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11-12-2011 @ 7:07PM
The Horde haven't been the underdogs in a long time. They have conquered many territories, killed many innocents, their bases seem to sprout like daisies and seem to just get plopped on the ground already built while the Alliance bases are still being built (Forest Song, the new bases in the Southern Barrens).
11-12-2011 @ 7:31PM
The Horde has never actually been the underdog. In Warcraft 1, a single part of the Horde destroys Azeroth and razes Stonewind Keep. In Warcraft 2, the only reason the Alliance don't lose outright is because Gul'dan split the Horde's forces at a critical moment. In Warcraft 3, you never actually get the feeling that the Horde was struggling--it only ever seemed that you were being *told* they were, and that the humans were being mean to them for the whole genocide thing.Then in World of Warcraft the Horde becomes a monolithic international organisation, essentially Hordecorp, and they go from strength to strength. TBC arrives and is almost all about the Blood Elves, then Wrath hits and we're told--instead of shown--that Garrosh "never actually won a fight in his life" Hellscream is apparently a war hero and tactical genius.Then we get to Cataclysm, and in the name of gameplay balance the Horde rides roughshod over the Alliance everywhere you turn. Then we get to Mists of Pandaria--and apparently the same gameplay equality that saw the Alliance lose quest hub after zone in a series of ridiculous defeats (Andorhal lol) is no longer a concern and we lose Theramore as well.It seems like the gameplay is more important than the story when it benefits the Horde, but the story is also more important than the gameplay when it, too, benefits the Horde.As long as they've ever been playable, the Horde has never been the underdog. There was only Lord of the Clans, the novel rushed out to explain just why Thrall was the new Warchief and why he wasn't anything like the old Horde leaders.
11-12-2011 @ 7:33PM
Well to be fair there has been many innocents lost on both sides (Camp T) and Feathermoon Stronghold was built pretty quickly. There are some others, but I really do not want to get into a #'s game.Also the Horde have the goblins on their side and the Goblins have towns in small, easy to use, boxes. lolI think the underdog comment was meant in how they "Feel" in general as a faction. Nearly all the various races are either nomads or refugees. Or like the blood elves, people who feel that they have been abandoned.
11-12-2011 @ 7:40PM
The Horde was the underdog before Garrosh came along. This was clearly conveyed in the Horde's quests, especially in the Barrens, in classic/vanilla WoW. Of course, they are no longer.
11-12-2011 @ 7:45PM
Also, if you play alliance you have to swamp forums whining how there's a Horde bias, no matter how much of a myth that is.
11-12-2011 @ 8:07PM
"Killing many innocents" has no bearing whatsoever on whether the Horde is an underdog, only on whether you like them. Your comment implies that you'd be unhappy with anything less than the total elimination of the Horde, for its crimes. That's good for RP but, as it's a contentious topic, on forums it can come across as whiny.
11-12-2011 @ 8:37PM
"Also, if you play alliance you have to swamp forums whining how there's a Horde bias, no matter how much of a myth that is."The only myth here is you think there's no Horde bias.""Killing many innocents" has no bearing whatsoever on whether the Horde is an underdog, only on whether you like them. Your comment implies that you'd be unhappy with anything less than the total elimination of the Horde, for its crimes. That's good for RP but, as it's a contentious topic, on forums it can come across as whiny."Killing many innocents has bearing on their status as an underdog since they're actively wiping out innocents because they have the power to do so, clearly not an underdog.As for me, how did you get wiping the Horde out from my comments? You're just grasping at straws, half my toons are Horde, unlike most Horde players I've played both sides and the Alliance are the underdog both in storytelling and the developer's attention to them in the game. Seriously, Forest Song is still not finished? It's still not a Draenei stronghold while the Orcs managed to upgrade most of their bases into the new Saronite-style bases while creating new ones?I was a hardcore Horde apologist from Vanilla to BC but starting with Wrath and the directions their going coupled with Horde player attitudes made me rethink my stance.
11-12-2011 @ 9:03PM
@RaingodThe Alliance players you see in the forums raging about bias and the Alliance players you frequently see accusing the Horde of all their "atrocities" and "moral defects" are just players that have an overwhelming need to be loved. That's pretty much the long and short of it.
11-13-2011 @ 7:52AM
Wrong. I never claimed that there was no Horde bias. As it happens, I think the Alliance *have* taken too much of a beating this expansion. I was expressing my dissatisfaction at the current trend for muscling in on every topic and turning it into a whine about storyline bias. If I've oversimplified your nuanced views on the subject then I apologise.Perhaps I was conflating your comment with the one below it, which summarises as "The Alliance never gets anything good; the Horde always wins, even in the RTS, except for those times that don't count; the future is an orc boot stamping on a human face, forever." Complaining about storyline balance in a single-player game is moronic. If you're upset about 'bias' pre-MMO, you might as well be crying that Tolkein clearly favours Mordor.TLDR: Yes, you have a point but, please, dry your tears.
