Patch 5.4 patch notes
Virtual Realms feature revealed
The Proving Grounds are coming
The latest patch 5.4 newsBreakfast Topic: Are players becoming too entitled?
by Matthew Krotzer 
Nov 17th 2011 at 8:00AM
WoW has been around for quite a while. We've seen years of advancements and improvements to the game, from abilities and talent overhauls and quest and encounter design improvements, to vast quality-of-life improvements like the Dungeon Finder, Real ID chat and the Mobile Guild Chat and Mobile Auction House. With all these added features, more and more players seem to take them for granted.
With ongoing requests for the removal of the raid group restriction for low-level raids, suggestions of various ways and means of using the Dungeon Finder to access outleveled dungeons, and even the complaints about "easy mode" versions of raids in the upcoming Raid Finder not providing achievements and legendary weapon quest items, more and more players seem to want more from Blizzard while expending less effort on their end.
Perhaps the playerbase has undergone a major shift, just as Azeroth has in Cataclysm. Maybe I've just never fully adjusted to the new paradigm since I began to play during vanilla WoW -- or maybe you darn kids should get off of mah lawn!
Has it gone too far? Is Azeroth as a whole nothing but a staging area from which we should expect to be instantly transported to wherever we wish to go, or are we still willing to enjoy the journey to our destinations? Is a modicum of human interaction too heady a task to enjoy raid content, no matter its level?
It's hard to say. What are your thoughts?
Filed under: Guest Posts
Reader Comments (Page 2 of 8)
Borick Nov 17th 2011 11:35AM
My grandpa, with no education in the 50's, earned as much (adjusted for inflation) as a four-year graduate from engineering school. My father, with a two-year tech certificate in the 70's, made TWICE what I make now.
Both of them paid one-fourth as much for their mortgage and they had far less to pay in taxes and utilities.
People are motivated relative to their incentive. When the new retirement age is 80 and the boomer generation won't give up their jobs and die like the previous generations did for their parents... the problem isn't simple laziness at all.
Borick Nov 17th 2011 11:36AM
Parents = children.
This website needs an edit function.
Nagaina Nov 17th 2011 11:39AM
@ Metric,
That is, admittedly, part of the problem we're having -- the burnout and frustration occasioned by the raiding learning curve has more or less decimated out ability to keep a "core" progression raid group intact for more than a few weeks at a time. This problem is sharply exacerbated by the fact that our current Warlord (officer in charge of raiding) despises Vent and tends to think that issuing raid warnings for auto-wipe mechanics is unnecessary hand-holding -- and he might be right *if* we had a totally consistent group of core raiders that go out week after week and everybody was using a top of the line machine without any possibility of latency issues. We most emphatically do not have any of those things. Part of it is leadership not wanting to bend to the realities of the situation; part of it is the realities of the situation, the unforgiving nature of high-end Cataclysm raiding, exacerbating flaws of leadership.
Matt P Nov 17th 2011 12:17PM
I apologize that wanting to play a game for entertainment's sake makes me lazy. I usually devout my serious time to finding a job and figuring out a way to pay off my student loans, but I'm in the wrong. Then again, I guess since I haven't found a job yet that makes me lazy and unmotivated, too.
I'm just a bad egg. : /
Boobah Nov 17th 2011 1:23PM
"The end goal is not to accomplish less, but to do it more efficiently. "
Nobody's (well, to be realistic, almost nobody) is complaining about folks doing things more efficiently in game.
The problem is the meta-gaming. When your first solution to the problem of 'I'm not gearing up as quickly as I would like' is to whine on the forums rather than set more realistic goals, evaluate whether you actually need that gear, and/or spend more time gearing, that's a problem. At that point, we're not really playing the same game any longer, and what's worse, breaking my game of WoW has become one of the winning conditions of your game of Buff Me (or sometimes Nerf Them. Whichever.)
Homeschool Nov 17th 2011 1:28PM
It's not so much a degradation of values, as it is a paradigm shift. It's been observed in various realms of humanity, and is causing a significant schism between the old generation and the new.
Previous generations were built on concepts of loyalty, mutual dependence, and hard work. The theory was, "we'll take care of you, and you take care of us". People could realistically expect that if they went to work every day, put in a solid 8 hours, and met the requirements, that they would be paid a fair wage and be assured of their career. They were exchanging effort for security.
Well, all of that's gone, and I don't think we can blame the rising generation. Most of us grew up watching our parents work long hours for little pay, scrape to support a family, and then get laid off by the faceless corporation. Whether that teaches us that the world is based on an "eat or be eaten" mentality, or fills one with a righteous indignation that anyone could be so abused, or leads to a despair that things will ever be different, the fact is that this generation grew up in a very different world. Can you be surprised that we see things in a very different light?
