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11-16-2011 @ 3:11PM
Hey I didn't say that he had to go all Happy Fun Time Propaganda! :) I was merely pointing out that he was being awfully pessimistic (again with the "...will fail..." quote) considering the small sample size and that there was some level of success by those groups.On thing to keep in mind is to compare this to the general gnashing of teeth about how hard heroics were at the beginning of cata and to consider how easy they are now: I have no doubt that the community will get better as time goes on: experience with the encounters will increase, as will ilevels.I find it interesting that you would write that last paragraph, as it is the exact polar opposite of the paragraph I would write. I pug with a bear tank, and I can honestly say that the number of awful runs is VASTLY outweighed by the number of decent runs, and in fact, is even outnumbered by the truly epic runs (i.e. successful Bear Mount run). As such, I see it EXACTLY as a cultural phenomenon that is imitated and replicated throughout the community (in this case as a form of friendly commiseration, and/or self righteousness)Certainly awful runs occur, but I can honestly not remember when I was in a fail group that wasn't solvable with patience and/or the kicking of a single member. I guess it depends a lot on your perspective and a bit on luck... Perhaps one (or both!) of us is/are suffering from Confirmation Bias? That's actually one of the reasons that I would LOVE to see either a large scale community based study to get hard numbers on the subjective PuG experience, OR an in-game rating system for players/runs in the LFD tool.
11-16-2011 @ 3:25PM
Admin please delete the above mis-post. Why is it so easy for replies to not go under the original post?!
11-16-2011 @ 3:38PM
fair enough, fair enough. :)you do make a good point the gradual easing/outgearing of 5 mans, but i feel like it's comparing apples and oranges. the level of communication and synchronicity required for raiding (if you're not running BH, i suppose) far outstrips that required for 5 man heroics. but then again, maybe im being too generous. maybe the LFR raids are meant to be 5 man heroics in everything but name and number of players? no idea.as for my last paragraph, i really do sincerely congratulate you on your successes....i just wish i could share in them! from my experience, you are in the minority of players that have had overwhelmingly good experiences in the DF, due in most part to either luck, skill, personality, or a combination of the three. i think the gripes come not so much from poor execution (although i'm sure that's a good bit), but from the shitty attitudes so prevalent throughout. if you are blessed enough to have the mental armor to ward off such infinite poison and still come out smiling, then you sir/madam deserve a medal of the highest honor.it sounds as though you are confirming my point about the meme language: a meme is something that is replicated regardless of your personal experiences. i think the attitude about PUGs is distinct from the meme phenomenon - it is different people coming together (commiserating, true) to share their individual experiences that existed independent of other experiences. it's sharing, not replicating. for your last point, i agree that it would be awesome to see the results of such a study. i think both of us have made sound points even though we are on different ends of the opinion spectrum, and even though i'm a bit grumpy and pessimistic about the community's capability to come together and randomly succeed as a team on a complex and high functioning level, im still able to concede that things may not be all bad. it would be neat to see what can be objectively confirmed outside of our individual bias'!
11-16-2011 @ 4:20PM
"On thing to keep in mind is to compare this to the general gnashing of teeth about how hard heroics were at the beginning of cata and to consider how easy they are now: I have no doubt that the community will get better as time goes on: experience with the encounters will increase, as will ilevels."Heroics got easier because they were nerfed into oblivion. The player base didn't become more skilled, sadly. There were good signs that such a change was on it's way, after the first few weeks, watching people relearn CC methods, and understanding that charging and AOEing everything in sight isn't really a well thought out plan... but then Blizz caved to the lowest common denominator and lowered the difficulty off all Heroics across the board. People reverted to form, herping and derping their way to "success."
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