11-13-2011 @ 10:10AM
Perhaps it's not a bias. If the theme of Warcraft over all three RTS games and the MMO really is "The Humans lose" maybe it's not a theme. Maybe it's the entire point of the game. Has it ever occurred to any of the whining Alliance players here and elsewhere on the internet that maybe the toons they play don't deserve the world they claim?-Night Elves: Name one race in the game that is more morally bankrupt than these guys. You can't can you? The Cataclysm was pretty bad, but it didn't split the world in three and jostle the Old Gods from their slumber. No matter how bad@ss a villain Deathwing thinks he is he'll never being anything compared to Malfurion Stormrage.-Humans: Racists. Enslaved all the Orcs they could find who didn't manage to make it back to the portal and escape back to their own doomed, demon infested world. They kept them in concentration camps even after they were broken and complacent. The Humans post-WC2 were just a gas chamber and an oven away from being "The Kingdom of Auschwitz". Also turning their backs on 'those dirty stuck up Elves' as the Elves were being ravaged by the Scourge. Oh and centuries of pissing on the Trolls for being so uncivilized antagonistic when the Eastern Kingdoms were actually the Troll's home continent in the first place. Good job "heroes".-Gnomes: 'Nuff said.-Draenei: "Hmm... every world we flee too like cowards gets overrun with evil and destroyed. Maybe we should stand up for ourselves for once, take it to the Burning Legion and try to spare some innocent lives ... ... ... oh wait, that would be... like... honourable and honour is a Horde concept isn't it? No no no we can't have that."-Dwarves: The only thing that the Dwarves can be faulted for is staying in the Alliance even after the Humans showed their true colours in the 3rd war. One of these days the Dwarves will need help vs. the same devastating losses as the other races, but they won't get it because they are "only Dwarves" just like Kael and the Belfs were "only Elves".-Worgen: These people are yet more victims of Night Elf stupidity and so should be a Horde race seeking revenge upon the Purple Menace, but aren't due to game balance. Oh wait did I say balance? I meant a blatant Alliance bias. Yes it's all bias. Keeping the green man down. Damn Blizz for finally giving the Alliance a properly tragic race that doesn't look good naked. Unless you pop them into Human form... or you're into furries.Well anyway; to summarize I think for three expansions the Horde have been winning because Lore-wise they deserve to win, and I think Blizzard agrees.
11-13-2011 @ 11:43AM
NavikoftheNightfallPM:You call humans racist for "mistreating" the poor orcs? Maybe you missed the part where the orcs BUTCHERED MOST OF THE MEN, WOMEN AND CHILDREN ON AN ENTIRE CONTINENT just becuase they could? After they destroyed their own world with demonic corruption? After, after they slaughtered an entire race that were their friends? What would you have done? Give them land so they can get strong and do more massacres? QQ more. The orcs should be grateful that they were even kept alive. They wouldn't have spared any humans, had they won.Oh and if you compare the humans to nazis, then I'll say the Orcs were/are WORSE than nazis. The Third Reich did actually leave some people alive in the conquered nations. The Horde did not. And the butcher they had for a warchief is the one the Orcs have named their capitol after. The Orcs have changed? Yeah, right.And then you blame the Sundering on the Night Elves. Ever thought about the fact that that was the Highborne's fault? Yep, the same Highborne that became Blood Elves. And joined the Horde. And whose leader tried to summon the Burning Legion to Azeroth.Also, you don't like that the dwarves are staying with the Alliance? I don't know, maybe it has something to do with the fact that the Horde invaded Khaz Modan and assaulted Aerie Peak?What is it with some Horde players? Playing both sides, I find it a little strange that some Horde players desperately want to rewrite history to make the Orcs feel like some kind of victims. And even stranger, they identifies the Orcs with American Indians and African Slaves. That is just mental. It was the Orcs that invaded Azeroth and slaughtered thousands of innocents, not the other way around. And still people whine about the Orcs having had their ancestral lands threatened. Guess what? Orcs don't have any ancestral lands on Azeroth! Every piece of land the orcs has is land they have stolen, by butchering, whoever lived there before, sometime in the last few decades. And there is no sign of the orc expansion stopping, since that is the Orc way. If there is land that can be conquered, the orcs will never stop attacking. Until they are all dead. I just hope that the rest of the Horde races starts to realise soon just which race they have allied themselves with.Personally, I think the Horde would be much more awesome if the entire orc race ran, massively outnumbered, straight towards their enemies, screaming Lok'tar Ogar, only to be exterminated in battle. Then we would have a much better Horde, if you ask me. And we could replace the Orcs with Ogres. The have about the same amount of intelligence, but they are better at doing what they are told. ;-)(Sorry, but the idiot orcs are getting on my nerves.)
11-14-2011 @ 3:00PM
Some of you folks have some serious video game butt hurt going on...Its a game. They've got to keep playing both sides off against each other to keep the dynamic going. But its the same players on both sides - and all the 'this and that' is in the lore to keep us engaged.Seriously, how can you take it personal 'out of game' when its all just something a pack of writers over in cubicle farm C came up with at Blizzard to keep up paying $14.95/month.If you play Horde, they're plots and stories are going to make them seem very much tragic heroes being unjustly persecuted by xenophobic Alliance races. You've been cast aside, forsaken by your own brethren for the curse put on you, enslaved by demonic forces and only freed by the strength of your heroes; all you want is a homeland to be free in, but all around enemies mass to wipe you out, enslave you, or send you back to the grave.If you play Alliance, they're plots and stories are going to make it feel like you're in a world overrun with horrors at every side destroying your lands and people, and massing a great army at your doorstep to wipe you out.- This is called "Good writing".Blizzard has managed to make both sides look like heroes from their own point of view. And make both sides look like villains when seen from the other side's point of view.Again, that's just good writing.It lets us players connect to our toons as characters.But seriously folks... its just a game.
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