The modern generation is not willing to wait years or even months for the payback, because they know that the relationship might not last that long. They don't show loyalty unless loyalty is shown to them, and they feel that it's their right to expect that. They believe that position does not mean value, and expect to be judged on their individual merits. They watch the super-wealthy get huge quantities of money without matching effort, and they translate the jealousy into a question, "Why should I have to lose so they can gain?"
Look at the world around you, and imagine that you grew up with the understanding that investments were likely to be lost money, rather than a guarantee for the future; in a world where neither the quantity nor quality of work relates to the reward. Can you honestly be surprised that children don't want to wait on a hope and work for a dream?
kaminari Nov 17th 2011 3:32PM
Everyone want to do less and get more, regardless of what the venue is.
Back when I was a kid that was called 'being lazy'. What's it called today?
Today we call it "progress".
regardless of the venue we are doing a lot more with far less effort than 50 years ago, if anyone thinks "let's take it further", I agree.
albanesp Nov 18th 2011 12:01PM
@Nagaina,
Sounds like your Warlord is a big part of the problem. We rely on vent for communications and also set up markers everywhere to help with raid awareness. Your Warlord is doing you a disservice. We call out everything and people talk all through out our raids. It definitely helps. Your warlord may think baby-sitting or hand holding is bad, but he is cutting off his nose...as the saying goes.
We are farming 6/7 hard modes and I don't consider us an "elite" or hard-core guild, but we do have an active boss strategy forum, we steal ideas liberally from Fat Boss and L2Raid, and often challenge/make suggestions to our "warlord" when she we believe we have contributions to make. We also have 10 raiders that show up each and every week, which helps as well.
I know for a fact that lag can kill tanks on Heroic Alysrazor for example, so I feel your pain. But, these fights are not that hard if you prepare a strategy and make sure everyone does their part. Replace those that don't pull their weight if progression is that important (as opposed to friendship and loyalty to guild mates, even the baddies).
zinckiwi Nov 17th 2011 8:10AM
I get huge nostalgia pangs for EverQuest, and miss the days when I would spend -- with brief breaks for eating and slightly longer ones for sleeping -- literally the entire weekend in-game. That was in the days when someone would leave the group after a mere two or three hours and you'd feel quite put out indeed that they didn't stick around for a reasonable, sensible amount of time.
However, I suspect that it's not the game I miss as much as the time in my life where I could fritter away a whole weekend on something like playing EverQuest. I think that game was very much a product of its time: the first generation of life-long computer gamers were college students, or recent graduates with means, in the late 90s. That same generation are now spouses and parents. WoW is a product of this time.
Xandread Nov 17th 2011 12:48PM
Exactly. I'm a business owner, father, and husband. There is no realistic way I can do all of those important things and still spend hours and hours in-game. I want to have fun, and yes I don't mind working, but having to put as much effort as a full-time job into my gaming sounds an awful lot like work I'm paying for.
dj.clayden Nov 17th 2011 8:14AM
I think the reason this is a hard topic to argue about is that it's not easy to figure out where the line is between improving quality of life, and simply giving everyone what they want without any effort. I don't think many people agree on where that line is. I personally don't care much, as long as I can still raid (and they make fun encounters) everything else is fine by me, I'll still be playing.
The only thing that I dislike, is people who seem to want raid level gear without raiding. I don't and probably never will understand it.
If someone who *does* want the raid level gear without raiding could reply and provide me with some insight I'll gladly have a back-and-forth with you as long as it doesn't head towards a flame war.
Othgan Nov 17th 2011 8:36AM
When you hit max level, what else is there to do to progress your character, you get better gear. I never raided in Wrath outside trade chat PuGs (even though I really wanted to. High school and a Pacific time server don't mix well on the East Coast). I wanted the new gear because I wanted to feel more powerful. Was it useful? In a way it was. I kept people from carrying me through heroics and whenever I PuGed a raid I knew I could pull my own weight.
Also, even though some people hate them, most of the time Tier Gear looks fantastic. I probably would have been pissed off as a DK if I couldn't get any of the T10 gear because it just looks great. Best DK tier so far IMO.
Kolyarut Nov 17th 2011 8:41AM
I'll bite once, since I have a few minutes of lunch break spare.
Non raiders run out of new things to do faster than raiders, and spend longer on the content they're doing (example - before my guild raided Firelands, I would spend up to six or seven hours a week trying to get valour capped. Now we do, capping takes three hours at worst). In return for the increased time spent trying to accomplish the same goal, they feel entitled to at least expect a fair reward.
Take away their valour points from heroics, and what happens? Eventually they run out of alts to level, so they stop playing. Unless they're annual passers, they cancel their accounts and Blizzard stops getting the money to pay for developing the raids.
Bear in mind that when you're raiding, you're already being rewarded with exclusive content and achievements. It seems bizarre to me for raiders (which, as I say, I'm happy to be one of again) to resent the people who aren't doing all this exciting content just because they still want a way to (slowly, painfully, repetetively) improve their characters over time.
Why get mad over people being thrown your scraps? They're not taking anything from you personally.
