Drama Mamas: When "just friends" intrudes on love
The above song was played once an hour on MTV when it first came out. (In before the "when they were still playing music" comments.) Twenty-seven years later and I'm still sick of it. It is also from a movie about a love triangle -- I hear -- which makes it kind of pertinent to this week's letter.
My name is Robby and I've recently stumbled upon your "Drama Mamas" section on WoW Insider. I find that this column focuses on an often overlooked facet in dealing with MMORPGS, the human part. I've been an avid WoW player for about 2.5 years. I'm fortunate enough to have a wonderful girlfriend of 4 years that plays with the same enthusiasm that I do. We try and play together when we can but life is life and we are limited by school and work etc.
My current problem is that in our travels around Azeroth we have met many people, some are good and some are not so good. I try and keep my real life and my game life as separate things. I've made friends in game that I very rarely contact outside of game. Most people I meet on game are more like colleagues I work with. At work I talk and interact with them, we "do our job" and then I go home to real life and that's the end of it.
My girlfriend is a very different player. She has a friend she met through the game that she has talked to for over 2 years. They live about 12 hours away, is about 20 years older than her and he's a man. They talk daily via text messaging, they make frequent phone calls, and in game they are constantly in a group. I consider myself a very level headed person not prone to jealousy, but all I keep thinking off are "Dateline" episodes where internet predators end up killing people.
The situation came to a head when earlier this year he came down and visited (12 Hrs to visit) and recently he came down again. I've voiced my discomfort but I've yet to say "this wont happen again". Her parents are ok with the whole idea and she sees nothing at all wrong with it.
My question is am I wrong to feel this way? To my knowledge there has been no badness to come of this. They vow to stay friends even if there was no World of Warcraft. I don't like to think of issuing an ultimatum, but what more could I do?
Thank you for your time and keep up the great writing.
Without making any judgments at all about your girlfriend or her long-distance buddy, I can tell you that the feelings between a young woman and a man 20 years her senior are not typically as reciprocally platonic as they're usually painted to be. It's exciting to have the attentions of a younger woman, and it's flattering to have the attentions of an older man. What's more, it's easy enough in this situation to use the age difference and geographic separation as excuses to assure everyone -- including the parties themselves! -- that things are purely platonic. They manage to have their cake and eat it too.
Let's get this straight: I'm not one of those who believe that men and women absolutely cannot be strictly friends. What I am saying is that it's fairly likely that your girlfriend and her buddy are a lot more emotionally involved than they'd like to admit. Being friends with someone of the opposite sex doesn't make you immune to their attractions; if it's a mature platonic relationship, though, both parties will be explicitly aware of those feelings and handle them as a matter of course, keeping the boundaries firmly set.
Given the available opportunities for denial in this situation (age difference and geographic distance), it would not be surprising to discover your girlfriend is having romantic feelings for her friend that she is unwilling to admit even to herself. And given the way that time spent together, in-person visits and personal feelings are sliding all over the place, it doesn't look like friendly moderation is what's going on.
One problem I see, as a mama who's been around the sun a few more times than you and your girlfriend, is that most mature people my age have learned to tell when people are uncomfortable and putting on a good show. The fact that your girlfriend's friend doesn't seem to be sensing or heeding the chaos he causes during his visits (or during his conversations with your girlfriend -- because come on, we all know they're talking about this) throws up a red flag. What is blinding him to something a man of his age and experience should be able to perceive? What is stopping him from seeing that bringing this relationship out of the game space is creating turmoil for his younger friend? Hmm ...
But enough speculation. It's time to talk honestly with your girlfriend about how she would feel if you spent an equal amount of time with a female friend of your own. How much does this affect your feelings for your girlfriend? Is their relationship a deal-breaker for you? Let her know exactly where you stand. Maybe she'll finally get the hint that she's undermining your relationship, and you can work out something that you're both comfortable with. Or maybe she'll continue to claim she doesn't have any issues with opposite-gender friendships.
