The Care and Feeding of Warriors: Snapshots of tanking tomorrow

There's been a lot of news about class balance lately. Not only did the devs do a live Q&A recently (here are the important -- that is, the warrior-related -- answers), but they've also been commenting and clarifying on the forums. There's a lot of interesting stuff to consider, and so here we go considering it and the ramifications it all brings or will bring. Here's just one example.
Quote:
Q: "Currently block is a superior mastery to Blood Shield and Savage Defense. Are there any plans to bring the masteries closer together?"
Q: "Currently block is a superior mastery to Blood Shield and Savage Defense. Are there any plans to bring the masteries closer together?"
A: Yes, in 5.0. Block capping and mastery in general is currently too good for warriors and paladins. We think tank balance is close enough in 4.3 that dramatic overhauls could make matters worse. In 5.0 we will change things.
Right now, mastery is decent for arms, terrible for fury, and very solid for protection warriors. Apparently, it's too good for protection right now. While both paladins and warriors use block somewhat differently (Critical Block and Shield Block work together very well), it's pretty easy for either to get pretty high block. Since the active mitigation tanking model didn't manifest in time for patch 4.3, it seems likely that the mastery and block issue will be addressed when that rolls out. It's frustrating, but right now all we can do is wait and see.
Where we've already been
We'll try and look at the more interesting ideas from the thread now. Things we won't be looking at because they're simple answers or because we've covered them before:
- Slam is going to be an arms-only ability. Wild Strike will replace it for fury warriors using Bloodsurge. Wild Strike will be an off-hand strike, no cast time, and Bloodsurge will allow you three cheap Wild Strikes on a reduced cooldown. Wild Strike has the MS debuff, replacing Furious Attacks in the fury tool kit.
- Warriors will have a basic Throw ability and Heroic Throw. Whether or not we'll still have Shattering Throw didn't come up in the Q&A.
- Both arms and protection will have access to Blood and Thunder.
- Intercept will be gone in patch 5.0 because warriors will be able to charge in all three stances, making it superfluous.
Quote:
Q: "It also looks like the attack speed slow debuff is definitely going away, since feral tanks won't get Infected Wounds. We knew it might be, but it's more certain now."
A: This is a bit confusing, but bear with us. The attack speed debuff causes some technical problems on some encounters. However, we think Thunder Clap as an ability is more interesting than Demo Shout. The former does some damage, has a shorter range, has benefits aside from applying the debuff, etc. So our plan is to have Thunder Clap, Hammer of the Righteous, one of the DK diseases and Thrash apply the 10% physical damage debuff and remove Demo Shout and the like as well as the attack speed debuff. Creatures would just be balanced around their normal attack speeds.Q: "It also looks like the attack speed slow debuff is definitely going away, since feral tanks won't get Infected Wounds. We knew it might be, but it's more certain now."
I find this interesting on a lot of levels. For one, whether or not the attack speed debuff caused technical problems on encounters or not, for a lot of us it's been beaten into our heads over the years that you have to have it. Furthermore, swapping over the Demo Shout debuff and then getting rid of Demo is another one of those Buddhas being met on the road by a semi. We're really into sacred-cow-slaughtering territory when Demo Shout and Sunder Armor are getting booted off of the tanking bus.
I'm sure Blizzard can balance encounters around a reduced amount of tanking debuffs. It's more conceptual than anything else. Frankly, it's probably better if we're intending an active mitigation model to pare down some of the must-hit tanking abilities to make room for new ones. And with Blood and Thunder remaining a baseline protection ability, it makes sense for Thunder Clap to survive over Demo Shout.
Tank like you've never tanked before
But what this is all saying to me is that if you're a warrior tank now, you need to brace yourself for some radical design changes in 5.0. (They may also be shredding and/or tubular -- I'm not sure yet.) If you've been tanking long-term like I have, you know full well that warriors still hold a lot of design elements as a legacy from being the only viable tank from original WoW launch. Expect those legacies to finally be done away with. Don't be surprised when it happens. With a fifth tanking class incoming, now is the best time to really get down to trying to establish tanking parity. And it definitely looks like that's exactly where we're going.
There are more problems when one stat is too good aside from players with that stat simply becoming too powerful. When any one secondary stat is too good, then players understandably view any gear without that stat as "garbage." DPS specs can stack hit / expertise to the cap and then focus on say haste, crit or mastery. Right now, plate tanks don't have a lot of attractive stats after they have capped mastery, except for dodge and parry which also affect pushing hits off the table the same as mastery does. Dodge and parry aren't even meaningfully different from each other, except for the (somewhat sophisticated) games you can play with trying to avoid diminishing returns.
