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All of the latest Mists of Pandaria newsBreakfast Topic: What do you want from 5-man content?
by Chris Clow 
Nov 14th 2011 at 8:00AM
A good amount of the WoW population spends the majority of its endgame time in 5-man dungeons. Blizzard is acutely aware of this, and it's striven to make new and engaging 5-mans. The 5-mans were more or less left alone in The Burning Crusade, with only one new dungeon during the entire tier, and the only major innovation was the wave system used in Opening the Dark Portal, which was later mimicked in Violet Hold and The Culling of Stratholme. In Wrath, Blizzard released four new dungeons over the course of the expansion and added in vehicle-based encounters in Trial of the Champion and the Oculus (which thankfully haven't been reproduced anywhere else yet). During Cataclysm, Blizzard has already released two new instances and announced plans for three more in the upcoming 4.3 patch. It's added interactive environments, randomized bosses, and some of the most complex 5-man encounters to date.
So what is Blizzard going to add next? Since Wrath, new raid tiers are accompanied by new raid meta-achievement mounts. While raid encounters are unquestionably more difficult, it'd be a nice nod to the players who can't raid for some reason or another to have a new mount to aspire to in 5-man content. A new Glory of the Hero mount for each tier of 5-mans that come out would be a good touch and a way to make 5-man content feel a little bit more connected to the storyline. Blizzard already implemented nine achievements tied to Zul'Aman and Zul'Gurub, so tying them into a meta wouldn't be much of an issue.
What would you like to see in the future of 5 man content?
Filed under: Breakfast Topics, Guest Posts
Reader Comments (Page 3 of 7)
MattKrotzer Nov 14th 2011 9:40AM
If you don't raid, you don't need raid level gear. That's the long and short of it, really.
Smashbolt Nov 14th 2011 11:01AM
This is really the fallout of a system wherein it's "required" for raiders to play 5-player content that they massively outgear.
If raiders had no reason to run heroics other than genuinely wanting to, most of those problems disappear - as well as any reason for non-raiders to want raid gear other than "me-too" attitudes.
loop_not_defined Nov 14th 2011 11:03AM
It's not like the gear curve isn't increasing for you if you don't raid. There's always new VP gear, old VP gear reduced to JP, and often new dungeons with new gear.
Boobah Nov 14th 2011 12:50PM
The gear snobs are an issue, but quite frankly it's not something that's really Blizzard's fault. When folks are complaining that you're only pulling 7kish DPS in a Cataclysm launch heroic, they're out of their minds, since I don't know about anybody else, but I finished every one of those without anyone in the group pulling more than that (with the exception of gimmick fights like Ozumat.) pre-nerf.
When you drop in to one of those dungeons, you have to know that there are going to be characters just gearing up there; it's THEIR content, not Raidy McL33typants's, and if you can't handle those less-geared than you showing up, get out and form your elitist team yourself.
boil.san Nov 14th 2011 8:17AM
More Purple, less Pain…! ;^p
bruce Nov 14th 2011 8:19AM
There should be 2 different types of dungeons. The 30-45min fun but challenging blast and then there should be the BRD OMFG takes hours dungeon crawl.
MattKrotzer Nov 14th 2011 8:51AM
Yup. As I said (further down the page) I'd love for the occasional BRD-style dungeon, where there's exploration and varying paths to take. BRD is a great dungeon, because it feels like an actual place, rather than a straight line to ever-more-difficult bosses. Because why would you line up like that?
When I go to work, it's not a straight line from me to my boss, to his boss...
Diop Nov 14th 2011 10:17AM
Problem is they could never have the long dungeon crawl ones in the RDF because that would annoy people expecting a 20min blast and getting a 2 hour dungeon crawl, equally if it dropped better loot people would feel compelled to run it when they don't want to, and if it drops same ilvl I'm not sure how much people would run it.
My solution would be an option to join up themed dungeons into a 'super dungeon'. I.e. Remember the ICC 5mans, what if there was a mode that basically challenged you to start in FOS, and work your way through to escaping the Lich King, they could even bump up the difficulty for this. The rewards on completion would be a bucket of valor (maybe half the amount your need weekly, or a third), and a chest that would drop 1-2 more drops from each boss, so effectively you get 2-3 loot drops of each boss, but only if you complete it.
Since the loot isn't better I don't think people would feel they had to do it against their will, but there's enough advantages that those who enjoy dungeon crawls would want to do it, and it wouldn't require too much work on Blizz's behalf since all art assets, dungeon layouts and boss mechanics are there, they might just have to add in some more trash and think of a good way to connect the dungeons (or just go LOL PORTALS).
loop_not_defined Nov 14th 2011 10:30AM
Blizzard's new direction, going forward, is to create 30-45 minute dungeons, and increase participation in Raids for the long drawn-out experience (see: LFR).
LFD itself already has signs of this. In 4.3, both first tier Heroics and second tier Heroics will reward the same number of JP/VP.
rodmin Nov 14th 2011 8:21AM
There was an innovation that Mr. Chris forgot in WotLK.
The final encounter in Halls of Reflection on WotLK.
We had to run away from the Lich King, not kill him. And while so we had to protect Jaina/Sylvanas from all the dangers until we were eventually rescued.
Story-based encounters! This is what i long for.
