Skip to Content
11-13-2011 @ 1:42PM
I've always said that the comparison between good and evil, or "good guys/bad guys" in regards to the Alliance and Horde is misplaced. They're both good, they both fight against the same evils of the world, but there is a core philosophical difference that makes cooperation between the two fleeting, at best. D&D has long had an alignment system in place in which even two "good guys" find it impossible to see eye-to-eye. The difference between Alliance and Horde is not a difference of Good vs. Evil, but of Law vs. Chaos. The Alliance are lawful - they believe that only by working together under a strict code of honor and faith that a greater good can be found - the classic Lawful Good mentality - whereas the Horde are clearly Chaotic. Freedom and the search for glory shapes the Horde, as well as a certain lust for power - to a Chaotic Good character, the ends justify the means, and a good outcome can and must be willing to be found even through questionable means.I've been sayin' it for years :)
11-13-2011 @ 11:04PM
I love this description of the factions.
11-14-2011 @ 1:47AM
Thanks :) I'm glad someone likes it.And Hobstadt, no, of course I'm not saying that a nation that attacks another nation "fun and priofit, and exterminate or exiles their enitre population, is just as good as a peaceful, non-aggressive nation". I was in fact deliberately avoiding the flame-war that has side-barred this well-written roleplay article. I was merely voicing that the Alliance and Horde both have similar goals, enemies, and challenges: they both oppose the Scourge, the Burning Legion, and the Twilight Cult, they both want what's best for their people, even if that means shedding blood in order to do it, they're both too hard-headed to realize how much they have in common with one another, and they're both led by warmongering fools that refuse to see reason.Even so, that doesn't make either faction - in at least so far as the D&D alignment system goes - evil. One is Lawful, the other Chaotic. You can argue morality, the evils and atrocities of war, and Good vs. Evil all you like, and apply arguments to either side, but when it comes down to the fundamental philosophical reason that the Alliance and Horde can't see eye to eye, it's a matter of Law vs. Chaos. And frankly, I think arguing about the morality of war and applying it to WoW is taking things a bit too seriously. This is a fantasy game, and you're given two rich options to explore when you create your hero. I chose to play Horde, and my paladin embraced the Light, became a Crusader of the Argent Crusade, and defeated the Lich King by the side of his friends and companions. How does that make my hero evil when compared to an Alliance paladin who did the same? No, the difference is that my paladin values freedom and glory, and loves being in a society that relishes individuality over tradition and fealty, which does not diminish the value of being in the opposite.They both have their virtues, and they both have their failings, to be sure. Each faction is a rich and interesting choice. And that's what this article is about. It's good to be proud of your faction, but it's not good to ridicule someone else for their opinion, or to accuse someone attempting to offer another explanation of the old Alliance vs. Horde debate of justifying genocide.To accuse someone of that would be acting like fourteen Hitlers. j/k
11-14-2011 @ 8:43AM
Except you defined the Horde expansionist politics of "we take what we want by force because we are warriors and imba and the ones we kill and plunder deserve it because they are weak" as chaotic good."Freedom and the search for glory shapes the Horde, as well as a certain lust for power - to a Chaotic Good character, the ends justify the means, and a good outcome can and must be willing to be found even through questionable means."Except for the Horde, and especially the orcs, the "good outcome" is "we get what we want and got a nice bit of warfare to get it too, woohoo".Besides Mulgore, Barrens, and Quel'Thalas, every piece of land that the Horde controls on Azeroth is taken by conquest. And the warmachine keeps rolling forward, at every border. And for the Horde, "glory" means killing people. Which basically means, the Horde will NEVER stop attacking wherever and whenever they can. I'm having huge problems defining that as Good. Unless of course, it's like a D&D playing friend of mine says. "I always play Chaotic Good. Then I can kill whoever I want whenever I want and do all kinds of selfish, heartless things and claim it's for the greater good, such as murdering random strangers and taking their money so I have gold enough to buy whatever equipment I want in order to be a better fighter and thereby fight better for the good cause."Anyway, you have a point here. The Alliance is doomed. Because they have limits to what they will do to acheive victory. The Horde does not. Also, the Alliance suck in combat. Which is, maybe, why the Kirin Tor, the Argent Crusade, and the Cenarion Circle refuse to side with the Alliance. Maybe they realize that they can fight evil more effectively by letting the Alliance lose and eventually joining the Horde?All this makes it very interesting playing Horde. And makes me feel pretty lame when I play Alliance. But we all know that Blizzard feels the same way too. ;-)