In 5.0, tanks will care about hit and expertise, because those will become survival stats: if your hits don't connect, you won't have the resources needed for some of your defensive abilities (the less critical ones like Shield Block, but not Shield Wall). That alone will make tank gearing a little more interesting. If we decrease the amount of block, or the value of a point of mastery, or add diminishing returns to block, then we can still make mastery a useful stat without it being the god stat. Heck, we're probably in a place with tank balance today where we could reconsider having bonus Stamina or armor, which we stopped doing a couple of years ago because they were the previous god stats.
But it should be evident from that wall of text, that we're not talking about simple changes here. They are fairly extensive changes with a lot of risk. There is a risk players won't get the memo and not understand that block capping either isn't as good as it once was or isn't viable at all. There is a risk that paladins and warriors go from being relatively balanced to too weak. There is a risk that in our noble attempts to fix them from being too weak (such as buffing their armor, health or cooldowns) that the might become too powerful. We're signing up to take that risk in 5.0 when we have more time to iterate and collect feedback and massive class changes are more expected.
In 5.0, tanks will care about hit and expertise, because those will become survival stats: if your hits don't connect, you won't have the resources needed for some of your defensive abilities (the less critical ones like Shield Block, but not Shield Wall). That alone will make tank gearing a little more interesting. If we decrease the amount of block, or the value of a point of mastery, or add diminishing returns to block, then we can still make mastery a useful stat without it being the god stat. Heck, we're probably in a place with tank balance today where we could reconsider having bonus Stamina or armor, which we stopped doing a couple of years ago because they were the previous god stats.
But it should be evident from that wall of text, that we're not talking about simple changes here. They are fairly extensive changes with a lot of risk. There is a risk players won't get the memo and not understand that block capping either isn't as good as it once was or isn't viable at all. There is a risk that paladins and warriors go from being relatively balanced to too weak. There is a risk that in our noble attempts to fix them from being too weak (such as buffing their armor, health or cooldowns) that the might become too powerful. We're signing up to take that risk in 5.0 when we have more time to iterate and collect feedback and massive class changes are more expected.
Tanks tend to look for the most survival and gear appropriately. In Wrath, that meant stacking stamina and armor and relying on bottomless healer mana to keep their mana-sponge buttocks upright. In Cata, warrior tanks have looked for dodge and mastery, because those stats (and parry) provide avoidance and/or mitigation of incoming damage, and damage you don't take is damage that doesn't cost limited healer mana to recover from. Hit and expertise simply were not attractive to most tanks, which led to threat issues for beginner tanks who were doing what the tanks in raids did and stacking survival over threat stats. This led to threat being changed to put more butts in the tanking seat, since there's a little-known secret I'll share with you now:
Tanking is not actually fun.

What makes being a tank fun is the exercise of skill in a high-performance role (you can't suck as the tank and get away with it), the camaraderie of the tanking corps in a guild, the consummate performance thrill of tanking a PUG and just pulling off complex mechanics with style and aplomb. Knowing your gearing, executing your abilities, staying alive through hard fights and bringing the other four, nine or 24 other people through with you is all terribly intoxicating.
But the mechanical game of tanking, the actual job, is constraint and labor. It's work. It's not fun. Anything you can do to reduce the work you have to do and the work your healer has to do, you're going to do. Throwing the responsibility for threat management onto the DPS or letting it get buffed to compensate for your gearing for survival is a no-brainer. You'll do it every time.
To sum it up again: Tanking isn't fun, but being a good tank is. So the entirety of the 5.0 tanking redesign is at least partially aimed at making tanking itself fun, by completely embracing the tanking tendency to emphasize survival and making that the game. By doing that, not only do more stats matter (which means gear can be designed that actually requires some thought instead of "reforge everything to survival stats" because a lot more stuff will be survival stats), but an active, button-hitting, battlefield-scanning playstyle will keep you alive. Knowing how to manage your resources will keep you up; it will allow you to be a good tank and show it.
I'm literally giddy with anticipation of this new approach and very much looking forward to hearing more about it. The only way I could be happier is if someone made a post saying "Yes, you'll be able to tank with a fury spec and Titan's Grip," because that's pretty much what I've wanted to do for three years now.
Next week, we'll be discussing either 4.3 DPS mechanics or heroic Ragnaros.
