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All of the latest Mists of Pandaria newsSpiritual Guidance: A shadow priest's first look into the Raid Finder
by Fox Van Allen 
Nov 16th 2011 at 1:00PM
Let's start off today's column with a question to you, the reader: How did you get your start raiding?
Me, I got my start in the PUG raiding circuit of yore. Someone would spam trade chat with their need for one ranged DPS for whatever raid instance happened to be in fashion at the time. I'd whisper them, hoping to snag that elusive slot (and believe me, as a DPSer, that slot was very elusive). Generally, I had no idea what I was doing while in the raids. I knew not to stand in stuff and to target whatever had the skull over its head.
I was a pretty lousy PUG raider. Let's face it -- we all were. PUG raids aren't known for their rates of success. Which is why I was intrigued when Blizzard announced its new Raid Finder system, coming in patch 4.3. Could Blizzard have found a way to make PUG raiding ... bearable?
The few, the proud, the 68%
Leading raids is a pain. It requires skills and patience that I frankly don't have. And I know a lot of you are the same way -- it's part of why we chose the DPS role in the first place. We like being important to a raid. But we don't necessarily want the pressure of being the make-or-break component. We want to be part of the 17 of 25 who queue as DPSers. We are the shadowy 68%.
That said, every raid needs a competent leader -- a tough-as-nails 4% type. One figure to unite us all. One person to take the responsibility. Failing that, every raid needs a generic leader who at least shows up and goes through the motions. It's a pretty important aspect. Raid encounters have a lot going on. Leaders help make sure their raiders are on the same page and doing what they're supposed to be doing. They're the glue that holds a raid together. You can down a boss with 16 of 17 DPSers, but if you go zero for one in the leader department, you're screwed, my friend.
This is where the Raid Finder tool breaks down. You don't get glue. You get that crusty paste that toddlers stick pieces of construction paper together with, if even that. That's not to say you can't wind up with a skilled leader. I'm just saying you probably won't.
I speak from experience.
That terrible first attempt
After waiting a solid 12 to 16 hours for all the patches to be applied to my PTR client, I decided to hit the brand new Raid Finder to get the shadow priest's perspective. After all, I needed something to write about this week, didn't I? After a mercifully short wait, I was invited to join an in-progress group that had downed two of the eight bosses.
Now, for those of you familiar with the PUG raiding circuit, you know what it usually means when a group is looking for new members when just two bosses are downed: It's a raid on life support. People are quick to give up on bad groups.
Against my better judgment, I joined the raid. I was immediately sent to the deck of The Skyfire, and two minutes later, I had engaged my first boss in the Dragon Soul raid. Here's a screenshot of that first attempt:
Raids are inherently different from heroics. They tend to be more focused on bosses. And they also tend to be more difficult. Most players can go in and fake their way through a heroic. It's a lot harder to fake your way through a raid.
The Raid Finder tool is going to be filled with players who are curious about raiding but have yet to dip their toes into that particular pool. That's cool -- I think it's great that players are experiencing new content in new ways. But the problem is that the Raid Finder is an unforgiving mistress. They've reduced the difficulty of the Raid Finder raids, but they're still hard. Players are going to wind up wiping a lot, regardless of their own personal skill level.
And if there's one thing players don't find fun, it's failure. These new players are going to hate raiding.
Experience 2: Warmaster Blackhorn
My second encounter put me in the middle of a group attempting Warmaster Blackhorn. It's very much reminiscent of the S.S. Lootship fight back in the Icecrown Citadel raid, but with an actual boss (eventually) that needs to be DPSed.
This group was blessed with a leader who at least took the time to bark out general instruction: "Ranged DPS, attack the drakes." "When the boss yells, stand in the purple." Crude directions, sure, but they were all that we needed to avoid massive casualties. We downed the boss on the first try. Sadly, the group fell apart after downing the boss. Even though we got just one boss down, though, it felt like an accomplishment.
I didn't feel incredibly useful during that fight, even though I probably was. There's a lot of target switching, and as a spec that requires a bit of a ramp-up time, each time I switch targets I feel like my DPS is suffering. With more experience, I'm sure I'll be multi-DoTing adds like a pro.
