Ready Check: The human element of the Raid Finder

These past few weeks have been quite the doozy here for Ready Check as we've discussed the future of raiding in Pandaria followed by the more current notion of raid accessibility, two seemingly different topics that are heavy intertwined. This week, we'll be brushing into another similar topic as we delve into the newest tool that Blizzard is releasing in order to increase raid accessibility across the board: the new Raid Finder.
Currently on the PTR, the Raid Finder has been running rather hit or miss with some of the playerbase at the moment. A few are avid PTR-goers, while others have only just now popped into the process. For either group, they certainly don't have a lack of being vocal on the forums. Despite what problems some players have been raising, I feel and have experienced that the Raid Finder tool will go over amazingly well. A lot of the complaints that we hear now are the exact same ones that were given for the Dungeon Finder when it was being released, and while not everything from 5-man content transitions to raids, both will have the same success.
Join me as I defend the single tool that I will probably never use in this game.
Taking 25 against 10
First and foremost, one major complaint that we've seen regarding the Raid Finder is that it functions for the 25-man level instead of the 10-man level. To many players, it may seem far more logical in order to transition from 5-man dungeons to 10-man raids. Unfortunately, this is quite far from the truth. 10-man raiding is often times far less forgiving in terms of group composition. While encounters themselves can often times be made far easier in some circumstances -- a much larger space to spread out in, for example -- raid encounters often have highly specific roles that make them that much easier. In a random assortment of players, you won't always get the same spread of classes/specs.
Think back to how many times you've used the Dungeon Finder and wound up in a dungeon with a warrior, priest, and death knight DPS. Getting two plate DPSers is a little uncommon and usually doesn't happen anymore, but it can. Still, that's virtually no CC between the lot of them -- the priest could potentially Mind Control, but that has always been fairly risky. While now this may not be too much of an issue, at the onset of Cataclysm, it was a huge deal, and many people complained about similar situations occurring where instances demanded CC but their random group just didn't have it.
10-man raids aren't any different. There are many times throughout raid encounters where specs with specific tools perform exceptionally well or offer a spot of utility that helps to trivialize the encounter far more than anything else. Hunters and balance druids on Beth'tilac, for example, offer great slows and a knockback. Death knights or classes with stuns are great assets on Ragnaros; interrupts and stuns also work wonders on Alysrazor. If you pull up any five random DPSers -- assuming three healers and two tanks -- you may or may not get all of the abilities that can help in an encounter.
It is far better to reach toward 25-man content. Within the larger pool of players, you are far more likely to have access to the variety of skills and talents that can help you take down a boss.
It's all in the wrist
Another reason for having 25-man raids instead of 10-man raids is role disparity. One notion that has always plagued end-level content is the difference in the number of tanks, healers, and DPSers that are required for a raid compared to those required in a 5-man. In a dungeon, you have one tank, one healer, and three DPSers. In a 25-man raid, you have two tanks, five to six healers, with 17 to 18 DPSers. The ratios are completely off.
Going from a 5-man to a 10-man has a better transition: two tanks, three healers, and five DPSers. Yet that game demographic doesn't actually support the 5-man composition trend. We've heard it a millions times by now: DPSers wait for ages to get into dungeons whiles tanks and healers have near-instant access. If all of the Raid Finder groups fell into the 10-man category, the exact same issue would happen. Tanks would be in high demand but short supply; the need for healers would only increase, and they're sometimes just as rare as tanks.
By using the 25-man model, each group of DPS and healers requires far fewer tanks in relation to what dungeon groups need. Instead of trying to match one tank for every 3 DPSers, you have to match one tank for every eight to nine DPSers, which is a far better ratio when you look at player demographics.
Lackadaisical leadership
All of that is peanuts, though. The largest issue we see with Raid Finder is one of leadership. Running a raid isn't a simple task, especially not one a raid with 25 people. The tool may organize the raid for you, but getting all of the players together is only half the battle; being able to explain the encounters, assess the situation, and adapt is part of what it takes to be a strong raid leader. It's unfortunate, but many players just don't have what it takes to be raid leaders.
Several people have noted that there's just no check for what it takes to be a raid leader using the Raid Finder system. You click the box and suddenly the WoW gods have smiled upon you (or not, depending on how you take things). While it is understandable that players would like oversight, I feel that the position of raid leadership within this style of content is being grossly overvalued.
