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11-16-2011 @ 1:44PM
I am disappointed to see you poisioning the well: your article will presumably encourage people who would otherwise competent to NOT use the raid finder which will in turn make the overall experience worse.You joined _3_ raids with the raid finder, on a ptr, when the encounters are brand new and you write off the tool because you couldn't get through the whole wing? That is incredibly short-sighted and pessimistic.I'm not here to say that the LFR tool is going to be awesome and we'll all prance through it collecting the loot like halloween candy, but come on, some perspective on your VERY limited experience with it would have gone a long way.
11-16-2011 @ 2:00PM
I would disagree: Fox isn't poisoning the well, he's sharing his experience. He didn't make it up or spin it..he just told us what happened. Just because it's a negative experience doesn't mean he has to shoot rainbows out of his arse while he's relating it to us. If anything, we as readers deserve a plain and accurate re-telling. Sugar coating it would be insulting.Regardless of his experience, if you've had at least two (I say two in deference to the cruelty of the RNG gods, because even if they lull you into a false sense of confidence with a smooth run at first, you better damn well believe the second one is going to make you want to fling yourself into traffic) you would agree that it's a very short hop in reasoning to estimate how the RF will play out live....and it's not gonna be pretty. So relax....and BOHICA, friend. Fox's perspective will have no bearing on what the RF is going to be like, nor will it affect how many people will want to try out the new gadget once it goes live. Under circumstances like these, people will always have the masochistic urge to satisfy their own curiosity, even if they know what's coming down the pipe beforehand.
11-16-2011 @ 2:03PM
at least two HDF runs^WTB Edit button =/
11-16-2011 @ 2:11PM
I would contend that he most definitely DID spin it (and it's his column so of course he can!): unless I'm mistaken, all 3 groups downed bosses (in 2 cases before he arrived), so the overriding theme could just as easily have been "new groups in the LFR tool seem very capable of getting some bosses down!". Instead, he said "This version of the Raid Finder will fail, because it's not what the players want it to be." If that's not editorializing I don't know what is!You're probably right that this single article isn't going to make a huge difference, but I do find the "PuGs are (always) terrible" meme in the WoW community to be pretty annoying since I think it's based on prejudiced thinking and not on unbiased reflection, but I suppose that rant can wait :)I am actually really looking forward to this on the live realms, and I think it will end up being, if not perfect, at least a useful tool for getting oneself geared.
11-16-2011 @ 2:30PM
Whats even scarier is that you typically DONT have noobs on the PTR. If his experience on the ptr was this bad, just consider what happens when it's released to the wild.
11-16-2011 @ 2:42PM
I can honestly say that I have no idea what the demographics on the PTR are.While I think it's fair to say that WoW noobs almost certainly don't show up there, I don't think this is a noob issue: first off, to get in, one has to at least get to 85 and then run enough current raids or new heroics to get one's ilevel high enough.Thus, I don't think noobs will be contaminating LFR for a good while: it's more about trolls/immature players.I think it will work better when it goes live: community experience will go up, there will more than likely be many more partial guild groups (10+ queuing, and we'll be able to set up partial groups through realm channels as well.
11-16-2011 @ 2:58PM
Point taken about the spin.However, while he definitely could have pushed to the readers the important thing is that LFR PUGs can get one boss down, to me that would be glossing over the nuts and bolts of the operation just to make people feel better about a flawed system. Even if he did make the tone optimistic, people would find out about the reality of it sooner or later anyway. If anything, Fox's take confirms what most of us already know about the dungeon-finder community anyway.Personally, I'd feel a little betrayed if he were to make the overriding theme one of general success when the road to that (miniscule chance of) success was long, grueling, and full of abuse, in turn making said success a lucky byproduct notwithstanding the reality of the group interaction. "Hey guys! LFR PUGs work because we downed a boss!...eh? what's that? no, we weren't able to finish the whole raid. Oh, and for the most part the attempts were such that it was amazing we were able to down the boss at all. But we got him anyway!" I, for one, don't like those odds. This isn't going to be something like the Archavon-styled raids where you can "PEWPEW...sidestep left..PEWPEW...sidestep right...WIN!" These are going to be the real deal...and the community fabric isn't strong enough to make it work.Lastly, PUGs ARE awful (most of the time)...calling that attitude a meme indicates that it was a cultural phenomenon that was imitated and replicated throughout the community for its own sake regardless of experience. Rather, I've found that the attitude is a shared sentiment formed by individual identical experiences. If you soberly reflect on your DF experiences and weigh the bad runs vs. the good, I very much doubt you'll come up with a percentage that refutes the majority population's claims that PUGs are, for the most part, crap.
