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All of the latest Mists of Pandaria newsSpiritual Guidance: A shadow priest's first look into the Raid Finder
by Fox Van Allen 
Nov 16th 2011 at 1:00PM
Let's start off today's column with a question to you, the reader: How did you get your start raiding?
Me, I got my start in the PUG raiding circuit of yore. Someone would spam trade chat with their need for one ranged DPS for whatever raid instance happened to be in fashion at the time. I'd whisper them, hoping to snag that elusive slot (and believe me, as a DPSer, that slot was very elusive). Generally, I had no idea what I was doing while in the raids. I knew not to stand in stuff and to target whatever had the skull over its head.
I was a pretty lousy PUG raider. Let's face it -- we all were. PUG raids aren't known for their rates of success. Which is why I was intrigued when Blizzard announced its new Raid Finder system, coming in patch 4.3. Could Blizzard have found a way to make PUG raiding ... bearable?
The few, the proud, the 68%
Leading raids is a pain. It requires skills and patience that I frankly don't have. And I know a lot of you are the same way -- it's part of why we chose the DPS role in the first place. We like being important to a raid. But we don't necessarily want the pressure of being the make-or-break component. We want to be part of the 17 of 25 who queue as DPSers. We are the shadowy 68%.
That said, every raid needs a competent leader -- a tough-as-nails 4% type. One figure to unite us all. One person to take the responsibility. Failing that, every raid needs a generic leader who at least shows up and goes through the motions. It's a pretty important aspect. Raid encounters have a lot going on. Leaders help make sure their raiders are on the same page and doing what they're supposed to be doing. They're the glue that holds a raid together. You can down a boss with 16 of 17 DPSers, but if you go zero for one in the leader department, you're screwed, my friend.
This is where the Raid Finder tool breaks down. You don't get glue. You get that crusty paste that toddlers stick pieces of construction paper together with, if even that. That's not to say you can't wind up with a skilled leader. I'm just saying you probably won't.
I speak from experience.
That terrible first attempt
After waiting a solid 12 to 16 hours for all the patches to be applied to my PTR client, I decided to hit the brand new Raid Finder to get the shadow priest's perspective. After all, I needed something to write about this week, didn't I? After a mercifully short wait, I was invited to join an in-progress group that had downed two of the eight bosses.
Now, for those of you familiar with the PUG raiding circuit, you know what it usually means when a group is looking for new members when just two bosses are downed: It's a raid on life support. People are quick to give up on bad groups.
Against my better judgment, I joined the raid. I was immediately sent to the deck of The Skyfire, and two minutes later, I had engaged my first boss in the Dragon Soul raid. Here's a screenshot of that first attempt:
Raids are inherently different from heroics. They tend to be more focused on bosses. And they also tend to be more difficult. Most players can go in and fake their way through a heroic. It's a lot harder to fake your way through a raid.
The Raid Finder tool is going to be filled with players who are curious about raiding but have yet to dip their toes into that particular pool. That's cool -- I think it's great that players are experiencing new content in new ways. But the problem is that the Raid Finder is an unforgiving mistress. They've reduced the difficulty of the Raid Finder raids, but they're still hard. Players are going to wind up wiping a lot, regardless of their own personal skill level.
And if there's one thing players don't find fun, it's failure. These new players are going to hate raiding.
Experience 2: Warmaster Blackhorn
My second encounter put me in the middle of a group attempting Warmaster Blackhorn. It's very much reminiscent of the S.S. Lootship fight back in the Icecrown Citadel raid, but with an actual boss (eventually) that needs to be DPSed.
This group was blessed with a leader who at least took the time to bark out general instruction: "Ranged DPS, attack the drakes." "When the boss yells, stand in the purple." Crude directions, sure, but they were all that we needed to avoid massive casualties. We downed the boss on the first try. Sadly, the group fell apart after downing the boss. Even though we got just one boss down, though, it felt like an accomplishment.