To start, the raid leader doesn't much have to explain the encounter much more than anyone else. How many times have you been in a dungeon where the entire group has no idea what a boss fight is like because they've never done it before? I know of plenty. Blizzard has already answered this issue by providing the Dungeon Journal. It lists all of the bosses' abilities and has neat little icons that often suggest the method in which you handle most of them. The Dungeon Journal is a brilliant tool, one that needs to be given far more recognition that it gets right now.
Aside from that, little often needs to be done by a raid leader. The only other task is assigning roles: who heals tanks, who heals raid, who is on interrupts, who takes which side, and so on. A poor leader might fail at this, but I've never seen a situation where no one steps up to do it, even on the PTR. A poor leader will always be naturally replaced. Even in the classically antisocial sub-group that stereotypically makes up a majority of WoW's playerbase, you won't come across a group of 25 people who are content to run around like blind, naked mole rats. Someone will always have enough ego to assert leadership, whether the game gives them the permission to or not.
Bolstering the human element
This is just the start of fighting some of the issues brought up about the new Raid Finder tool -- the more human element of it all, if you will. While there certainly stands a need for Blizzard to add in more oversight, such as ways to replace the leader and a few various other tools, those issues ultimately don't detract from the ability for the raid to do its job: kill bosses.
Join us next week as we talk about the balancing issues of the Raid Finder bosses.
Ready Check shares all the strategies and inside information you need to take your raiding to the next level. Be sure to look up our strategy guides to Cataclysm's 5-man instances, and for more healer-centric advice, visit Raid Rx.
Filed under: Ready Check (Raiding)






Reader Comments (Page 1 of 3)
Noyou Nov 11th 2011 3:06PM
Nice timing. This was a big topic of discussion in todays "The Queue".
Kylenne Nov 11th 2011 3:26PM
I think part of the issue with judging the Raid Finder based on the PTR is that the PTR environment really is an entirely different kettle of fish than the live servers. Obviously there are plenty of shitheads who make people's lives hell on live, but the sheer number of trolls on the PTR can't be overstated. Nor can the sheer depths of their obnoxiousness. Half of them don't even have active subs, or play on private servers. There's no consequences whatsoever because GMs rarely step in except in the most extreme circumstances. The PTR is like the spawn of /b/, to be quite honest.
Then, in addition to the CHUDs, you have people who aren't necessarily assholes but are just there for free epics and don't know about anything. They may not even be level capped on live in that class, or at all. People who know what they're doing and actually are there to try things out and test them tend to be a distinct minority, in my experience.
So, while I am totally apprehensive about Raid Finder and probably won't use it, I think writing it off entirely based solely on the PTR experience is kind of premature.
Chris Nov 11th 2011 4:08PM
I think the troll problem is still going to be pretty bad on LFR on live. There's too great a temptation with 5x more people being affected. There's also a greater chance you get one with 5x more people. This really needs to be addressed for this to be successful.
jfofla Nov 11th 2011 3:26PM
I am in a 25 Raiding Guild that is 6/7 HM in Firelands.
I intend to use LFR quite a bit.
Why? First, for Tier Set Bonus. The gear from LFR is below the gear I currently have, but it still works to trigger that all important 4 piece bonus. Eventually I will replace it, but a backup piece to help against RNG is welcome.
Secondly, I have three other 85s. My Guild has a strict no Alts in raid policy, so this tool is perfect for me.
Finally, another good reason to make it 25 man is the Epicness. The LFR Tool is designed to introduce people to raiding. Why not show them REAL Raiding, because 10 Man is Junior League.
Keldion Nov 11th 2011 3:33PM
Let's not start another tired old conflict between 10 and 25 man groups. The logistical reasons for Raid Finder to use a 25-man group are cut and dry - in the long run, it will fill more groups than a 10 because fewer tanks and healers will need to be found.
djsuursoo Nov 11th 2011 3:44PM
by that measure, 25 man raiding is the peewee raiding compared to the 40-man raids of vanilla.
and the 40-man raids of vanilla are kid's stuff compared to some of the BIG stuff in EQ.
i'm looking at you, sleeper.
i think the first attempt at a kill took something like 100 players.