Experience 3: The Maelstrom
My third experience put me in a group battling Deathwing at the Maelstrom. It's your typical final boss in an RPG fight -- the villain descends even further into madness, with his body decayed and corrupted to match his mind. It's pretty epic stuff. And, as you can guess, pretty difficult stuff to conquer.
The fight has a lot of different mechanics that add to the "fun" of the fight. You get your own bonus defensive cooldown that reduces the damage you take (briefly) by 50%. The dragon aspects give you a number of buffs, including a haste buff. At most times, you have two targets present, allowing you to multi-DoT. Specifically, as a shadow priest, I felt powerful.
There were a lot of things going on during that fight that your average player will have to know about to be successful. You need to know what tentacle to DPS and when. You need to know what platform to be on. You need to DPS the party-wiping Elementium Bolt, or at least know to get out of the way of it. You need to switch targets. You even need to interrupt Deathwing when he attempts to call forth a second Cataclysm.
Ultimately, my group failed to beat Deathwing. It fell apart to an irreparable extent after the second wipe. I guess that means that "all was lost." Oh well. If at first you don't succeed, queue in the Raid Finder again.
General advice
Unfortunately, my Raid Finder experience was rough enough that I wasn't able to complete a full raid, start to finish. Still, I was able to see a large variety of content, and I did get some bosses downed. That in mind, here are some of tips learned through my own personal experience with the Raid Finder:
- Press Shift + J and read the Dungeon Journal! It has valuable information about all the new raid bosses. You don't have to be an expert, but you do owe it to your fellow players to know at least something about the fights you're going to attempt.
- Once a PUG raid starts to fail, it's next to impossible to rescue it. Players get frustrated and leave. Others stay, but develop bad attitudes. For this reason, I generally advise against joining raids that have already downed bosses.
- If you're going to use the Raid Finder tool, you'll be more successful if you put your own group together. Obviously, getting 25 people is ideal, but even if you can only muster 20 or 15, you'll still be starting with a solid foundation of people who you know.
Fixing the Raid Finder
I'm not sure that the Raid Finder in its current form is the best of ideas. Even with a good leader, raiding is difficult. And though content is easier when experienced via the Raid Finder, it's still not easy. Groups are going to wipe.
And ultimately, therein lies the problem. PUG players typically have a sense of entitlement to a smooth, difficulty-free run. We don't want to be thrown into a wipe-filled, four-hour Throne of Tides heroic. We want the 20-minute flawless cruise through the instance. We'll tolerate some failure here and there, but we're not going to bang our heads against a wall --especially when you can just ditch the strangers you're with and find a new group at the push of a button.
Raiders generally have a higher tolerance for failure; the wipe is an integral part of the raiding experience. But when you start throwing random people into the mix, something about the raid dynamic changes. Mistakes are more forgivable when you already know and are friendly with the person making them.
This version of the Raid Finder will fail, because it's not what the players want it to be. Players using it aren't going to want a raid-type experience. They're going to want a heroic-type experience. And that means only one thing: For this Raid Finder to be successful, the difficulty level is going to need to be nerfed through the ground.
Are you more interested in watching health bars go down than watching them bounce back up? We've got more for shadow priests, from Shadow Priest 101 to a list of every monster worth mind controlling and strategies for raiding Blackwing Descent.
Filed under: Priest, Raiding, (Priest) Spiritual Guidance, Cataclysm
Reader Comments (Page 3 of 5)
Legs Nov 16th 2011 3:25PM
Hey I didn't say that he had to go all Happy Fun Time Propaganda! :) I was merely pointing out that he was being awfully pessimistic (again with the "...will fail..." quote) considering the small sample size and that there was some level of success by those groups.
On thing to keep in mind is to compare this to the general gnashing of teeth about how hard heroics were at the beginning of cata and to consider how easy they are now: I have no doubt that the community will get better as time goes on: experience with the encounters will increase, as will ilevels.
