Patch 5.3 interview with Ghostcrawler
Mystery of the Unborn Val'kyr
The latest patch 5.3 news
All of the latest Mists of Pandaria newsBreakfast Topic: Are players becoming too entitled?
by Matthew Krotzer 
Nov 17th 2011 at 8:00AM
WoW has been around for quite a while. We've seen years of advancements and improvements to the game, from abilities and talent overhauls and quest and encounter design improvements, to vast quality-of-life improvements like the Dungeon Finder, Real ID chat and the Mobile Guild Chat and Mobile Auction House. With all these added features, more and more players seem to take them for granted.
With ongoing requests for the removal of the raid group restriction for low-level raids, suggestions of various ways and means of using the Dungeon Finder to access outleveled dungeons, and even the complaints about "easy mode" versions of raids in the upcoming Raid Finder not providing achievements and legendary weapon quest items, more and more players seem to want more from Blizzard while expending less effort on their end.
Perhaps the playerbase has undergone a major shift, just as Azeroth has in Cataclysm. Maybe I've just never fully adjusted to the new paradigm since I began to play during vanilla WoW -- or maybe you darn kids should get off of mah lawn!
Has it gone too far? Is Azeroth as a whole nothing but a staging area from which we should expect to be instantly transported to wherever we wish to go, or are we still willing to enjoy the journey to our destinations? Is a modicum of human interaction too heady a task to enjoy raid content, no matter its level?
It's hard to say. What are your thoughts?
Filed under: Guest Posts
Reader Comments (Page 4 of 8)
michael.l.gibson Nov 17th 2011 8:28AM
"I just want my fair share; I just want what's coming to me." Bonus points to anyone who can name the source.
Chetti Nov 17th 2011 8:34AM
isn't it 'i only want whats coming to me, all i want is my fair share"... from a Charlie Brown Christmas. :) I love that!
Chris Nov 17th 2011 8:28AM
I don’t think this is a player issue. In order to increase subscribers, Blizz has to appeal to a wider spectrum of players. They solidified their reputation in vanilla by offering a deep experience to a player base who could spend a lot of time for quite minimal rewards (remember Molten Core raiding? hours spent for a handful of purples split between 40 people). The consistent changes designed to offer more experiences to a wider variety of players shouldn’t be looked at as a diminution of the game. The hours long grind of raiding can still be experienced, so its not as if they have taken anything away. The potential experience is just wider and more varied, with more opportunities for more types of players.
Noyou Nov 17th 2011 10:37AM
I think Matt is definitely on point. I also feel like you bring up a valid point as well Chris. Each time blizzard nerfs something or gives us a quality of life change, it's not to make anything easier so much as it is to make it more accessible to "the masses". With this brings a sense of entitlement and contempt. If blizzard wants to continuously add subs they realize they have to keep changing the content, as WoW grows, they have to make the 1-level cap quicker, less daunting. Some players will look at 90 levels as a huge challenge. Some will look at it as a great journey. I know when I am choosing a game, I would rather take the one with more levels than less. More doesn't always mean better but to me it always seemed like the longer they wanted you to play, the more there will be to do. It seems like with 4.3, now more than ever they are listening to what the bulk of players want. With this comes a double edge sword, just because the majority of people want something doesn't always mean it will be the best for the game in the long run. Time will tell.
Lupos Nov 17th 2011 8:36AM
I feel it is possible to make engaging raid content that harkens back to old school WoW while allowing users who would never see the content experience it. They already have this system in the heroic, normal modes. They should tune the heroic raids for the bleeding edge, the 10% and regular mode for regular Ol' Jonny Raider.
It didn't work for heroic 5-mans because those were part of the progression path that people needed to hop into raiding so everyone had to get past that gate. Now we will have challenge modes that hopefully make that content fulfilling for the hardcore and provide a meaningful reward.
Basically, the hardest modes should be out of the usual progression path but still provide suitable top-of-the-line rewards. That way hardcore raiders get their meaningful content and casuals get to see it while the content is still relevant.
Kaphik Nov 17th 2011 8:42AM
Becoming?? It's been quite a while now that I've noticed many people no longer look at WoW, and other MMOs, and games they need to actually play. I don't know where this idea sprang up that because you pay for a game subscription that means you are automatically entitled to get everything in the game solely by paying for the game sub.
