druids cried for a shield wall, etc.
Thorngrip Nov 10th 2011 12:36PM
My comment above is meant to be in reply to ducss750's comment. Not sure why it didn't appear as such.