Filed under: Warrior, Analysis / Opinion, (Warrior) The Care and Feeding of Warriors, Cataclysm, Mists of Pandaria






Reader Comments (Page 1 of 3)
Killik Nov 12th 2011 8:20PM
With the increased importance of hit & expertise on gear, along with buffs to threat, I wonder what this means for Vengeance as a mechanic.
Sleutel Nov 15th 2011 7:45PM
Vengeance hasn't been about threat for a long time now. In its current state, it's great for multi-tank fights where you need to swap bosses or adds around, because (a) it procs your taunt and (b) it keeps your Vengeance stacking when you're not getting hit. It would also be useful on any fight where you expect to have to peel adds off DPS or healers. Really, all the threat buff did was make Vig useless in 99% of five-mans; the raid utility hasn't changed since it stopped transferring threat.
On the subject of stats, though, I'm confused why Rossi would mention *Dodge* and Mastery, with Parry as an aside, in a *Warrior* column. Every Protection Warrior is probably 2/2 Hold the Line, which specifically synergizes with *Parry*, making it definitely preferable to Dodge for us (versus Paladins or DKs, who AFAIK treat Dodge and Parry equally).
Sleutel Nov 15th 2011 7:47PM
Wow, I'm a complete moron. I read "Vengeance," thought "Vigilance," and then wrote "Vengeance." HERP A DERP.
Given how badly tanks lag behind DPS in damage, especially by the end of an expansion, I don't see Vengeance going away. It's an important stat to keep tanks from lagging too far behind DPS.
Killik Nov 15th 2011 8:06PM
I think you're right - iirc this "5x damage = threat" stuff is just a bandaid until the next great leap forward.
brihelwigspam Nov 12th 2011 8:45PM
I know warriors are a passionate lot but I can't help but notice the diminishing resistance to such radical design ideas that just a few years ago would of set the forums ablaze. I've never known many warrior tanks to look at changes like this and say "oh we'll, at least we have a better chance to be middle of the pack". I'm not trying to insult or sc
Jordan Nov 15th 2011 7:35PM
I'm a bit nervous, to be honest, as a Warrior Tank I honesty do enjoy tanking as a whole. I like popping into a dungeon and having a group, who's wiped ten times on the first boss in ZG go "Oh please don't suck!" and then one shotting every boss after showing up and getting that "Thanks!" - I enjoy it from start to finish.
I think warriors are probably one of the best Tanks out there, and it's just a blast - I run with a Druid tank in raids and honestly we have fun even when failing. The challenge is the fun part, if it were too easy then it's just not worth the effort to do it. I love hearing the raid leading asking me "Switch from DPS to Tank" because as DPS I'm just a number - occasionally top but usually second or third on a roster - as a Tank I'm one of two or just one for some fights, and it rocks.
So 5.0 is making me /cower atm because I honesty thought that Mastery/Pa/Do was a nice combo - I'm not stacking All Stam and Armor I'm stacking Mastery and keeping Parry and Dodge in a close knit group. I'm making sure my health isn't too high in some fights, making sure my dodge is higher for others... I kinda thought it was all well and polished ATM... that might be because I'm not a DK or Druid though (though I haven't heard him complain in the least.)
Blayze Nov 13th 2011 6:55AM
After the constant stream of nerfs we got in vanilla because Blizzard decided to balance all Warriors around the top whatever percent, I think a large portion of the Warrior community have just given up caring about things.
brihelwigspam Nov 12th 2011 8:45PM
..... insult or troll, I honestly feel that raw emotion crawling away from a stoic and conservative community. Maybe I missed the memo in the years between but being told your losing sunder and demo and the best reply is passive at best. Rise up, ravage the forums, I am not entertained!
Fat fingers on iPhone two post tommy
Jordan Nov 12th 2011 11:57PM
we're not losing Demo, it's being rolled into TC - which is fine, because I kinda hated having to watch Demo and refreshing it. And Sunder armor is more or less an effect of devastate (unless they are removing the Sunder Armor mechanic completely, but that means similar affects like Farie Fire and such are gone for Druid tanks, so the field is even.)
Noyou Nov 12th 2011 9:07PM
What I would love for them to do is make up their f-ing minds. It seems like every couple patches- and even GC is guilty of this, they say X is too good (or no good) and we are going to go with Y. I mean the constant back and forth. I know it's tough to balance, maybe it's just the rhetoric and the constant backtracking. One patch it's "tanking is boring", the next patch, "tanking is too easy, we want to make it more challenging", then, "Tanking is too hard, it feels like a chore".
thawedtheorc Nov 13th 2011 7:34AM
I try not get into the seemingly constant changes Blizz makes. As a healer I have just started noticing warriors are becoming as easy to heal as the other class. Now the warriors in my guild have not been an issue, but those jokers live and breathe the game compared to most players. I do still run across the ones who have rage generation problems, but that may very well be inexperience.