Geiss Nov 17th 2011 8:53AM
GET OFF MY LAWN
Transit Nov 17th 2011 8:52AM
The article touches on a lot of things I would not exactly call being lazy.
Allowing people to enter old "Raids" by themselves is not acting like they are entitled or lazy. And queing for outdated instanced areas (LFG Black Temple) or something like that is also a request I can see people wanting. Not me personally, but I can see how for other people it would be useful.
The real problem comes with the mounts and raid level gear. And this is a grey area. When people get on a firebird mount, fly 10 yards in the air in front of the main faction AH, and go afk. And they do this for the sole purpose of getting attention, they are going to get attention. Blizzard encourages this to encourage people to raid. But this encouragement can go two ways.
Getting that nice mount, or shoulders, or whatever is not just having skill as a player. It is also the 9/24 other people that the player knows that will let the player come to the raid that will get the mount or gear. You can be the best tank/dps/healer on the server. But if you are not raiding with the right people that can get that item you are out of luck.
Maybe it is because they don't play at the right time that the high end raiding guild is raiding. Or maybe they play overseas and the lag makes you ineffectual in 25 man raiding. Or maybe they can play for only 1 hr window at a time. There is a lot or reasons why someone cannot raid with a standard group.
But then go back to the guy on the mount in front of the AH. The player may have the better skill or whatever, but because they don't have the support of 9/24 other people (or if some other reason presents itself) to get into a good raid it will remain out of reach. And that causes problems and people will complain about it.
Basically it comes down to this. Wave candy in front of someone for long enough they are going to want it. But then placing hurdles in the way to get the candy is going to foster resentment about not getting it. Particularly if those hurdles are ones that are not easily overcome even with skill. And resentment can be viewed as entitlement.
goldeneye Nov 17th 2011 9:04AM
It's nice to be able to get nice things through perseverence. Impractical to apply to all nice things though.
I could get a Vial of the Sands if I persevere to save up 30 to 40k to buy one on the AH.
I could get a Tundra Traveler's Mammoth.
I could get dual Obsidian Cleaver for my DK.
Not being able to get everything we want, or even could get, is something you're supposed to learn as a child though ("No, you can't have that LEGO. Your sister is playing with it now.", "No, you can't get that second piece of pie. You've been teasing your brother with that LEGO all day."). Can you tell I'm a parent? :)
Not being envious of what other people have is another one.
Transit Nov 17th 2011 10:02AM
@goldeneye
Oh I agree with what you are saying. I have been all over the place in the raiding game and I am not really upset with how the game system works. I am just pointing out where the complaints could be coming from.
I think blizzard is doing a fine job with it personally.
But many people view this as a game and do not want to spend a lot of time with it. Or that they do have the time but maybe there is a other barrier (lag) that they cannot overcome. But they still would like to have access to places/items that other people have.
Vai Nov 17th 2011 9:05AM
I've never quite understood the idea behind "entitlement" in an MMO. I mean, you play the game for fun, correct? So how has "I spent 10 hours doing something I find enjoyable for that lewt, but you want it for spending 2 hours doing something enjoyable, you're an entitled casual" ever survived as an argument?
It's as though the game is viewed as work, and those who don't work don't deserve anything. In a non-competitive form of entertainment it's a baffling philosophy, as long as challenging and difficult versions of the content are provided for people who enjoy them, why does it matter if anyone else can pick up the same gear for doing something easier? You're doing something you enjoy, they're doing something they enjoy, and everyone likes picking up sparkly loot. The very concept that they'd be entitled because they personally enjoy less difficult content than another person is bizarre.
MattKrotzer Nov 17th 2011 10:03AM
I enjoy my job. I get to be creative and artistic. It would bother me if someone came in and did the same job at a vastly lower level, and got the same compensation as me.
"But that's work, not a game." Effort is effort, whether you segregate it into compartments or not is your decision.
Mr. Crow Nov 17th 2011 10:10AM
it's a really good point to consider that different people have different ideas of what qualifies as fun.