If the latter is the case, I might suggest that perhaps it's worth trying out a little female friendship of your own. Now, now -- I'm not talking about any petty revenge tactics. This is strictly on the up-and-up. Expand your own social horizons during all that time she's hobnobbing with her buddy. I'm not saying to go date girls, and I'm not saying to go seek out female friendships; I'm just saying you should go be social, and if girls are there, so be it. She might gain some perspective. You might gain a new friend or two. And with more equal social time and breathing room for everyone, you'll definitely both have a chance to make some new discoveries about where your relationship is headed.
Thanks for reading, Robby. Please write back and let us know how things work out!
There are a few things I would like to point out:
- Having no friends from work that you hang out with outside of work is a little odd. Work is a common ground which often forms friendships. The fact that you eschew any out-of-work contact makes you seem antisocial.
- You say that you have in-game friends that you "very rarely contact" outside of the game. So you do contact one or two via other means? Or has that been just to coordinate in-game activities?
- You say your girlfriend is a very different person, but in fact she seems to only have one friend that she contacts outside of WoW. Perhaps you also mean that she is more social in general?
Yes, I think it's very worrisome, and yes, I think you would be rather naive not to be suspicious. But I think you may be able to reduce the damage of Older Guy by engaging in more out-of-game social activities with your girlfriend. Perhaps you could allow yourself to make friends at work, hopefully with a couple so that you can all go out together. Or you might arrange more outings with current friends. Whether it's just the two of you or you're with a group, spending more time outside of WoW would be much better for your relationship.
Warning: Your girlfriend may at some point admit to having an online affair with Older Guy. I recommend you decide now whether that is a deal-breaker or not. If it is, it wouldn't hurt to form an exit strategy that is as drama-free as possible. I often find that if I have a way to escape from a bad situation, I am more relaxed about it -- even (particularly?) if I never have to use it.
Filed under: Analysis / Opinion, Drama Mamas
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Reader Comments (Page 5 of 8)
Maribel Nov 14th 2011 3:55PM
Yeah, this was my thought, too. People in their twenties aren't usually appealing to their SO's parents about relationship problems, which suggests she's living at home.
Caliea Nov 14th 2011 2:59PM
I think Robin hit the most salient point: Your girlfriend is looking for more social interaction. You need to address that most of all. If you're content to be at home without hanging out with friends, and she needs social interaction, you're constantly going to be fighting a battle without even knowing it.
Here's how I think it happened:
Girlfriend (GF)started chatting with nice old guy (OG). Things were friendly, nothing was over the line. GF became flattered by attention from OG, OG was flattered by attention from GF. A friendship began, with neither side thinking bad things. OG presses his advantage, GF is still flattered and now doesn't want to hurt his feeling by assuming he's pressing an advantage, and agrees to texting, calling, a 'platonic' visit. OG throws in casual comments about "your BF sure is lucky... hope he appreciates you...I'd treat you right if you were mine..." Pretty soon both Gf and OG lose sight of the fact that they're carrying on an internet romance behind BF's back.
That's an entirely new issue now. Your GF is looking for something you're not giving her. It may have started out as "Gee... I'm being social and friendly and isn't this guy NICE?!" but now it's morphed into something else.
You need to have an honest discussion, and be ready to walk away if it doesn't get resolved. This is only the symptom of a larger issue.
Jyotai Nov 14th 2011 3:09PM
There's a basic rule when you become deep friends with a person of the opposite sex who is in a relationship: You befriend the couple, or you back off.
If you're part of the couple and friends with a single person, that holds in reverse. You get your single friend and your SO to be friends, or you back off.
That's not the case with casual friends and people you hang out with now and then. They can just 'shake hands and say high' to your SO - be friendly but not 'chums'.
But if the friendship becomes a true friendship, not just a Facebook icon that puts lolcats on your wall - then you get the SO's involved as well.
