Breakfast Topic: What do you want from 5-man content?
by Chris Clow 
Nov 14th 2011 at 8:00AM
A good amount of the WoW population spends the majority of its endgame time in 5-man dungeons. Blizzard is acutely aware of this, and it's striven to make new and engaging 5-mans. The 5-mans were more or less left alone in The Burning Crusade, with only one new dungeon during the entire tier, and the only major innovation was the wave system used in Opening the Dark Portal, which was later mimicked in Violet Hold and The Culling of Stratholme. In Wrath, Blizzard released four new dungeons over the course of the expansion and added in vehicle-based encounters in Trial of the Champion and the Oculus (which thankfully haven't been reproduced anywhere else yet). During Cataclysm, Blizzard has already released two new instances and announced plans for three more in the upcoming 4.3 patch. It's added interactive environments, randomized bosses, and some of the most complex 5-man encounters to date.
So what is Blizzard going to add next? Since Wrath, new raid tiers are accompanied by new raid meta-achievement mounts. While raid encounters are unquestionably more difficult, it'd be a nice nod to the players who can't raid for some reason or another to have a new mount to aspire to in 5-man content. A new Glory of the Hero mount for each tier of 5-mans that come out would be a good touch and a way to make 5-man content feel a little bit more connected to the storyline. Blizzard already implemented nine achievements tied to Zul'Aman and Zul'Gurub, so tying them into a meta wouldn't be much of an issue.
What would you like to see in the future of 5 man content?
Filed under: Breakfast Topics, Guest Posts
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 7)
Jamie Nov 14th 2011 8:06AM
I'd have to say I'd love to have randomly generated dungeons, with randomly placed bosses.
The last time I recall an idea so well executed was Pikmin 2's challenge mode.
Often times the problem is that you run the content day in, day out to gear up and it becomes tiresome.
Or alternatively look into the tuning of 5-mans, I really felt the ICC dungeons had it spot on. They rewarded purple pixels and they required you to think about what you were doing. All in all, more of the same of those ICC dungeons, please!
Noyou Nov 14th 2011 8:16AM
Yeah, I loved the ICC 5-mans. Those were the first dungeons I ran almost as soon as they came out. Loved the lore aspect in there and learning the fights on the fly was fun. Hoping these next 3 live up to those.
Juzelle Nov 14th 2011 9:02AM
the ICC dungeons were pretty great. Heroic HOR, while easy, was such a refreshing noob check.
I know it's pretty eye-roll worthy, but I was kind of a fan of Violet Hold, the whole increasing waves of mobs/ random bosses thing was really fun, and it was all just reaction time/reflexes.
maybe a version of that that was.. you know.. faster.
DarkWalker Nov 14th 2011 9:31AM
Regarding difficulty and size, Heroic ICC 5-mans were the sweet spot for me. I loved doing them.
I also agree that more randomized dungeons, including random layouts, would be sweet. And Blizzard does have the technical expertise due to it's upcoming Diablo game. This randomization might be more appropriate for the upcoming PvE Scenarios, though.
Jack Mynock Nov 14th 2011 10:12AM
The ICC 5-mans were really good with the exception of HoR... unless you got the rare tank that would actually do the first part of the dungeon the way it was meant to be done. Standing in the corner of that little room was not fun at all and was pretty hard on people without great computers. IMO, H HoR was a bit overtuned for pugs.
loop_not_defined Nov 14th 2011 10:32AM
I would rather have custom-crafted epic experiences filled with lore than random forgettable dungeons with no real meat behind it.
xvkarbear Nov 14th 2011 10:35AM
@noyou
Did you ever heal halls of reflection in a pug? Because it was a lesson in pain.
People use to drop group as soon as they seen it was HoR because it was such a gamble if the group could clear the thing or not.
I want less dungeons with the difficulty of HoR and Jin'do. I don't mind some difficulty, but some dungeon encounters punish healers because they're too complex for pugs.
Schadenfreude Nov 14th 2011 10:42AM
I had trouble in h hor as well in pugs. It was fine with my guild, since they know how to play, but pugs would get mad and leave when I couldn't carry them through that first fight as tank or healer. And nothing enrages me like getting abuse from randoms for not carrying people.
"Guys, I need you to use your interrupts and stuns here."
"Lol bad tank"
*bites keyboard in half*
Ian Nov 14th 2011 11:43AM
In what way could a dungeon be randomized as to offer sufficient variety, but not be full of potential bugs or exploits.
There would have to be fixed options for terrain or environments, at least as one continuous zone. Could be more varied with a portal or other instanced sub-zone transportation system.
