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11-17-2011 @ 9:05AM
I've never quite understood the idea behind "entitlement" in an MMO. I mean, you play the game for fun, correct? So how has "I spent 10 hours doing something I find enjoyable for that lewt, but you want it for spending 2 hours doing something enjoyable, you're an entitled casual" ever survived as an argument?It's as though the game is viewed as work, and those who don't work don't deserve anything. In a non-competitive form of entertainment it's a baffling philosophy, as long as challenging and difficult versions of the content are provided for people who enjoy them, why does it matter if anyone else can pick up the same gear for doing something easier? You're doing something you enjoy, they're doing something they enjoy, and everyone likes picking up sparkly loot. The very concept that they'd be entitled because they personally enjoy less difficult content than another person is bizarre.
11-17-2011 @ 10:03AM
I enjoy my job. I get to be creative and artistic. It would bother me if someone came in and did the same job at a vastly lower level, and got the same compensation as me."But that's work, not a game." Effort is effort, whether you segregate it into compartments or not is your decision.
11-17-2011 @ 10:10AM
it's a really good point to consider that different people have different ideas of what qualifies as fun. I've been playing substantially less lately (gogo NaNoWriMo!) because the guild I'm in is a) STILL not at max guild level because b) the only people in the guild are casual raiders who c) only log into the game for one four-hour raiding session once a week. I never see any dungeon challenges getting completed. I can't complete any because there's never more than one other person on whenever I log on. I know that my guildmates are having fun because of what they accomplish in their one raiding session a week. But I don't feel like I'm having fun because I'm not helping my guild progress in the ways I want to progress. If I had the motivator of "hey, i'm rolling with guildies in 5-mans" then that would be a greater reason for me to log in than "hey, I'm rolling with smack-talking pugs to get my VP." I have fun rolling with my friends, and all of my friends have moved on to other games. Or they play on the Horde. *shrug*
11-17-2011 @ 10:21AM
Gotta agree with Matt on this one...whether it's a game or work, reward should be proportionate to effort. for one thing, the game IS competitive to a lot of people. but it doesn't logically follow that a player's mindset should set the standards of who gets what. if that was the case, gear itself would become meaningless, as it is well on its way to becoming. "oh, you just picked up tarecgosa's rest after months of grinding? neat! maybe i'll knock it out from start to finish this weekend. turning into a dragon would is SO COOL, amirite?! LOL!"for example, I see plenty of people playing pickup football games at the park on the weekends...but noone is offering them multi million dollar contracts just because they decide to play. By your line of reasoning, they are just playing to have fun and should be entitled to the same reward as a professional football player who puts in way more blood, sweat, and tears to ultimately do the same thing - play a fun football game. both people find it to be a fun game, but you won't find anyone argue that the weekend pickup gamers deserve just as much money as the professionals. it's that kind of backwards logic that exemplifies the entitled mindset of players today, and it's a damned shame.
11-17-2011 @ 10:51AM
@MrCrow: Sounds like you need a new guild that can provide what you're looking for.@Matt: Thanks. You're spot-on with me on this one.
11-17-2011 @ 10:58AM
@Matt: I don't think the football analogy really works though, because of this reason: Are pro footballers playing because the game is fun or because they're getting paid multimillion-dollar contracts?The problem is that gear is being looked at as the reward here. The gear isn't really the reward! The fun you have while playing through the content is supposed to be the rewarding element of the game. So by that logic, if you're having fun, and having greater gear would enable you to have more fun, people should have avenues to get gear so that they can have MORE FUN. To use Krotzer's writing analogy: "I spent ten hours creating something and was compensated with X. Another person spent two hours creating something and was also compensated with X." Was the time spent creating something rewarding because you got paid, or because you enjoyed the process of creating something? All the compensation enables you to do is just do things that are necessary, like keep the power on, buy food. Those aren't fun activities, but they're necessary, so we need money to do it. But money it itself isn't really a fun thing. CREATING SOMETHING is a fun thing, and you got to do it for ten hours when the other fool only got two hours.