ObiChad Nov 11th 2011 3:47PM
Can I upvote the first part of the post but downvote that last paragraph? That would be handy.
noel mcleod Nov 11th 2011 5:01PM
As I was reading your comment, I couldn't understand why it was downrated - until I got to the end. As a non-raiding tank, I am looking forward to LFR and thinking - oh god, I get SOOOOOOO many idiots already and I only run heroics with AT LEAST one other guildie. We've had people who are the fifth (4 guildies) pull (I'm the tank) and then say "your guild is fail" as they leave group (and we wipe). The good thing is we usually get someone we can finish with. Occasionally we get a real elitist jerk raider - who's pulling way more DPS than us who does the same stunt, but usually it was someone trying to scam a free ride. LFR is going to be interesting, unless it's relatively easy there will be a lot of people trying to scam that "free ride", which will make it fail.
But the comment on 10-man versus 25-man? I hope I don't get YOU in LFR.
ecwfrk Nov 12th 2011 12:01AM
Unfortunately, that's one of the biggest problems with large random groups in WoW.
You get people like jfofla in your groups.
How many times has it happened in a BG or RDF group where people seem to know what they're doing, everything's going great, and then out of the blue and for no apparent reason at all suddenly one guy says something in chat that is so incredibly stupid and offensive that it stops everything cold and no one wants to even try anymore?
SamLowry Nov 12th 2011 1:45AM
I think you're underestimating the desire of many folks to get the phat lewtz. They'll put up with a lot of verbal garbage if they're close to victory.
Gniver Nov 12th 2011 2:10AM
Maybe. But will they be having fun?
ObiChad Nov 11th 2011 3:26PM
Having the tool itself work for only 25 players I completely understand. As you explained, group composition is more likely be to good, and the math works out better.
I just wish one could access the difficulty level of the LFR tool with a 10 man pre-made group.
Noyou Nov 11th 2011 3:41PM
You summed it up perfectly- it is a tool. It is there to help people a) help learn the fights or b) get people to see content who might not be able to otherwise. And like jfofla suggested, for alts to bridge the gap between sets. As far as it being less social, I have to disagree, just on the fact that this will keep you with 24 strangers a lot longer than a 5-man. Yeah, they might not be from "your community" but they are people nonetheless. Perhaps at some point, they will have a mode where you can make groups from your server with the same LFR difficulty.
djsuursoo Nov 11th 2011 3:42PM
i'm willing to bet there will be a 'join as group' button.
ObiChad Nov 11th 2011 3:49PM
@djsuursoo Oh there probably is a join as group feature but then we'd have to play with 15 other people that we don't know. I love my guild. I love playing with my guild. I love our 10 man raiding team. But sometimes it's handy to have access to easier content and it's a shame that there won't be a way to do that with JUST the 10 of us.
Schmore Nov 11th 2011 3:54PM
I am looking forward to it as it does not share the same lock out as my guilds 25 man. Yes the gear will be lower but it will still give me the ability to get new gear every week until I no longer need it.
Jason Nov 11th 2011 3:58PM
I'm thinking that Blizz should have an automated raid leader that barks out strats and tells people what to do in a general sense.
For example prior to an encounter some triggers the NPC RL (maybe even a person standing before each boss that talks in /y):
Tank 1 do this, tank 2 do this, heals do a,b,c; ranged dps to one thing and switch to x when it happens; mele dps watch out for this and blah blah blah.
It's kind of been given the label of "practice mode" anyway, and it would really just take the dungeon journal to the next level. I don’t raid much anymore but this seems more realistic than expecting a consistent leader every time a group forms. My 2 cents
Tyler Caraway Nov 11th 2011 4:29PM
Bring back Crabby the Helpful Dungeon Guide!
DarkWalker Nov 11th 2011 7:38PM
@Tyler Caraway
This would be epic :)
On a more serious note, I would love if Blizzard added some kind of DBM+GTFO to the default UI, and turned it on by default for players using the LFR.
Mal Nov 11th 2011 10:14PM
You know, that's not such a bad idea.
The player who gets the Raid leader position is going to have as much power over the raid as the player who gets the Battleground leader position anyway.