Would really have to be limited locations within any given region for trash, and/or bosses.
Mechanics such as space requirements or environmental hazards would make their locations predictable.
kulhanek.jeff Nov 14th 2011 8:07AM
I want one thing and one thing only from my 5 man dungeons. A dungeon that takes about 30 minutes or less to complete. Many of us don't have 2 hours to put into a dungeon. They don't have to be the AoE fest that was WotLK and bosses can have fun mechanics, but six or seven bosses is a bit much.
Noyou Nov 14th 2011 8:14AM
Amen. And it's only fair. I don't run a whole lot of dungeons, but I feel for those who do. I get slightly ADD when I get into dungeons. 30-40 min seems to be my threshold. With this new challenge mode, that gives the hard cores something to play with. I just like going to see what they look like. Very rarely are their dungeons I will run over and over. With how fast gear turns over, it makes sense to make the process faster.
ravyncat Nov 14th 2011 9:20AM
That is the main thing I want too.
Hard mechanics are ok; they can be learned. Dungeons that run an hour or more though are just too long.
I lose focus after about 45 minutes of well...anything. And then I make stupid mistakes and I really hate the mechanics where one mistake by one person will wipe the group. That is not fun. Kill me sure, but not everyone else.
(And really, I think one mistake shouldn't kill people either. I, for one, can't ever uphold a perfect playstyle. *shrug*)
Zachariahs Nov 14th 2011 10:02AM
This is pretty much exactly what I came here to say. A dungeon with 2-3 bossess, and 1 or 2 add pulls in between. They can still be difficult, but a half dozen add pulls between each of 4-6 bosses is too much. Make them short and sweet.
BlackTiger Nov 14th 2011 10:11AM
"Many of us don't have 2 hours to put into a dungeon."
Excuse me, which dungeon takes more than 25 minutes? Even ZA and ZG take 25 minutes.
kulhanek.jeff Nov 14th 2011 10:22AM
"Excuse me, which dungeon takes more than 25 minutes? Even ZA and ZG take 25 minutes."
I have yet to run either of those dungeons in less than 40 minutes. Further, Deadmines and Hall of Orgination are extremely long dungeons.
Smashbolt Nov 14th 2011 10:52AM
Yeah, I don't quite understand that either... people want short 20-30 minute dungeons, and they want them to be at least moderately difficult, and then they say that current dungeons don't accomplish this.
The only Tier 1 heroics that can't be done in that time frame are SFK, DM, and maybe GB. ZA and ZG can be done in about 30 minutes with a really solid group, and come 4.3, the number of bosses required is being slashed to make runs even quicker.
I ran heroic Deadmines last night in a really slow group and stuck it out for the whole thing. Here's why it was so slow:
- the tank was new and didn't know what to do
- three of them were guildies and were explaining pulls on vent to the tank
- the tank had some serious connection issues
- pauses of 3 minutes or more after most pulls (trash or boss)
- wipes on Helix, Foe Reaper and Cookie
- one DPS was 18k, the others 4-7k
That right there describes possibly the slowest dungeon run I've EVER had. Even with ALL of that, my run was 1h 45m - most of it spent not playing the game.
Saying heroics take 2 hours now is straight up hyperbole. They used to when each boss and trash pack incurred at lease one wipe. Nowadays though, even with low DPS or a wipe or two, so long as people don't AFK, it STILL only takes about 45 minutes for most of the dungeons.
eel5pe Nov 14th 2011 11:18AM
Dude, a bear run takes 25 minutes, and that's not including killing the last two bosses. Do you really expect your average PuG to clear the entire dungeon in that amount of time?
Eternauta Nov 14th 2011 4:01PM
@Smashbolt Not everybody has purple raid gear.
I don't know you guys, but when I say I want 20-25 minute long 5-mans, I mean I want that for a fresh lvl 85 (or 90 in MoP) in decent quest or crafted blues who actually needs the gear that drops there, and doesn't go just for the valor points.
ravyncat Nov 14th 2011 4:30PM
Yeah, that is what I meant too.
I do not have any raid gear and it shows when I do randoms. I don't think they should be so terrible and punishing for the people that use them as their sole endgame.
Not everyone can be or wants to be a raider.
Brouck Nov 14th 2011 8:32PM
I don't even think it's the time it takes to complete a heroic that bothers most people, rather it is the time in queue (unless you're a tank/healer) that is so incredibly bothersome. A 45 minute heroic, coupled with a 30 minute queue time equates to well over an hour. Yet, there is no universal solution for fixing our tank shortage problems.