I find it interesting that you would write that last paragraph, as it is the exact polar opposite of the paragraph I would write. I pug with a bear tank, and I can honestly say that the number of awful runs is VASTLY outweighed by the number of decent runs, and in fact, is even outnumbered by the truly epic runs (i.e. successful Bear Mount run). As such, I see it EXACTLY as a cultural phenomenon that is imitated and replicated throughout the community (in this case as a form of friendly commiseration, and/or self righteousness)
Certainly awful runs occur, but I can honestly not remember when I was in a fail group that wasn't solvable with patience and/or the kicking of a single member. I guess it depends a lot on your perspective and a bit on luck... Perhaps one (or both!) of us is/are suffering from Confirmation Bias? That's actually one of the reasons that I would LOVE to see either a large scale community based study to get hard numbers on the subjective PuG experience, OR an in-game rating system for players/runs in the LFD tool.
Legs Nov 16th 2011 3:50PM
Matt replied to an accidental non-reply post, so I will copy it up here to keep the discussion cohesive:
==============
Matt said...
fair enough, fair enough. :)
you do make a good point the gradual easing/outgearing of 5 mans, but i feel like it's comparing apples and oranges. the level of communication and synchronicity required for raiding (if you're not running BH, i suppose) far outstrips that required for 5 man heroics. but then again, maybe im being too generous. maybe the LFR raids are meant to be 5 man heroics in everything but name and number of players? no idea.
as for my last paragraph, i really do sincerely congratulate you on your successes....i just wish i could share in them! from my experience, you are in the minority of players that have had overwhelmingly good experiences in the DF, due in most part to either luck, skill, personality, or a combination of the three. i think the gripes come not so much from poor execution (although i'm sure that's a good bit), but from the shitty attitudes so prevalent throughout. if you are blessed enough to have the mental armor to ward off such infinite poison and still come out smiling, then you sir/madam deserve a medal of the highest honor.
it sounds as though you are confirming my point about the meme language: a meme is something that is replicated regardless of your personal experiences. i think the attitude about PUGs is distinct from the meme phenomenon - it is different people coming together (commiserating, true) to share their individual experiences that existed independent of other experiences. it's sharing, not replicating.
for your last point, i agree that it would be awesome to see the results of such a study. i think both of us have made sound points even though we are on different ends of the opinion spectrum, and even though i'm a bit grumpy and pessimistic about the community's capability to come together and randomly succeed as a team on a complex and high functioning level, im still able to concede that things may not be all bad. it would be neat to see what can be objectively confirmed outside of our individual bias'!
==========
Legs Nov 16th 2011 3:56PM
I think you may have misunderstood my addressing the meme thing: I was relating it to confirmation bias in that I think people perceive the aggregate "goodness" of their PuG runs as much lower than they actually were because they are predisposed to remember the bad ones (i.e. the meme primed them to be pessimistic, and thus pass on that pessimism to others).
I would really love to see that study. I think it could be a very interesting one for a psych student, as I believe that the study of confirmation bias/memes would be right up someone's alley.
I am a programmer, so I immediately thought of making an addon to prompt people to rate their experience after each PuG... I have considered making one in the past, so maybe I will. A quick google search did turn this up, though it seems to be more targetted at individual player ratings rather than overall experience (though you could presumably get some data from it): http://www.curse.com/addons/wow/grouper
Matt Nov 16th 2011 4:00PM
whoops! Thanks, Legs! :D!
Legs Nov 16th 2011 4:06PM
Matt, regardless of our differing opinion on PuGs, I think it's safe to say we would agree that the joystiq comment system is truly awful...
Matt Nov 16th 2011 5:26PM
indubitably ;D!
Kelly Nov 16th 2011 1:44PM
When I first saw the Call To Arms system back in 4.1 (?) I thought, "This is a bad idea, but has potential". And I was right. At first, it didn't work. But now, my queue times as DPS are a LOT shorter...
The LFR tool - BAD IDEA! BAD BAD BAD IDEA! If you can't handle being yelled at for 1 hour (as a tank) in a LFD, there is no chance that tanks will take to using the LFR!
Second - If DPS can't figure out where to stand on some the easy bosses in the LFD (even heroic), they have NO CHANCE in even the easiest of raids, so healers will not get involved in this.