Lloren Nov 17th 2011 8:48AM
First, I am a raider... However, I can totally see why even someone who is not would want to get raiding level gear. First, the game is built around progressing your character. Once you hit max level, getting gear is part of that progression. Second, everyone likes their character to look "cool". And (generally) raiding gear tends to be the cool looking gear. Third, and this sort of relates to the first one, we want our characters to feel powerful. Even if you only ever do 5 mans, it would be a little disheartening to still need to CC and carefully plan every pull of the same dungeons we were running at release almost a year later. That makes the game boring and stale is what makes people quit the game. If people don't always have something to work for, why keep logging in? Lastly, as the general population gears up from tier to tier, there becomes an expectation that the people you happen across in LFG, etc will be relatively on par with you. If a fresh level 85 gets in a group with t12 raiders, they get treated like some idiotic asshat that doesn't have a right to be playing the game. Maybe it's not the way things should be, but it is the way things are.
goldeneye Nov 17th 2011 8:55AM
I'll concur with the previous replyers.
I, as a would-be raider, would still like to see some progression. I don't expect iLvl 403 gear from non-raiding activities, but iLvl 378 can't be that much to ask. If anything, it helps me get ready for that one time, when the stars align, and I DO get into a raid, I will at least have the gear to not look TOO ridiculous.
Now if only I could get better weapons than my iLvl 353 Gurubashi Punisher and Zulian Slasher...
Come 4.3, I will welcome LFR and all it's Pugging Glory with open arms. I'll gladly wipe hours on end (or as much as time permits), gawping at the scenery while people are corpse-running, bickering and waiting for tank no. 65.
Until then I patiently gather Valor and Justice Points. Once a month I can spend the Valor to buy myself a nice upgrade. The Justice, after filling the gaping holes left by questing and getting bad drops from heroics (curse you Kilnara !!), gets spent on heirlooms for my precious army of alts.
I fail to see how my struggle diminishes a raider's performance.
Xantenise Nov 17th 2011 9:46AM
"If someone who *does* want the raid level gear without raiding could reply and provide me with some insight I'll gladly have a back-and-forth with you as long as it doesn't head towards a flame war."
I earned my entire T10 over several months, barely setting foot in any raids, simply by grinding heroics every day for my frost emblems.
I think that's reasonable, considering I put in consistent effort and poured a lot of time into it. I didn't expect it to be handed to me on a silver platter, I went in there every single day and got my frosts.
I liked it because it was a good balance. Non-raiders could still get ICC-level gear, but they still had to put effort into it.
dj.clayden Nov 17th 2011 10:29AM
Fair enough, but personally I don't care about progressing my character in that sense (or looking cool). I only care about gear up to the point where I can heal the last boss of the tier without any problems, after that I'll gladly pass gear until nobody else needs it.
I get why people want the gear now without raiding though, that was genuinely why I asked, I just wanted to understand it better so I can be better informed, which some people care about.
-----------------------------------------
And just wondering Kolyarut, why did you respond like that?
"I'll bite once", "Why get mad over people being thrown your scraps?", "resent the people who aren't doing all this exciting content"
I thought I phrased my post well enough that people would realise I'm neither trolling nor "mad", just curious. I also definitely don't resent them wanting the gear - if they want it and Blizzard is happy for them to get it then me wanting Blizzard to take that opportunity away would just be vindictive.
There was no need to respond quite like that, although I do appreciate the reply :)
dj.clayden Nov 17th 2011 10:32AM
Ah I just read my OP yet again and saw the problem:
"The only thing that I dislike, is people who seem to want raid level gear without raiding. I don't and probably never will understand it."
You're right to take that as you did, it's badly phrased and I assure you I didn't mean I dislike the people who want the gear :)
Wish I could delete posts, I'd delete/edit the one above this.
loop_not_defined Nov 17th 2011 10:59AM
Suggesting that non-raiders have no gear advancement after hitting max-level is rather misleading, though. WotLK greatly expanded on the Badge system introduced in BC, and offered newer, more powerful rewards with each major raid patch. Obviously this system has continued into Cataclysm.
In 4.3, non-raiders (such as myself) will again have new gear to work towards, which includes both Valor gear and Heroic Dungeon drops.
Really, the gear curve for non-raiders and raiders is roughly the same, only being slightly behind. But there IS a gear curve for non-raiders. Saying otherwise is simply false.
Amanda A. Nov 17th 2011 11:39AM
The other problem with non-raiders having no access whatsoever to raid-level gear is that, eventually, they get locked out of pugging into raids because they're not overgeared enough. On some servers this can get ridiculous-- on my old server, in late Wrath, my healer in full tier 10 and mostly ICC gear got turned down for a Naxx 10 run because she didn't have a high enough gear score. -_- I'm having something of the same problem with one of my characters' offspec; I resorted to PvP shoulders after eight months of losing upgrades or watching them not drop, and some people act as if I'm comitting a horrible sin against PvE by using an item that increases my DPS...