11-16-2011 @ 3:17PM
"Whats even scarier is that you typically DONT have noobs on the PTR. If his experience on the ptr was this bad, just consider what happens when it's released to the wild."I'm going to suggest the opposite. My experience on the PTR was filled with people who were just curious about the feature, and didn't really have any motivation to down a boss.On live, you're actually going to have a reason to want to focus for a few minutes and try and kill the boss. On the PTR, people gave up super easily because they really just didn't care.The PTR is always full of lookie loos who don't read patch notes, and just want to play around with things more than they care to actually test and provide meaningful feedback, so I'm not surprised the PTR raid finder runs haven't gone well for a lot of groups.
11-16-2011 @ 3:25PM
Hey I didn't say that he had to go all Happy Fun Time Propaganda! :) I was merely pointing out that he was being awfully pessimistic (again with the "...will fail..." quote) considering the small sample size and that there was some level of success by those groups.On thing to keep in mind is to compare this to the general gnashing of teeth about how hard heroics were at the beginning of cata and to consider how easy they are now: I have no doubt that the community will get better as time goes on: experience with the encounters will increase, as will ilevels.I find it interesting that you would write that last paragraph, as it is the exact polar opposite of the paragraph I would write. I pug with a bear tank, and I can honestly say that the number of awful runs is VASTLY outweighed by the number of decent runs, and in fact, is even outnumbered by the truly epic runs (i.e. successful Bear Mount run). As such, I see it EXACTLY as a cultural phenomenon that is imitated and replicated throughout the community (in this case as a form of friendly commiseration, and/or self righteousness)Certainly awful runs occur, but I can honestly not remember when I was in a fail group that wasn't solvable with patience and/or the kicking of a single member. I guess it depends a lot on your perspective and a bit on luck... Perhaps one (or both!) of us is/are suffering from Confirmation Bias? That's actually one of the reasons that I would LOVE to see either a large scale community based study to get hard numbers on the subjective PuG experience, OR an in-game rating system for players/runs in the LFD tool.
11-16-2011 @ 3:50PM
Matt replied to an accidental non-reply post, so I will copy it up here to keep the discussion cohesive:==============Matt said...fair enough, fair enough. :)you do make a good point the gradual easing/outgearing of 5 mans, but i feel like it's comparing apples and oranges. the level of communication and synchronicity required for raiding (if you're not running BH, i suppose) far outstrips that required for 5 man heroics. but then again, maybe im being too generous. maybe the LFR raids are meant to be 5 man heroics in everything but name and number of players? no idea.as for my last paragraph, i really do sincerely congratulate you on your successes....i just wish i could share in them! from my experience, you are in the minority of players that have had overwhelmingly good experiences in the DF, due in most part to either luck, skill, personality, or a combination of the three. i think the gripes come not so much from poor execution (although i'm sure that's a good bit), but from the shitty attitudes so prevalent throughout. if you are blessed enough to have the mental armor to ward off such infinite poison and still come out smiling, then you sir/madam deserve a medal of the highest honor.it sounds as though you are confirming my point about the meme language: a meme is something that is replicated regardless of your personal experiences. i think the attitude about PUGs is distinct from the meme phenomenon - it is different people coming together (commiserating, true) to share their individual experiences that existed independent of other experiences. it's sharing, not replicating.for your last point, i agree that it would be awesome to see the results of such a study. i think both of us have made sound points even though we are on different ends of the opinion spectrum, and even though i'm a bit grumpy and pessimistic about the community's capability to come together and randomly succeed as a team on a complex and high functioning level, im still able to concede that things may not be all bad. it would be neat to see what can be objectively confirmed outside of our individual bias'!==========
11-16-2011 @ 3:56PM
I think you may have misunderstood my addressing the meme thing: I was relating it to confirmation bias in that I think people perceive the aggregate "goodness" of their PuG runs as much lower than they actually were because they are predisposed to remember the bad ones (i.e. the meme primed them to be pessimistic, and thus pass on that pessimism to others).I would really love to see that study. I think it could be a very interesting one for a psych student, as I believe that the study of confirmation bias/memes would be right up someone's alley.I am a programmer, so I immediately thought of making an addon to prompt people to rate their experience after each PuG... I have considered making one in the past, so maybe I will. A quick google search did turn this up, though it seems to be more targetted at individual player ratings rather than overall experience (though you could presumably get some data from it): http://www.curse.com/addons/wow/grouper
11-16-2011 @ 4:00PM
whoops! Thanks, Legs! :D!
11-16-2011 @ 4:06PM
Matt, regardless of our differing opinion on PuGs, I think it's safe to say we would agree that the joystiq comment system is truly awful...
11-16-2011 @ 5:26PM
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