I didn't feel incredibly useful during that fight, even though I probably was. There's a lot of target switching, and as a spec that requires a bit of a ramp-up time, each time I switch targets I feel like my DPS is suffering. With more experience, I'm sure I'll be multi-DoTing adds like a pro.
Experience 3: The Maelstrom
My third experience put me in a group battling Deathwing at the Maelstrom. It's your typical final boss in an RPG fight -- the villain descends even further into madness, with his body decayed and corrupted to match his mind. It's pretty epic stuff. And, as you can guess, pretty difficult stuff to conquer.
The fight has a lot of different mechanics that add to the "fun" of the fight. You get your own bonus defensive cooldown that reduces the damage you take (briefly) by 50%. The dragon aspects give you a number of buffs, including a haste buff. At most times, you have two targets present, allowing you to multi-DoT. Specifically, as a shadow priest, I felt powerful.
There were a lot of things going on during that fight that your average player will have to know about to be successful. You need to know what tentacle to DPS and when. You need to know what platform to be on. You need to DPS the party-wiping Elementium Bolt, or at least know to get out of the way of it. You need to switch targets. You even need to interrupt Deathwing when he attempts to call forth a second Cataclysm.
Ultimately, my group failed to beat Deathwing. It fell apart to an irreparable extent after the second wipe. I guess that means that "all was lost." Oh well. If at first you don't succeed, queue in the Raid Finder again.
General advice
Unfortunately, my Raid Finder experience was rough enough that I wasn't able to complete a full raid, start to finish. Still, I was able to see a large variety of content, and I did get some bosses downed. That in mind, here are some of tips learned through my own personal experience with the Raid Finder:
- Press Shift + J and read the Dungeon Journal! It has valuable information about all the new raid bosses. You don't have to be an expert, but you do owe it to your fellow players to know at least something about the fights you're going to attempt.
- Once a PUG raid starts to fail, it's next to impossible to rescue it. Players get frustrated and leave. Others stay, but develop bad attitudes. For this reason, I generally advise against joining raids that have already downed bosses.
- If you're going to use the Raid Finder tool, you'll be more successful if you put your own group together. Obviously, getting 25 people is ideal, but even if you can only muster 20 or 15, you'll still be starting with a solid foundation of people who you know.
Fixing the Raid Finder
I'm not sure that the Raid Finder in its current form is the best of ideas. Even with a good leader, raiding is difficult. And though content is easier when experienced via the Raid Finder, it's still not easy. Groups are going to wipe.
And ultimately, therein lies the problem. PUG players typically have a sense of entitlement to a smooth, difficulty-free run. We don't want to be thrown into a wipe-filled, four-hour Throne of Tides heroic. We want the 20-minute flawless cruise through the instance. We'll tolerate some failure here and there, but we're not going to bang our heads against a wall --especially when you can just ditch the strangers you're with and find a new group at the push of a button.
Raiders generally have a higher tolerance for failure; the wipe is an integral part of the raiding experience. But when you start throwing random people into the mix, something about the raid dynamic changes. Mistakes are more forgivable when you already know and are friendly with the person making them.
This version of the Raid Finder will fail, because it's not what the players want it to be. Players using it aren't going to want a raid-type experience. They're going to want a heroic-type experience. And that means only one thing: For this Raid Finder to be successful, the difficulty level is going to need to be nerfed through the ground.
Are you more interested in watching health bars go down than watching them bounce back up? We've got more for shadow priests, from Shadow Priest 101 to a list of every monster worth mind controlling and strategies for raiding Blackwing Descent.
Filed under: Priest, Raiding, (Priest) Spiritual Guidance, Cataclysm
Reader Comments (Page 2 of 5)
Skyrei Nov 16th 2011 7:19PM
Oh boo. Guess you cant space things out.
Crhuble Nov 16th 2011 10:57PM
I understand the proportional argument that 25
Ralkor Nov 17th 2011 12:01AM
You are more likely to have at least one semi-competent leader among 25 people than among 10.