I've been playing substantially less lately (gogo NaNoWriMo!) because the guild I'm in is a) STILL not at max guild level because b) the only people in the guild are casual raiders who c) only log into the game for one four-hour raiding session once a week. I never see any dungeon challenges getting completed. I can't complete any because there's never more than one other person on whenever I log on.
I know that my guildmates are having fun because of what they accomplish in their one raiding session a week. But I don't feel like I'm having fun because I'm not helping my guild progress in the ways I want to progress. If I had the motivator of "hey, i'm rolling with guildies in 5-mans" then that would be a greater reason for me to log in than "hey, I'm rolling with smack-talking pugs to get my VP."
I have fun rolling with my friends, and all of my friends have moved on to other games.
Or they play on the Horde. *shrug*
Matt Nov 17th 2011 10:21AM
Gotta agree with Matt on this one...whether it's a game or work, reward should be proportionate to effort.
for one thing, the game IS competitive to a lot of people. but it doesn't logically follow that a player's mindset should set the standards of who gets what. if that was the case, gear itself would become meaningless, as it is well on its way to becoming. "oh, you just picked up tarecgosa's rest after months of grinding? neat! maybe i'll knock it out from start to finish this weekend. turning into a dragon would is SO COOL, amirite?! LOL!"
for example, I see plenty of people playing pickup football games at the park on the weekends...but noone is offering them multi million dollar contracts just because they decide to play. By your line of reasoning, they are just playing to have fun and should be entitled to the same reward as a professional football player who puts in way more blood, sweat, and tears to ultimately do the same thing - play a fun football game. both people find it to be a fun game, but you won't find anyone argue that the weekend pickup gamers deserve just as much money as the professionals. it's that kind of backwards logic that exemplifies the entitled mindset of players today, and it's a damned shame.
MattKrotzer Nov 17th 2011 10:51AM
@MrCrow: Sounds like you need a new guild that can provide what you're looking for.
@Matt: Thanks. You're spot-on with me on this one.
Mr. Crow Nov 17th 2011 10:58AM
@Matt: I don't think the football analogy really works though, because of this reason: Are pro footballers playing because the game is fun or because they're getting paid multimillion-dollar contracts?
The problem is that gear is being looked at as the reward here. The gear isn't really the reward! The fun you have while playing through the content is supposed to be the rewarding element of the game. So by that logic, if you're having fun, and having greater gear would enable you to have more fun, people should have avenues to get gear so that they can have MORE FUN.
To use Krotzer's writing analogy: "I spent ten hours creating something and was compensated with X. Another person spent two hours creating something and was also compensated with X." Was the time spent creating something rewarding because you got paid, or because you enjoyed the process of creating something? All the compensation enables you to do is just do things that are necessary, like keep the power on, buy food. Those aren't fun activities, but they're necessary, so we need money to do it. But money it itself isn't really a fun thing. CREATING SOMETHING is a fun thing, and you got to do it for ten hours when the other fool only got two hours.
Vai Nov 17th 2011 11:09AM
Football is a competitive sport, unless you're in a sponsored top level guild WoW PvE is not. The comparison doesn't hold up. WoW is not a sport, it's not a job, it's a form of entertainment.
Sports are competitive, you work hard to best the next guy and you fight him for the rewards. Work is also competitive, you work hard to get the job and keep the job from someone who threatens to work harder/better.
WoW is neither of these things, if Casual A gets the Helm of Phat Loot, then that doesn't have any bearing on Raider B's ability to get the same. However there are a limited number of job positions and NFL contracts, so it's a totally different situation.
As far as I can see it's like this, say you have three levels of content, Hard, Normal and Easy. Player A likes the challenge from Hard and finds the other two boring. Player B finds Hard frustrating and Easy boring, he chooses normal. Player C finds both Hard and Normal to be frustrating and finds Easy fun. Why should A, B or C get any special rewards for doing what they enjoy? A likes the challenge, B likes the balance, C likes the calm, all three pay the same, all three are doing just what they enjoy, so why have any difference in reward? Because A "works"? No, he doesn't, he's just playing the way he enjoys the same as the other two.