Third - This leaves us lonely DPS... Waiting HOURS to get into a raid, only to have the tank leave after one bad pull, or the healer leave after most of the DPS stands in "the bad".
Sorry, but if you want to pug a raid, go to Org, go to SW, hit "/2" on your keyboard and start asking people...
sckeener Nov 16th 2011 1:45PM
I spent 6 hours in Stonecore at the start of cata. I can spend hours in Raid Finder. Eventually the tactics will become more widely known and the experience will be easier. One good thing about 25 man is more people will be exposed to the fights faster. It seemed to take a month for cata heroics to get easier. I expect the same with the raid finder.
whig Nov 16th 2011 2:05PM
I agree for the most part but think it will be better on live.
Most of the groups I've had on the PTR have been exactly like you describe, and I've only downed bosses in about a third of the groups I've joined. But the PTR is brutal, full of troll, russian AFKers, and constant DC.
There are real rewards to be had from the PTR, and I think a lot of good players are going to love the feature. As that group builds knowledge of the encounters through exposure (and yes lots of wipes) the need for strong leadership will lessen a bit.
I know lot of players who have the skill to raid at regular level but don't have the time to be part of a raid team. While yes, some of the encounters should probably be nerfed a bit, I think the LFR will be just as successful as the LFD; infuriating at times but eventually great for many players.
whig Nov 16th 2011 2:11PM
and of course I meant "There are real rewards to be had from the LFR."
Cameron Nov 16th 2011 2:18PM
"We are the shadowy 68%."
All raid-seriousness aside, I want to start using that as my new raid slogan, replacing "The mooses are aroused!" (the result of a late-night encounter between Beth'tilac and some irate Canadians).
Dan Nov 16th 2011 2:31PM
As I also wrote in the comments section of Christian Belt's mage article on the Raid Finder, I've tested the LFR quite extensively, and I have to say I agree with Fox. Despite my initial high hopes, my optimism has been shattered by dozens of raids identical to the ones Fox describes.
He's completely right about why this feature is not going to work in its current incarnation: it attempts to bring a raiding mindset to a 5-man crowd. Combine that with the cumbersome method of dealing with disconnects/AFKers and the general impatience of the LFD crowd - especially with tanks and healers (which is directly connected to their relative scarcity in pugs) - and you have a recipe for disaster.
The bosses that are most consistently downed in LFR are the simplest: Morchok and Yor'saj (the first two bosses in the Siege of Wyrmrest Temple queue option) and Ultraxion and Blackhorn (first two bosses of the Fall of Deathwing queue option). Because of this, I foresee plenty of 2/4 groups in both wings of the Raid Finder, but all the other bosses that are more complicated than that (i.e, Zon'ozz, Hagara, both parts of DW) are going to have to be nerfed into oblivion for a pure pug to have any chance at downing them.
Cameron Nov 16th 2011 2:43PM
Sadly, I have to agree. It's possible for leaders to emerge in a random selection of 25 players, and things will be easier once the general population has experience with the new raids. But overall I suspect that a lot of players will drop at the first sign of trouble given the time commitment involved, and those not used to raiding might get scared off altogether from the antics of impatient, experienced raiders using LFR for their alts.
A friend of mine who doesn't normally raid has expressed a great deal of interest in this feature. I'd really like to get him to give it a shot and see what he thinks.
PeeWee Nov 16th 2011 2:34PM
And once again Blizzard fails to comprehend that the problem isn't in the mechanics, but in the playerbase.
8/10 for effort Blizz, but this will fail utterly because of us.
Wilk Nov 16th 2011 3:01PM
I don't know why you're saying they don't comprehend it. The feeling I got from the article is that the playerbase is.. lazy? Spoiled? Unwilling to put enough effort into lfr? Blizzard isn't stupid. If we know what the playerbase is like, there's a good chance Blizzard knows it as well. It's just that they can't do all that much about it.
I feel your second sentence is accurate, but I'm not sure about 'fail utterly.' I would say it will be very rough going until people get used to lfr and what it takes to succeed in it. That is, if the playerbase even has the patience to adapt to what it takes to succeed in it.