Uthame Nov 16th 2011 1:32PM
You know Fox, this is precisely the thing I worried about when it was announced. I can't imagine having not 3 or 4 'you noob, lern 2 pwn' folks to 15-20 of them. I think I'm going to use it if I have a group of friends or guildies first, otherwise only if I'm bored and have time to kill.
Goradan Nov 16th 2011 1:33PM
Pretty bleak assessment! But I can't say you're wrong. I can only hope Blizzard sticks to their guns and people realize that they shouldn't use this as an LFG but rather as a filler for incomplete raids that casual guilds can do in a leisurely manner. I'm hoping to use it for alt runs or maybe a fun Friday night thing by combing our 10-man with another guild or something.
Sixto Rey Troche Jr Nov 16th 2011 1:37PM
I have loved the raid finder so far - wipes and all. It takes some persistence but you learn the mechanics during the fights which will help when raiding. Is this meant for 100% casuals? probably not... but its nature alone will weed out those who just aren't right for it. Do i think they'll improve it for MoP - sure, but it is a workable system currently and imo although it could use improvements, it will probably be my main source of Valor before i start clearing DS with my guild regularly.
What you seem to have forgotten with the article is not only is the group a pug but also the content is new and the players are not only less geared for it, but you also likely have players jumping in before correcting their talents (talent reset on ptr) and reviewing the content. On live, more players will be on it and they will be getting better and better gear and learning the content as they go... I don't see this as a failed attempt but more like a BH or VoA pug. When the content is new the run will be difficult - as more people learn the run and gear up it will get easier and easier.
Sixto Rey Troche Jr Nov 16th 2011 1:43PM
Also, on live you'll have more actual raid groups using it to form gearing runs which will be nice to have a more organized group. Personally, i'll be creating a basic vent just for it so i can have a channel for players to jump into if they want some more organization. This will be a great tool, its all about how the players use it =)
PeeWee Nov 16th 2011 2:43PM
@Sixto Rey Troche Jr:
Unless you're willing to pay for it, Ventrilo can only hold 8 people. If you already pay for a Vent server, a separate channel is easy enough - with a one-night password for it of course, so people don't continue using what you pay for after the raid is over.
But if you want a free alternative other than a separate channel on your paid server, go with the free license of Teamspeak or better yet, go open-source with Mumble.
(cutaia) Nov 16th 2011 3:11PM
"go with the free license of Teamspeak or better yet, go open-source with Mumble. "
As much as I love Mumble, it's hard enough sometimes to get the 1 or 2 pugs we pick up on a raid night to download it. Good luck getting 24 randoms from other servers to do it. :(
PeeWee Nov 16th 2011 3:20PM
@cutie (yes, I always read it as that, and your avatar helps ^^)
Aye, that's the sad truth.
Revynn Nov 16th 2011 1:42PM
I think a lot of the earlier fights (Morchok) are going to be killed pretty regularly in the raid finder. He's a pretty standard tank-n-spank, on par with most BH/VoA bosses if not easier.
My personal experience wasn't all that different. I joined in and found myself facing Morchok about 5 seconds before the tank pulled. I'd seen a video so I knew what to expect and the boss went down fairly easily. I had to leave due to lag issues during trash before the next boss. The second time I queued, I came into a group who was mass vote-kicking d/C'ed players, afk'ers and "bads" (I hate that term, btw). He leader barely explained anything before sending us in to our deaths, sung to the sounds of "bad heals", "fail" and "OMG U GYZ SUK". After a few more attempts with no progress, the entire thing completely self-destructed.
I have more hope for the system though. I think it's going to be a lot like any new heroic or BH boss. During the first month or two, groups will fall apart regularly as people fail to mechanics and rage quit on each other, but after a while you'll see people start to have a general knowledge of each fight and slowly you'll see groups start to press further and further in. I dont know that downing Madness will ever happen on a regular basis in LFR (like 50% of the time or more), but I don't think it will be terribly uncommon either.