Transit Nov 17th 2011 11:44AM
@MattKrotzer
I would have to disagree with your job or football analogy here. I think a better analogy would be to imagine two neighbors. One neighbor goes out and mows their lawn makes their house looks nice. The other neighbor sees this and also wants a nice lawn. Now your argument would be that to have a nice lawn this second neighbor should go out and 'earn' a nice lawn by doing the work to get it. And you would be right. The second neighbor should take the time and effort of getting a nice lawn if they want a nice lawn, just as if they want a nice mount they should go out and do the work to get it.
But lawns (and jobs) and raids are not the same. Imagine if getting a nice lawn required a team of other people who specialize in different jobs and worked in perfect unison. Oh! And this team gets to dictate when the lawn is mowed and you have to be there for it so your choice of mowing teams is limited. And they are only taking you because no one else wants to pull up the weeds. Yes you want to ride the tractor, but too bad, your job is weeding. So even if everything else is working for you, you are doing a job you dislike with the team.
And a few of the team members like to mow lawns drunk.
Good luck with the lawn, who knows you could get one that looks like your neighbor but it is not likely.
Tis is a more realistic analogy.
Getting rewards in raiding is not solo work. It is a team game and you only get the rewards your team gets.
Matt Nov 17th 2011 11:59AM
vai - your sports comparison is easily transcribed to WoW. in sports, you are a member of a team...working towards the common goal of succeeding against the competition. players compete with themselves, each other, and the opposition for various goals, substantive or not. in WoW, the mindset is exactly the same: players work together towards a common goal of succeeding against a PvE or PvP objective. they compete against themselves to beat their DPS PR, against each other to roll for a single piece of loot, and against the opposition to win the right to roll on that loot, get more points to buy better PvE/PvP loot, etc. and all the while it's for the sake of entertainment, exactly like sports!
and like any other thing in life...ever...the expectation is that the more effort you put in to achieving something, the more compensated you should be...and rightly so!
your hard/normal/easy comparison is a little of the mark...heroic modes are heroic because the boss hits harder, has more HP, and the fights are much more complex than normal, requiring player X to pay more attention, possess better skill, and a higher degree of class and fight mechanics comprehension in order to succeed. more is expected of the player, and when the player delivers, they get their reward. simple as that. because player Z doesn't feel like devoting the time, attention, and skill necessary to overcome the greater challenge they cannot claim a right to the better reward! it's illogical and absurd!
i've never raided heroic and most likely never will. in fact, im currently unsubscribed because of RL matters and the fact that i've hit a wall in regards to my rewards being proportional to the effort im willing and able to spend to get them. and you know what? i'm ok with that, because like every other rational adult, i understand that them's the breaks...and to claim a right to something you haven't earned is illogical and unfair to those that have worked hard to get what they got. and at the risk of sounding hyperbolic, it can even be considered almost criminal, depending on the real world context! (theft, anyone?)
players pay for the right to play the game at all, not for the right to get the best stuff for free. if they want something, they should put in the time and effort to do it...if not, too bad so sad. be content with the things you can get, and if you're not then you are free to do something else that gives you a reward proportional to the effort you're prepared to give.
Vai Nov 17th 2011 2:36PM
"and when the player delivers, they get their reward. simple as that. because player Z doesn't feel like devoting the time, attention, and skill necessary to overcome the greater challenge they cannot claim a right to the better reward! it's illogical and absurd! "
You've missed my point by a mile there Matt. I don't recognise "effort" or "work" in relation to WoW because it's purely entertainment. There is no practical outcome from it except for fun. It is purely a leisure activity, when you put extra time into it you are spending more time enjoying yourself than the next guy. Now tell me what part of the real world will give you more for engaging in a purely non-practical leisure activity?
My point was that the player engaging in the difficult content does it because he *enjoys* it, and he doesn't enjoy the easier content. It's not the real world of work or competitive sports, it's not done to earn money or prestige, it's done purely for fun and nothing else. So again, why should one form of enjoying yourself be "rewarded" over and above other forms? Why should there be any incentive for doing something impractical other than the enjoyment of doing it?
Everyone who pays the sub should have a path to enjoy themselves, whether it's by challenging themselves or just coasting along. Neither should be "rewarded" over the other because they're both done for the sole reason of personal enjoyment. If you wouldn't stand for an R/C enthusiast pushing in front of you at the electronics store because he spent the weekend doing something complicated while you watched the telly, why on earth would you argue for the same thing in a game?