Encounters in which the objective is not to kill a boss, but to contribute to a common goal, being in this case the escape. Cataclysm had a similar encounter with Neptulon's protection, and Ozumat (the kraken), even though considered as the end boss in the encounter, did not contribute during the entire fight.
And if i remember, Halls of Stone had us protecting Brann as well, so i count him on this story-based encounter.
What i would like to see was something similar, in which we help the story move on (although killing a major boss could be considered history too). Maybe adding in MoP the assistance of a Pandaren NPC looking for a valuable item within a throne room full of evil guards, or perhaps assisting the retreat of civillians from the encounter's building (all while killing big mobs and possibly a captain), and even destroying a evil shrine while containing threat from an immortal Sha (he'll not die when the shrine is destroyed, he can be a raid boss later on for some "payback time").
These kind of encounters that make the story move foward is what i would L-O-V-E to see more in the upcoming expansions. Blizz, if you're reading this, get to work ASAP!
it's not that Nov 15th 2011 10:43AM
I agree, those kinds of encounters are fun, but they are not a LK innovation. See Escape from Durnholde (BC) and a DM tribute run (1.x).
Dm tribute run, the goal was to sneak your way past all the bosses until you got to the Ogre King. Then when you killed the King, all the bosses contributed to the tribute chest. The more bosses you avoided, the more loot you got.
Actually, I think many instances have pretty good story behind them. Typically, the ones that get released with the xpac have a lot of lore, but it's built into the quests or the surrounding zone. (See fore example, Halls of Lightning in Storm Peaks and Strat in original EPL.)
Tzefira Nov 14th 2011 8:22AM
You forgot to mention Halls of Reflection. Those waves drowned many a group.
I personally love the meta achievements for the 5-mans. Some are challenging enough (when not incredibly overgeared) to be really worth it when that achieve flash lights up my screen.
I also can't wait for the redoing of Scarlet Monastery and SFK in MoP. That is going to be fun.
razion Nov 14th 2011 8:25AM
I like five-mans to be a sort of preview before raids. I like in concept The Oculus as a comparison, because the drakes you use in the dungeon prepared you for the final phase in the fight against Malygos. But more than that, I like how the five man not only prepared you for the fight, but that the five-man was also directly tied into the *same story* (that being the Nexus War).
I think more five-mans should share story strings, while at the same time preparing you for raid fights. But, to be more specific, only for the final boss. Bosses in dungeons still need to be interesting and different, but having them serve as a learning tool for further content would be nice--as long as the learning isn't put into bosses that are hidden away that people wouldn't touch (such as hidden bosses that have a tendency to be skipped over).
MattKrotzer Nov 14th 2011 8:32AM
I'd love for there to be the occasional "big" dungeon, like the old Blackrock Depths. One that felt like a dungeon, rather than a linear path. People complain about the speed at which Cataclysm's 5-man content grew stale, but they use the number of dungeons as the reason.
I feel that the reason is more because it's vastly uninteresting to just go down a single path over and over. Go in, go to boss. Go further to next boss. Then to the last boss.
Why would our enemies realistically build like this? You think the main boss likes having a long-ass walk every time they want to go out and do something? Grim Batol is probably the best, in terms of feeling like a real place, in the new content. Sure, you really DON'T have much choice in your path, but it feels like you COULD.
Giving us a bit more of a free-form experience, where we can choose what we want to do within the dungeon, seems way cooler to me.
Jasonthedce Nov 14th 2011 9:41AM
Maybe you could hit any boss in any order, and which order you choose unlocks different loot drops. Or it drops some cool-looking transmog-only gear. It would have to be structured such that one route isn't inherently much slower than another, or everyone will just default to the old style of blazing through the fastest route possible. While I like the illusion of choice that something like Grim Batol provides in that it feels like a real place, why not give actual choice in the dungeons?
MattKrotzer Nov 14th 2011 9:49AM
Agreed. I'm all for actual choice. The problem is the RDF and its mechanics. We have a measure of actual choice in Halls of Origination, but unless a special request is made, nobody clears the top level, or even goes outside for the Marrowgar clone. They just go for the boss that "counts" to end it, and get out with their VP ASAP.
Zachariahs Nov 14th 2011 10:11AM
I agree it would be cool, but only like the first couple times in there. Then you would see ppl drop out upon entering because of how long it is. The only way they would be able to do that is to only have you down a couple of the bosses, but if they did that, then that's all ppl would want to do. They wouldn't want to complete the whole thing.
MattKrotzer Nov 14th 2011 10:13AM
And therein lies the problem. The RDF has cultivated a playerbase of the lazy and unmotivated, who are only out for fast rewards.
vincentmagius Nov 14th 2011 10:58AM
I'm all for skipping bosses on occasion. Sometimes I don't want to kill every single boss. Probably the best answer is to keep the bosses skippable, but give a benefit for killing the one's you don't need. Scaling if enough bosses.
If it's a mount, increasing chance with each optional boss, but probably not a 100% guarantee. Maybe a satchel of some kind. It's hard to say. You want something good enough to try, but not feel like you are forced to get it and is not OP.
Puntable Nov 14th 2011 11:02AM
Maybe the new LFR would be more suited to "big" dungeons, if they add a 10-man mode. In the past when the decided to re-tune an old raid, they HAD to make it for 5-man. Maybe looking forward, when they decide to re-tune an old dungeon, they can leave it as a raid instead of making it a 5-man.