Matt Nov 16th 2011 1:42PM
This is incredibly unfortunate, yet I can't really say that it's surprising. Even with the inherent decreased difficulty the Raid Finder comes packaged with, the nature of a raid is to be a complex challenge that can only be overcome through teamwork, communication, and above all, patience. I think Fox nailed it when he said that people will be less forgiving of mistakes and less willing to contribute their time when the easier route would be to ditch the group and find another, ad infinitum, world without end, amen....and the result of such an attitude (especially when reinforced by the tenacious "GOGOGO" culture developed in heroics) will be severe growing pains for the LFR system, if not outright failure.
Honestly, I'm not even sure Blizzard can do much TO fix it...maybe I'm a shade pessimistic, but it seems as though it's a lose/lose situation should they try. On the one hand, if they nerf it even more than it (theoretically, relative to non-RF raids) already is, people will get bored because it lacks challenge and succeeding will be meaningless. I know people look fondly back on the days of Wrath heroics as a 20 minute "git er done", but i don't care who you are, how many days a week you work, or what else you have going on in your life...if something is that easy to the point where you end up doing it for the sake of doing it, with little reward (the loot and VP will eventually become obsolete, mind you), it's going to lose its luster pretty quick and people will become unhappy.
On the other, even if they add incentives like loot bags that won't encourage or develop the necessary skills to succeed in the raid. I understand the RF is supposed to be raider training wheels, but how can you train someone when you don't even show them what right looks like? It won't fix the real problem, and there are only so many competent players to be passed around...odds are you'll get the same results, just using different methods.
Finally, if they do nothing and keep it the way it is the environment will mirror but magnify the poisonous atmosphere developed through the Heroic DF and people will just continue to try to find PUGs via their regular realm commo channels, getting better loot and better quality(relatively) out of the bargain. The players on less populated realms, who are less experienced with raiding via less exposure and for whom this RF should be a boon, I fear may be stuck with other less experienced and (with a high degree of certainty, but not absolutely) less patient and/or skilled individuals who will make the whole thing a nightmare for them.
Ultimately, I think Blizz did their part when they baked in dungeon guides and lessened the RF difficulty...but really the RF's success lies on the shoulders of the community, and maybe this is the jaded Pally that has tanked 1 too many or the burned out resto druid tired of taking unwarranted abuse talking, but I don't really have faith that they can bear such a responsibility for the most part. I'm sure Blizz had good intentions with the RF based off of the relative success of the HDF, but it's kind of like comparing apples to oranges. Just because the one succeeded by no means does it lead to the conclusion the other will. But, given the fact that it's still in its infant stages...I guess we'll see how things go.
TL;DR: the current wow community, in the state it's in, will not let the Raid Finder succeed.
Legs Nov 16th 2011 1:44PM
I am disappointed to see you poisioning the well: your article will presumably encourage people who would otherwise competent to NOT use the raid finder which will in turn make the overall experience worse.
You joined _3_ raids with the raid finder, on a ptr, when the encounters are brand new and you write off the tool because you couldn't get through the whole wing? That is incredibly short-sighted and pessimistic.
I'm not here to say that the LFR tool is going to be awesome and we'll all prance through it collecting the loot like halloween candy, but come on, some perspective on your VERY limited experience with it would have gone a long way.
Matt Nov 16th 2011 2:00PM
I would disagree: Fox isn't poisoning the well, he's sharing his experience. He didn't make it up or spin it..he just told us what happened. Just because it's a negative experience doesn't mean he has to shoot rainbows out of his arse while he's relating it to us. If anything, we as readers deserve a plain and accurate re-telling. Sugar coating it would be insulting.
Regardless of his experience, if you've had at least two (I say two in deference to the cruelty of the RNG gods, because even if they lull you into a false sense of confidence with a smooth run at first, you better damn well believe the second one is going to make you want to fling yourself into traffic) you would agree that it's a very short hop in reasoning to estimate how the RF will play out live....and it's not gonna be pretty.
So relax....and BOHICA, friend. Fox's perspective will have no bearing on what the RF is going to be like, nor will it affect how many people will want to try out the new gadget once it goes live. Under circumstances like these, people will always have the masochistic urge to satisfy their own curiosity, even if they know what's coming down the pipe beforehand.