Part of WoW is the constant back and forth and I accepted a long time ago, the balance act is very hard and it will never end.
Still, looking back at all the changes to classes in Cata, I still see the devs saying the exact things about the exact issues we saw in Wrath and BC.
One thing I am very pleased about is the lack of PvP overshadowing PvE as it was by the end of Wrath. It got so bad that some of my long time friends just quit the game after spending months gearing and tweaking a toon only to see a patch push through to make them start the process all over again. Now THAT was not any fun at all.
When I see someone raging over the changes to their class I chalk it up to immaturity and a lack of skill on how to express their frustrations. Although as much as I am looking forward to the next expansion, a small voice of doubt has me praying this will not be a SWGish amount of change to the game. So I am choosing to have faith in the folks at Blizz. They do know more about the game than me.
Therinor Nov 13th 2011 2:31PM
I agree to this very much, Noyou. Yes, I am sure it isn't easy to balance the different tanking classes, make sure that the gear is correctly itemized etc, but you know... on one hand, they seem to aim at making some things easier, on the other hand it looks as if there will be a major change again, requiring a total change of focus when it comes to stats... AGAIN.
I was hoping that the introduction of mastery makes things easier to get your gear right, to hit the stats you need to function etc, and for a while, that seemed to work, and now it seems to change a lot again.
I don't mind theory-crafting, don't mind doing a bit of research to make sure I go for the right stats, but at the same time, I don't really feel happy to have to redo that again every patch, for the priority to change, going from "stack this as much as you can" to "ok, balance these two stats, make sure you don't have more of that one over the other, and oh, before you do, also make sure you hit these two caps".
If they want to make things a bit more easy and accessible for new and even old players, I wish they'd try not to turn everything 180 degrees every few months.
As I said, I dont mind keeping up to date, trying to make sure I get the stats right. Then again, there are some players who don't, and it shows when you end up in a PUG with a pally who, I guess because he was still kinda stuck in Wrath, had stacked stamina like a madman, and had almost no block rating. We went through 4 healers or so that night, until he left. I told him that maybe, he'd like to rethink his stats priority, but I dont know if he ever did, and that was just one example.
Sure, you will always have cases like that, tanks who try to tank in the wrong spec or have int gear (as prot warrior) or whatever, but for the sake of casual or returning players, I sometimes wish stuff wouldnt get drastically changed so often, like when it comes to stats
Hurbster Nov 12th 2011 9:18PM
Goodness, that poor warrior in the top picture seems to have his helm spikes going through his pauldrons. That can't be safe.
Stilhelm Nov 12th 2011 11:22PM
Those aren't his helm spikes, they are his horns. It still doesn't look comfortable...
Jordan Nov 15th 2011 7:44PM
That's when you ask your troll friend with a hack-saw to take the sides down a bit (or your goblin buddy with a mechnized buzz saw.) - and you get the "cut horns" look - if you're feeling fancy you can pop a pair of brass end caps on either side! (Pretty sure Tauren horns fall off/grow back from time to time... otherwise the barber shops are butchers!)
ahsanali Nov 12th 2011 9:24PM
There would be fire and brimstone spewing on the forums if sunder and demo were taken from us and given to another class. That the game is being redesigned to remove them entirely is a different thing and something to look forward to.
I don't find hitting devastate three times on a boss to reduce his armor or keeping demo shout up terribly engaging gameplay... it is something we have to do to maximize performance. Replacing those muscle-memory activities with something more active and dynamic is a win in my eyes.
EverythingRuned Nov 12th 2011 9:46PM
Interesting tidbit, if bosses did more magic/spell damage the dk/druid masteries would be the overpowered ones.
It's all about encounter design...
paulmewis Nov 13th 2011 8:30AM
Despite the fact they only absorb physical damage.
http://www.wowhead.com/spell=62600
http://www.wowhead.com/spell=77535
EverythingRuned Nov 13th 2011 10:28AM
Damn, i'm so pro...
martialoffrance Nov 12th 2011 9:49PM
Entitlement minded Casuals and 45 year olds ruined WoW with their entitlement mentality. Go away those who refuse to work for things just becuase you have kids and a job.