Otherwise, you realize where your true feelings are and make that move...
Noyou Nov 14th 2011 3:23PM
Yeah. Just reading it creeped me out. I have had many very good RL relationships with women over the years that were totally platonic. But having said that, red flags, buzzers and whistles went off after reading this. Sounds like there is some info missing. I would feel weird if my gf had an older man driving half a day to spend time with her. And I am not the jealous type either. It's just creepy. It also sounds like the girl and the BF are not in the same city. She is supplementing her relationship with something she is not getting in RL- attention? Intimacy? Either way, it sounds like this relationship is not on solid ground. I think it is "cards on the table time". The OP needs to lay down what he wants out of the relationship and so does his GF.
ThatGuy Nov 14th 2011 3:32PM
I DO agree that there is probably something going on (and that it is probably accidental. as it is easy for feelings to creep up, since feelings arent exactly choices)
I ALSO think that if you think a 40 year old man cant make adult mature professional friendships with someone then you are a close minded idiot. Now many full grown adults havent matured mentally past 30 or 20 or even 16. But there are plenty of adults who know how to be adults. The question is not about age, its about maturity.
Please keep in mind my first comment, as this second comment doesnt mean i think its all well and good.
Also, i would like to point out (since it wasnt addressed) this notion of the "stalker killer guy" If you are doing shady business and trying to steal someone away, whether just romantically, or to eat her skin, you dont make tons of contacts let tons of people know about it, and keep the relationship public. This is why i think their feelings are accidental. because if he where that clever or seedy then i think he would have found a way to subliminally get her to avoid publicly showing off their friendship, expessially to you.
its possible to be open minded and reasonable and STILL be Careful with your life and loved ones. I had a friend who after 2 years of talking and friendship with each other in the guild, she invited me to her wedding. Naturally my parents are worried (ignoring the fact that it would have taken several computers, a few lackies, and voice actors as well as weeks and weeks of tampering with evidence for their paranoia to be corrrect), and they didnt seem to grasp the idea that "you think she might be dangerous because i met her on the internet. Well People only know me through the internet. Am i a crazy killer?"
albanesp Nov 14th 2011 3:43PM
@Robby: Most of the posters are right. You have to talk to your girl friend. No ultimatums, just straight out talk.
You also make some statements that raise a lot of questions.
First, how old are both of you? Since you mention both school and her mom/dad, is it possible she is under 21 or under 18 even? If she is a minor or even 18 her parents are idiots for allowing this.
Second, you don't mention your relationship with your girl friend. Do you live near each other and do you see each other all the time. If your relationship is ummm..physical(?), has it changed since Mr. Olderguy arrived?
In any case the "visits" are probably not appropriate unless she is an adult (over 21 in my opinion).
If you are involved in a long distance relationship, with no/limited face time/physical contact, then to be honest, something significant is missing from your relationship and you should move on.
I suggest you talk to her and simply ask her (without getting pissed or jealous as hard as that will be) to be honest with you about her feelings for Mr. Olderguy. The amount of time they spend talking outside of the game indicates a relationship and you deserve an honest answer.
Since you are in a 4-year relationship, have the two of you talked about your future? I don't care what the circumstances are, married men and women should not have single friends of the opposite sex. It is not appropriate and only leads to bad things down the road.
I would ask her where she sees her relationship (texts, phone calls, visists) with Mr. Olderguy if the two of you got engaged or married (Hypothetically of course, this is just part of the discussion).
If you don't like the answer, break up with her.
@Nagaina, please don't take this the wrong way:
Your younger male friends fantasize about you. The only way they aren't interested in you sexually is if you sent them a picture and they decided that you are not attractive to them.
I have no doubt that they flirt with you or TRIED to get you involved in their sex oriented banter. Perhaps you have done a good job of shutting it down, but don't think that they didn't try.
Your points about the ultimatum are spot on. It is not the way to maintain a healthy relationship.