The problem is the playerbase, not lfr itself (although the imperfect need+ system with regards to bears IS a problem.)
moladun Nov 16th 2011 6:08PM
IMO, it's not that Blizzard doesn't understand the problem, its that they are sick to death of people whining for a raid finder similar to the RDF. People asked, they're giving them exactly what they asked for. Shame on them for not understanding what they'd get with the player base.
Legs Nov 16th 2011 3:11PM
Hey I didn't say that he had to go all Happy Fun Time Propaganda! :) I was merely pointing out that he was being awfully pessimistic (again with the "...will fail..." quote) considering the small sample size and that there was some level of success by those groups.
On thing to keep in mind is to compare this to the general gnashing of teeth about how hard heroics were at the beginning of cata and to consider how easy they are now: I have no doubt that the community will get better as time goes on: experience with the encounters will increase, as will ilevels.
I find it interesting that you would write that last paragraph, as it is the exact polar opposite of the paragraph I would write. I pug with a bear tank, and I can honestly say that the number of awful runs is VASTLY outweighed by the number of decent runs, and in fact, is even outnumbered by the truly epic runs (i.e. successful Bear Mount run). As such, I see it EXACTLY as a cultural phenomenon that is imitated and replicated throughout the community (in this case as a form of friendly commiseration, and/or self righteousness)
Certainly awful runs occur, but I can honestly not remember when I was in a fail group that wasn't solvable with patience and/or the kicking of a single member. I guess it depends a lot on your perspective and a bit on luck... Perhaps one (or both!) of us is/are suffering from Confirmation Bias? That's actually one of the reasons that I would LOVE to see either a large scale community based study to get hard numbers on the subjective PuG experience, OR an in-game rating system for players/runs in the LFD tool.
Legs Nov 16th 2011 3:25PM
Admin please delete the above mis-post. Why is it so easy for replies to not go under the original post?!
Matt Nov 16th 2011 3:38PM
fair enough, fair enough. :)
you do make a good point the gradual easing/outgearing of 5 mans, but i feel like it's comparing apples and oranges. the level of communication and synchronicity required for raiding (if you're not running BH, i suppose) far outstrips that required for 5 man heroics. but then again, maybe im being too generous. maybe the LFR raids are meant to be 5 man heroics in everything but name and number of players? no idea.
as for my last paragraph, i really do sincerely congratulate you on your successes....i just wish i could share in them! from my experience, you are in the minority of players that have had overwhelmingly good experiences in the DF, due in most part to either luck, skill, personality, or a combination of the three. i think the gripes come not so much from poor execution (although i'm sure that's a good bit), but from the shitty attitudes so prevalent throughout. if you are blessed enough to have the mental armor to ward off such infinite poison and still come out smiling, then you sir/madam deserve a medal of the highest honor.
it sounds as though you are confirming my point about the meme language: a meme is something that is replicated regardless of your personal experiences. i think the attitude about PUGs is distinct from the meme phenomenon - it is different people coming together (commiserating, true) to share their individual experiences that existed independent of other experiences. it's sharing, not replicating.
for your last point, i agree that it would be awesome to see the results of such a study. i think both of us have made sound points even though we are on different ends of the opinion spectrum, and even though i'm a bit grumpy and pessimistic about the community's capability to come together and randomly succeed as a team on a complex and high functioning level, im still able to concede that things may not be all bad. it would be neat to see what can be objectively confirmed outside of our individual bias'!
MattKrotzer Nov 16th 2011 4:20PM
"On thing to keep in mind is to compare this to the general gnashing of teeth about how hard heroics were at the beginning of cata and to consider how easy they are now: I have no doubt that the community will get better as time goes on: experience with the encounters will increase, as will ilevels."
Heroics got easier because they were nerfed into oblivion. The player base didn't become more skilled, sadly. There were good signs that such a change was on it's way, after the first few weeks, watching people relearn CC methods, and understanding that charging and AOEing everything in sight isn't really a well thought out plan... but then Blizz caved to the lowest common denominator and lowered the difficulty off all Heroics across the board. People reverted to form, herping and derping their way to "success."