Matt Nov 16th 2011 2:03PM
at least two HDF runs^
WTB Edit button =/
Legs Nov 16th 2011 2:11PM
I would contend that he most definitely DID spin it (and it's his column so of course he can!): unless I'm mistaken, all 3 groups downed bosses (in 2 cases before he arrived), so the overriding theme could just as easily have been "new groups in the LFR tool seem very capable of getting some bosses down!". Instead, he said "This version of the Raid Finder will fail, because it's not what the players want it to be." If that's not editorializing I don't know what is!
You're probably right that this single article isn't going to make a huge difference, but I do find the "PuGs are (always) terrible" meme in the WoW community to be pretty annoying since I think it's based on prejudiced thinking and not on unbiased reflection, but I suppose that rant can wait :)
I am actually really looking forward to this on the live realms, and I think it will end up being, if not perfect, at least a useful tool for getting oneself geared.
Kurly Nov 16th 2011 2:30PM
Whats even scarier is that you typically DONT have noobs on the PTR. If his experience on the ptr was this bad, just consider what happens when it's released to the wild.
Legs Nov 16th 2011 2:42PM
I can honestly say that I have no idea what the demographics on the PTR are.
While I think it's fair to say that WoW noobs almost certainly don't show up there, I don't think this is a noob issue: first off, to get in, one has to at least get to 85 and then run enough current raids or new heroics to get one's ilevel high enough.
Thus, I don't think noobs will be contaminating LFR for a good while: it's more about trolls/immature players.
I think it will work better when it goes live: community experience will go up, there will more than likely be many more partial guild groups (10+ queuing, and we'll be able to set up partial groups through realm channels as well.
Matt Nov 16th 2011 2:58PM
Point taken about the spin.
However, while he definitely could have pushed to the readers the important thing is that LFR PUGs can get one boss down, to me that would be glossing over the nuts and bolts of the operation just to make people feel better about a flawed system. Even if he did make the tone optimistic, people would find out about the reality of it sooner or later anyway. If anything, Fox's take confirms what most of us already know about the dungeon-finder community anyway.
Personally, I'd feel a little betrayed if he were to make the overriding theme one of general success when the road to that (miniscule chance of) success was long, grueling, and full of abuse, in turn making said success a lucky byproduct notwithstanding the reality of the group interaction. "Hey guys! LFR PUGs work because we downed a boss!...eh? what's that? no, we weren't able to finish the whole raid. Oh, and for the most part the attempts were such that it was amazing we were able to down the boss at all. But we got him anyway!" I, for one, don't like those odds. This isn't going to be something like the Archavon-styled raids where you can "PEWPEW...sidestep left..PEWPEW...sidestep right...WIN!" These are going to be the real deal...and the community fabric isn't strong enough to make it work.
Lastly, PUGs ARE awful (most of the time)...calling that attitude a meme indicates that it was a cultural phenomenon that was imitated and replicated throughout the community for its own sake regardless of experience. Rather, I've found that the attitude is a shared sentiment formed by individual identical experiences. If you soberly reflect on your DF experiences and weigh the bad runs vs. the good, I very much doubt you'll come up with a percentage that refutes the majority population's claims that PUGs are, for the most part, crap.
(cutaia) Nov 16th 2011 3:17PM
"Whats even scarier is that you typically DONT have noobs on the PTR. If his experience on the ptr was this bad, just consider what happens when it's released to the wild."
I'm going to suggest the opposite. My experience on the PTR was filled with people who were just curious about the feature, and didn't really have any motivation to down a boss.
On live, you're actually going to have a reason to want to focus for a few minutes and try and kill the boss. On the PTR, people gave up super easily because they really just didn't care.
The PTR is always full of lookie loos who don't read patch notes, and just want to play around with things more than they care to actually test and provide meaningful feedback, so I'm not surprised the PTR raid finder runs haven't gone well for a lot of groups.