Nagaina Nov 14th 2011 5:05PM
Pardon me while I cackle hysterically.
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH.
Oh, dear. That was actually the best laugh I've had in ages, thank you.
Albanesp, my younger male friends are as far from sexually interested in me as it's possible for them to be. Point in fact: one of them is bisexual, currently dating another young man at his college. Point in another fact: in some cases, I'm *literally* old enough to be their mother. My guild has an 18+ age policy and I'm pushing forty -- I'm one of the oldest members of the guild, which puts me at least a handful of years older than the vast majority of my guildmates and a full fifteen years older than the two male friends of mine in question.
Admittedly, it's flattering to imagine that my friends might merely be whiling away their sexual energy with their actual boyfriends/girlfriends, just waiting for the opportunity to engage in sexyfuntimes with their Team Mom/Cool Big Sis, who's almost forty, shaped like a jicama, and has two small children and a husband. Not particularly likely, mind you, but flattering.
My point is, of course, this: a relationship between an older man/woman and a younger person of the opposite gender is not necessarily or even inevitably going to be about sex. There's friendship. And mentorship. A few days ago I spent several hours on vent giving a shoulder to a younger, male friend and guildmate whose best friend from high school had committed suicide, while he was halfway across the country and couldn't afford to fly home for the funeral. I've also talked writing with this person, because I'm in my real life a professional writer, and about matters of personal sexuality, as he was just starting to come to terms with his own. Sometimes it just helps to have someone you can talk to who is older, more experienced in life, and not a parent or significant other.
Pyromelter Nov 14th 2011 8:06PM
yeah alb, i do think that an older woman can be kind of like a mentor/mother/big sis/auntie figure to younger men and have it not be sexual, especially if they are not physically attractive to them.
I See What I Did There Nov 14th 2011 3:49PM
Did anyone else read, "Her parents are ok with the whole idea and she sees nothing at all wrong with it." and get the impression that they're both still living at home. I think it's quite possible that the girlfriend in this story is under 18. Which puts this whole story in a much creepier light.
shotiechan Nov 15th 2011 2:14PM
Yeah, I just realized that, and it's horrible.
It's very unlikely a grown woman living on her own would actually want or need the approval from her parents to have someone who is just a friend come and visit her.
However, if she is still living with her parents, she would have to seek permission first. That makes it really disturbing.
That said, it is much more common for people to live with their folks while they go to college...but the whole thing is still giving me a really uncomfortable vibe here.
Caylynn Nov 14th 2011 3:51PM
I have to say that there are lots of reasons to not socialize with your co-workers outside of work. You may work with people who are very different from you. They may be older, younger, or at a different life stage (ie. all married and you are single, all single and you are married, you are married with no kids and they are married with kids, etc.)
I consider myself a fairly social person, yet I've never "hung out" with anyone from work, outside of work hours. I've just never had similar interests. No desire to spend time with them outside the work place.
My husband and I have plenty of friends. We hang out with those individuals. Some of those friends are work friends of his. He is an army officer, and a lot of his good friends are people he has worked with, been on course with, been on missions with, etc. Some of those friends are service couples, some aren't. At any rate, we've had far more in common with his co-workers (fellow officers for the most part) than with any of my co-workers. So I'm not anti-social. I've just never worked with people I wanted to socialize with.
Tsoi Nov 14th 2011 4:09PM
Did any of your friends ever offer to drive 8+ hours to drive to meet you?
And Old guy doesn't need to love her to want to have sex with her.
Ewok Nov 15th 2011 6:33PM
I often drive 8+hours to visit friends. In fact, I once drove 10 hours to go meet my guildmates with no intentions of sexing them up at all. Not at all interested in men.
I have plenty of platonic friends, both men and women, who have visited me, and whom I visit. I am also in the middle of BF nowhere, so in order for me to get anywhere I have a long, long drive.