11-17-2011 @ 11:09AM
Football is a competitive sport, unless you're in a sponsored top level guild WoW PvE is not. The comparison doesn't hold up. WoW is not a sport, it's not a job, it's a form of entertainment.Sports are competitive, you work hard to best the next guy and you fight him for the rewards. Work is also competitive, you work hard to get the job and keep the job from someone who threatens to work harder/better. WoW is neither of these things, if Casual A gets the Helm of Phat Loot, then that doesn't have any bearing on Raider B's ability to get the same. However there are a limited number of job positions and NFL contracts, so it's a totally different situation.As far as I can see it's like this, say you have three levels of content, Hard, Normal and Easy. Player A likes the challenge from Hard and finds the other two boring. Player B finds Hard frustrating and Easy boring, he chooses normal. Player C finds both Hard and Normal to be frustrating and finds Easy fun. Why should A, B or C get any special rewards for doing what they enjoy? A likes the challenge, B likes the balance, C likes the calm, all three pay the same, all three are doing just what they enjoy, so why have any difference in reward? Because A "works"? No, he doesn't, he's just playing the way he enjoys the same as the other two.
11-17-2011 @ 11:44AM
@MattKrotzerI would have to disagree with your job or football analogy here. I think a better analogy would be to imagine two neighbors. One neighbor goes out and mows their lawn makes their house looks nice. The other neighbor sees this and also wants a nice lawn. Now your argument would be that to have a nice lawn this second neighbor should go out and 'earn' a nice lawn by doing the work to get it. And you would be right. The second neighbor should take the time and effort of getting a nice lawn if they want a nice lawn, just as if they want a nice mount they should go out and do the work to get it.But lawns (and jobs) and raids are not the same. Imagine if getting a nice lawn required a team of other people who specialize in different jobs and worked in perfect unison. Oh! And this team gets to dictate when the lawn is mowed and you have to be there for it so your choice of mowing teams is limited. And they are only taking you because no one else wants to pull up the weeds. Yes you want to ride the tractor, but too bad, your job is weeding. So even if everything else is working for you, you are doing a job you dislike with the team. And a few of the team members like to mow lawns drunk. Good luck with the lawn, who knows you could get one that looks like your neighbor but it is not likely.Tis is a more realistic analogy.Getting rewards in raiding is not solo work. It is a team game and you only get the rewards your team gets.
11-17-2011 @ 11:59AM
vai - your sports comparison is easily transcribed to WoW. in sports, you are a member of a team...working towards the common goal of succeeding against the competition. players compete with themselves, each other, and the opposition for various goals, substantive or not. in WoW, the mindset is exactly the same: players work together towards a common goal of succeeding against a PvE or PvP objective. they compete against themselves to beat their DPS PR, against each other to roll for a single piece of loot, and against the opposition to win the right to roll on that loot, get more points to buy better PvE/PvP loot, etc. and all the while it's for the sake of entertainment, exactly like sports! and like any other thing in life...ever...the expectation is that the more effort you put in to achieving something, the more compensated you should be...and rightly so! your hard/normal/easy comparison is a little of the mark...heroic modes are heroic because the boss hits harder, has more HP, and the fights are much more complex than normal, requiring player X to pay more attention, possess better skill, and a higher degree of class and fight mechanics comprehension in order to succeed. more is expected of the player, and when the player delivers, they get their reward. simple as that. because player Z doesn't feel like devoting the time, attention, and skill necessary to overcome the greater challenge they cannot claim a right to the better reward! it's illogical and absurd! i've never raided heroic and most likely never will. in fact, im currently unsubscribed because of RL matters and the fact that i've hit a wall in regards to my rewards being proportional to the effort im willing and able to spend to get them. and you know what? i'm ok with that, because like every other rational adult, i understand that them's the breaks...and to claim a right to something you haven't earned is illogical and unfair to those that have worked hard to get what they got. and at the risk of sounding hyperbolic, it can even be considered almost criminal, depending on the real world context! (theft, anyone?)players pay for the right to play the game at all, not for the right to get the best stuff for free. if they want something, they should put in the time and effort to do it...if not, too bad so sad. be content with the things you can get, and if you're not then you are free to do something else that gives you a reward proportional to the effort you're prepared to give.