11-14-2011 @ 11:27AM
There's definitely quite a lot I can agree with in your post - and I only play Tauren, so maybe that's part of where my "It's all groovy, baby" attitude is coming from.If it hasn't come across that I have a lot of respect for the Alliance, I'm sorry about that. I really, genuinely like both factions, and I won't condone evil actions that the Horde has committed any more than I'll condone any evil action that the Alliance has committed. I will say that it's a terrible shame that the Alliance hasn't had any great victories in a while - Blizzard hasn't done a very good job of making the Alliance as compelling as the Horde. Trust me when I say that I hope that the Alliance gets there comeuppance and delivers a potent blow to the Horde (as long as it's not in Mulgore). I'd genuinely love nothing more than for Varian to take out Garrosh - and I think you'd find a lot of Hordies cheering for your faction leader, too.Man, we hate that guy. And I never said that the Alliance was doomed - I didn't mean to diminish the value of fealty and tradition, and I hope there's a turnaround. Frankly, it's simply good storytelling.In any case, it's obvious you're passionate about the Alliance, and I can respect that. And I'd certainly be willing to admit that while the *faction* is Chaotic (and I still stand by the fact that the Alliance and Horde are still fighting a war of Law vs. Chaos), our current faction leader could very well be "Chaotic Evil". But I don't think you could have said the same about Thrall's Horde, and I still think it's unfair to judge the entire faction based on the actions of the faction leader - yours included. Blizzard does it to raise tensions and passions - again, it's good storytelling. But I stand by my statement that when you make a character in the Horde - as when you make a character in the Alliance - you choose whether that character is cast in the role of Hero or Villain. And I play heroes, just as you do.And lastly, I do owe you a bit of an apology - I was teasing you a bit in my last message; it was meant as playful banter, but maybe it didn't come across that way. In any case, it doesn't seem as though I'm going to be able to make you see things any differently, and that's okay. I still stand by my previous statements. But try to remember, if you are truly passionate about this, that atrocities have been committed on both sides, and both factions have "good reason" to hate the other and to be unwilling to forgive. It's unfortunate, but then again, if it wasn't there, we wouldn't have the game that we enjoy playing so much.Cheers,- Gulthor
11-14-2011 @ 3:01PM
Thrall is awesome. He is not at all a Mary Sue. Light, I hate when people call him that.And the Tauren are not evil at all. Nor is any other Horde race, actually. Except the bloody orcs!The Orc NPCs are annoying me so much that playing Horde in Cata gets my blood pressure up. (Except Garona - she is epic.)What I hope Alliance gets in MoP as retribution for Theramore is crushing the spirit of the orcs by capturing and renaming Grom'Gol (named after Garrosh father) and Hammerfall (named after Doomhammer, also the place where he died) to Fort Lothar and Victory Point, respectively. Those victories will drive Orc morale into the ground, be a huge insult to them, and taking away A LOT of their glory, since these are places that have a huge symbolic meaning to them. (And none at all to the rest of the Horde.)Also, I wanna have a monument in Hammerfall. "Here was justice delivered upon Orgrim, butcher of thousands of innocents."And can we please get a quest to pull down and smash the monument to Grom Hellscream before we are driven out of Ashenvale? Plz Blizz? Pretty Plz? ;-)
First time? A confirmation email will be sent to you after submitting.
Members enter your username and password.
Enter your AOL or AIM screenname and password.
Please keep your comments relevant to this blog entry. Email addresses are never displayed, but they are required to confirm your comments.
When you enter your name and email address, you'll be sent a link to confirm your comment, and a password. To leave another comment, just use that password.
To create a live link, simply type the URL (including http://) or email address and we will make it a live link for you. You can put up to 3 URLs in your comments. Line breaks and paragraphs are automatically converted — no need to use <p> or <br /> tags.