BUT... the above situation does sound weird and creepy. I DO condone communication and talking and the like. Robbie, talk to the gal. Maybe the older guy is completely gay and this is 100% platonic, maybe it isn't.
raingod Nov 14th 2011 4:12PM
Because we don't have the other parties side in this, it's very easy to jump to conclusions about what may or may may not be happening. All we know is what Robby tells us-and that's really not enough other than to make snap judgments (something people here seem to be good at).
While everyone is piling on the "he's a creeper" bandwagon, what's to say it's not her using him for money, gifts, etc? There are just as many young creepers as there are older. People need to get their head out of the sand and start looking at both sides.
I hardly think two visits in two years are a red flag, especially when we don't know how long the visits were, where he stayed, etc etc.
Bottom line is, if Robby is so threatened by a friendship his g/f has then maybe he needs to examine whether he's as level headed as he thinks. If I were the gf, I'd run for the hills, because I have no doubt if he feels this way about one friendship, he'll feel that way about another.
The most successful relationships I've ever seen, are those where there you three components, you, me and us. Very few of my friends hang out with me and my partner, nor do many of his friends hang out with me. we do however, know other couples we both hang out with together. You CAN have friends independently and as a couple.
As for the advice to get a female friend, that's just junior high school antics, very fitting of the "Drama" in Drama Mamas. How someone could even offer that as a logical solution and be over 12 years old is beyond me.
Suncatcher Nov 14th 2011 4:38PM
Okay having been a part of this type of relationship, I can tell you this, Older Player fills a need that you cannot or have not filled. This does not make you a bad person, it only exposes a difficulty in your relationship. If IF you can overcome this challenge, your relationship will be stronger.
If she tells you, you cannot overcome this, then it is likely there are issues on her or your side that you both could never have overcome. A third party cannot enter a relationship and tear it apart. A third party can only expose and exploit existing flaws.
Trust me. I have been interloped, but only because of my own failings, i.e. working 7 days a week, literally. Does that mean it was right for a third party to come in and break up a marriage/relationship? No. Does that mean it was right for her to cheat? No. But neither does it make me a blameless victim. I played my part.
So put down the fiddle, and talk to her. If you are not sure what to say, think about it for a day or so and write it down. Remember it isn't all about you, but it isn't all about her either. Be prepared to work out whatever you need to work on. Also be prepared with an exit strategy. Because staying and holding on to mistrust and bitterness, will ultimately fail. I know that to, all too well.
Suncatcher Nov 14th 2011 4:52PM
Oh and Robin,
Lawyers and doctors often do not make work friends that extend outside of work. Many professionals do not. Work is bad enough. If I golf with these people or whatever on weekends it is just another day of work. Not having work friends in your outside life may simply be a safety valve. I can't be "lawyer/doctor/whatever" all the time. People in my real life hate it. (They can't win an argument, EVER. Constantly diagnosing the common cold, etc.)
Professionals always have to be right at work. And being with people from work just becomes another occasion where I always have to be right. I have to turn that part off when I go home. I can be a fail this or fail that, and no one dies or loses their home. (Okay as a usual healer and sometime tank people often die, lol.)
Pyromelter Nov 14th 2011 5:16PM
Some very good advice and some very good points Sun. I might add that some of us have good jobs where we really don't connect with our colleagues on a social level.
Spinster Nov 14th 2011 4:44PM
There has been some good advice given here. Nice to see! I would just add that many years ago my partner at the time was friends with someone and then ended up being more than friends despite much denial, and we split. It was hard. However, I have always been proud of the fact that I handled it like an adult. I had a few vindictive moments, but not many at all, and I sucked it up and moved on gracefully. AND it turned out to be the best thing that could have happened to me because I stumbled onto the love of my life shortly thereafter and was free to be with that person with no guilt.
And the love of my life plays WoW. :-)
Pyromelter Nov 14th 2011 5:14PM
Good for you spin... something to remember if Robby ends up breaking up with his gf, is that often times a better opportunity will come up, and if he keeps his head and acts like an adult, he will be that much better of a person for someone who really deserves him.