11-17-2011 @ 2:36PM
"and when the player delivers, they get their reward. simple as that. because player Z doesn't feel like devoting the time, attention, and skill necessary to overcome the greater challenge they cannot claim a right to the better reward! it's illogical and absurd! "You've missed my point by a mile there Matt. I don't recognise "effort" or "work" in relation to WoW because it's purely entertainment. There is no practical outcome from it except for fun. It is purely a leisure activity, when you put extra time into it you are spending more time enjoying yourself than the next guy. Now tell me what part of the real world will give you more for engaging in a purely non-practical leisure activity?My point was that the player engaging in the difficult content does it because he *enjoys* it, and he doesn't enjoy the easier content. It's not the real world of work or competitive sports, it's not done to earn money or prestige, it's done purely for fun and nothing else. So again, why should one form of enjoying yourself be "rewarded" over and above other forms? Why should there be any incentive for doing something impractical other than the enjoyment of doing it?Everyone who pays the sub should have a path to enjoy themselves, whether it's by challenging themselves or just coasting along. Neither should be "rewarded" over the other because they're both done for the sole reason of personal enjoyment. If you wouldn't stand for an R/C enthusiast pushing in front of you at the electronics store because he spent the weekend doing something complicated while you watched the telly, why on earth would you argue for the same thing in a game?
11-17-2011 @ 2:46PM
@Mr Crow:It's easy to make a contrary argument when you change the terms of the deal. The gear IS the reward and the incentive for the work. If you say that the fun is the reward, then we can get rid of all gear upgrades, and nobody needs any gear ever. It's a silly argument.
11-17-2011 @ 4:00PM
@ vai - i must have missed your point, indeed...i would never for a moment imagine that someone would ever consider an activity effortless, even if it is leisurely. all leisure takes effort, bud. http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/efforti direct your attention to definitions 2. and 5. unless you derive great pleasure from sitting in SW doing absolutely nothing at all, ALL THE TIME, then whenever you strike out into the world, for questing, dailies, what have you...it's effort. if you try your hand at something...ever...it's effort. pressing all those keys and letting your brain meats process and react to what's going on on your screen? effort. plain and simple. why do we do that in the game? because it rewards us with loot, titles, silver/gold, achievements, and all kinds of other crap that makes you going out there and investing your time in WoW worth it. where does your "fun" come from? accomplishment. how is accomplishment measured in the game? see above. whether or not you deign to "recognize" effort doesn't mean it doesn't exist in regards to playing the game. your argument fails.moreover, a lot of people DO play to earn prestige in the game, whether it's within their small group of friends, their guild, or the interwebz at large. especially those that play heroic and hard content! they love to brag about it! why do you think people post youtube videos of them doing crazy stuff, or their latest heroic kill? why do you think they hang out with their epeens out in front of the bank steps and AFK while sitting on a flaming dragonhawk thingy? it isn't for their health, that's for sure. "Neither should be "rewarded" over the other because they're both done for the sole reason of personal enjoyment."finally, the reasons WHY they engage in the activity are moot! it's the HOW they engage in that activity that determines the proper rewards! that's the point of this whole to-do! people are entitled because they want more for doing less, not because they like to relax and enjoy themselves! you're mixing up your points here, but no matter how you cut it, matt's right on - it's a silly argument! you can't claim you're entitled to stuff you didn't put in the work to get. that's life....now go to home depot, buy some tools and mats, build a bridge, and get over it.
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