Pyromelter Nov 14th 2011 5:10PM
How to have a confrontation with your significant other (SO from here on out):
In every boy-girl relationship, there will usually come a time when you have to stand up for yourself, put your foot down, and have it out with your SO. I want to stress this is not a guy thing, or a girl thing, but a people thing. Sometimes one person is just messing up bad, or doing something really out-of-bounds, and the other person has to stand up for themselves. If you don't stand up for yourself, what will happen is your self-esteem will be destroyed, and you will lose your SO.
I'm not sure if this is needed in Robby's case, but if the Drama Mama's advice fails, and she continues to form a connection with this man, you will have to do this. The reason why is simple: it's simply unacceptable to be in a relationship with someone who is forming a romantic or emotional attachment to someone else.
How to do this: First, don't set up a dinner or a time "when you want to talk." Don't even say "Hey let's talk." Don't even say "Can I ask you a question?" All of that will just set up anxiety. You set the terms for the conversation, and when you are ready, launch into it. Now of course, you don't want to do this at a bad time - like at a holiday dinner, or right after sex. (FOR THE LOVE OF GOD NEVER EVER TALK ABOUT SERIOUS STUFF RIGHT AFTER SEX.) A normal weekday night when there is nothing really going on would be a good time. This can be done on the phone, or possibly even by computer/text/IM, but I recommend at least some kind of voice communication. Once you've figured out when, then you have to prepare yourself.
Second, be prepared mentally. You must understand that she is going to be upset, possibly livid with you, including crying, yelling, screaming, and general feeling like crap. You must also understand that this is normal, and to be expected, and you're going to have to withstand a torrent of emotions. And yes, you MUST be prepared to break up with her. This may be the last conversation you have as bf/gf. But also understand, that if you do have this conversation, your relationship has a chance to continue. If you DON'T have this conversation, you're relationship will be dead. So, now that you're mentally prepared, what now?
Third, figure out what to say. It is okay to have things written down, questions to ask, thoughts you have, feelings you feel. I can't give you specifics... I know what I would say in this situation (something like "You're never going to talk to this person again or we're done"), but Robby seems like a much more tactful, even-keeled, and reasonable person. So he might ask "Do you think it might be a little inappropriate for you to have this kind of friendship with this man?" And even tho that is a neutral question, I can tell you from experience, she is going to immediately go SHIELDS UP! or possibly ATTACK! as soon as you go into it. It is important to listen, reflect, but also important that you express everything you want to express. Remember, you are standing up for yourself, your feelings, your emotions, because if you don't, then you aren't going to be good to yourself or her in a relationship. Hash it out, but also remember to stay firm and always respect yourself and your emotions. You are a human being and deserve love and attention if you are in a committed relationship.
Fourth, and finally, come to a conclusion with your SO. Sometimes these conversations end up in break-ups, but oftentimes, if you keep your cool, a conversation like this can bring you closer together, in an "I didn't know you really felt that way" kind of way. Or you may end up dumping that... person. There may need to be a follow up. She may need a night to sleep on it. There have been times for me where the foot was put down, a good night's sleep and thought were had, and we came back with a conclusion. Just don't let it hang for too long. Things get weird, once things are out in the open, if there is no resolution to the issues.
Not a part of the confrontation, but something that I recommend, is not to put it off. If something is bugging you, nip it in the bud, get at it right away, or it will eat at you. Sometimes what might be bothering you ends up not being a big deal at all. Other times it might be a dealbreaker. Either way, life is short, and you're better off moving forward in your relationship or moving on if it doesn't work out. As much as moving on will give you a lot of short-term pain, you'll be much better off in the long run, and you'll be a much better person for the next SO.
Robby, if you read this and have any questions, please feel free to ask, I'd gladly answer any follow up questions you may have.
~Pyro, always a student of the romantic arts