Patch 4.3 PTR: Valor and conquest point changes
by Mathew McCurley 
Nov 17th 2011 at 5:00PM
On the PvP side of the equation, the number of conquest points received for the first daily Battleground is increasing to 100 up from 25, allowing players to work toward their conquest point caps quicker while not feeling like they have to run Rated Battlegrounds or Arenas. Both Rated Battlegrounds and Arenas will still earn players points more quickly, but this change should allow those players who prefer regular Battlegrounds to not be left in the dust.
I cannot help but wonder, other than what has already been explained, what the motivation is behind further changing the raid game to make 10- and 25-man raiding so similar. While I have raided in both size groups and enjoy both types of environment, a 25-man raiding guild at this time is at a severe disadvantage when it comes to encounter difficulty. We just reported yesterday that over 1,000 guilds have killed heroic Ragnaros, with a majority of those kills on the 10-man size. It is readily becoming apparent that the only reason to raid with a 25-man group is that of personal choice as opposed to mechanical differences. What confuses me is the insistence on the 25-man raid size for the Raid Finder, when 25-mans are further being de-emphasized.
Badges and valor points originally were the consolation prize for not being lucky with your drops in dungeons. Back in The Burning Crusade, you augmented your gear with badge gear because something that you needed just wouldn't drop. Now, valor point gear is a necessary step in gearing up your character. I understand the reasons for slowing valor acquisition and agree with those sentiments. However, is it worth lowering the desire to do 25-man raiding even more for those guilds out there that still raid in the 25-man raid size? How many of them are left that really care? I'd love to know why we are still raiding 25-man raid instances.
Patch 4.3 Valor point change
We've made slight adjustments to the Valor Point (VP) drops on the 4.3 PTR which testers can now see. In both 10- and 25-player raids, bosses will now drop 100 VP each (down from 115 and 135 respectively). We'll also be changing Firelands raid bosses to drop 50 VP per kill upon release of the patch.
This change is being made to further emphasize the desire to kill bosses for the items they drop. In the 4.3 raid, tier sets can only be earned from boss drops, and as Raid Finder will allow for just about anyone to get a chance to kill bosses, we think there will be less need for Valor overall. We want to try to match the lower desire for VP with a slightly slower acquisition rate.
We appreciate your thoughts and constructive discussion on how these changes may affect you and your guild once 4.3 is released.
We're also making changes to Conquest, recently announced, found here: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/3595670888
This change is being made to further emphasize the desire to kill bosses for the items they drop. In the 4.3 raid, tier sets can only be earned from boss drops, and as Raid Finder will allow for just about anyone to get a chance to kill bosses, we think there will be less need for Valor overall. We want to try to match the lower desire for VP with a slightly slower acquisition rate.
We appreciate your thoughts and constructive discussion on how these changes may affect you and your guild once 4.3 is released.
We're also making changes to Conquest, recently announced, found here: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/3595670888
Patch 4.3 Valor point change
Quote:
I thought one of the incentives to do 25 man over 10 was to get more points, so cap faster for the week?
Wow, that idea didn't even last the expansion it was put in for, did it?
Our goal remains to make 25s slightly more rewarding to help offset the logistical challenges inherit in 25-player raiding, but we didn't think extra Valor was a strong incentive for those players since they tend to run out of uses for Valor pretty quickly, which will be even more true in 4.3.
I thought one of the incentives to do 25 man over 10 was to get more points, so cap faster for the week?
Wow, that idea didn't even last the expansion it was put in for, did it?
Patch 4.3 Conquest point change
In patch 4.3 we're changing the daily battleground (BG) to reward 100 conquest for a win (up from 25). In addition, every non-rated BG that you win will also give you 50 conquest. There is no limit to how many BGs you can run this way, up to the normal conquest cap.
Our intent is to start acting even more on our Mists of Pandaria philosophies of encouraging players to approach the content they want to, how they want to, and be able to work toward meaningful player progression. Arenas and rated battlegrounds will still earn Conquest faster, but with this change you can now work your way up by running normal BGs, if you so choose.
We're also making changes to VP, recently announced, found here: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/3595371172
Our intent is to start acting even more on our Mists of Pandaria philosophies of encouraging players to approach the content they want to, how they want to, and be able to work toward meaningful player progression. Arenas and rated battlegrounds will still earn Conquest faster, but with this change you can now work your way up by running normal BGs, if you so choose.
We're also making changes to VP, recently announced, found here: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/3595371172
Brace yourselves for what could be some of most exciting updates to the game recently with patch 4.3. Review the official patch notes, and then dig into what's ahead: new item storage options, cross-realm raiding, cosmetic armor skinning and your chance to battle the mighty Deathwing -- from astride his back!
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 4)
Noyou Nov 17th 2011 5:06PM
Excellent. So we only have to put up with the average douche as opposed to the elitist ones :P Good plan.
Agrendar Nov 22nd 2011 11:42AM
not going to lie this made me giggle.
Mr. Crow Nov 17th 2011 5:06PM
Arguably, the incentive for raiding 25s is quicker legendary drop rates.
I know that's not an incentive that'll work every tier, but it's certainly a motivator in T12 and will likely by so in T13 if the Rogue legendary process is similar.
Scard Nov 17th 2011 7:05PM
As mentioned by one of your fellow WoW Insider columnists, the clear reason why the Raid Finder is 25-man is one of pure demographics. 2 tanks, 7 heals and 16 dps would be a lot faster to put together than 2 tanks 2 heals and 6 dps. If the Raid Finder were 10-mans, we would be seeing the same issue as we currently see with the Dungeon Finder, that of long queues for dps roles.
ericknowles6175 Nov 18th 2011 7:18PM
If your not a class thatgets a legendary, and raids 25"s what is oh well no luck for u. They logistically give u nothing
Mr. Crow Nov 17th 2011 5:10PM
The reason the Raid Finder is pointed at 25s is because the personal responsibility of each individual player in a 25-man raid is lower than in 10s. Statistically, that means you have a lower chance of failure in 25s with a fail player than with that same fail player in 10s.
Since the arguable goal of LFR is to help PUG raids succeed, using a 25s size helps to increase the chances of success by minimizing the effect of one or two inattentive or ineffectual players.
Ilmyrn Nov 17th 2011 5:14PM
It also means that there are fewer tanks (traditionally the rarest role) required for the same number of Raid Finder groups.
dodgeballer2005 Nov 17th 2011 7:52PM
If one fail player dies in a 10-man, that's a tenth of your raid gone!
Zanathos Nov 17th 2011 11:30PM
It may be harder for players to get 25 players together, but not the matchmaking system. The LFG raid will be it's own difficulty level also, easier than normal 10 or 25s. There's no reason for them not to go ahead and make it 25s only. 10s aren't inherently easier, they're popular because they're easier for humans to organize.
Angus Nov 18th 2011 8:42AM
It also means less chance of not having something they more or less expect you to have.
Buffs and battle rezzes not being available hurt 10 mans.
Hih Nov 22nd 2011 6:01AM
It's not the personal responsibility thing. It's because having a raid be 2 tanks, 6 healers, 17 dps is MUCH easier on the queue times for EVERYONE than 2 tanks, 2(3) healers, 6(5) dps.
There are WAAAAAAAAAY more dps than there are tanks, and slightly more healers than tanks. Healers will probably be the "limiting reagent" for the LFR, but everyone should still have very fast queues because the ratios are much more aligned to real ratios than LFDs 1:1:3
devilsei Nov 17th 2011 5:10PM
If I had to guess anything at all... *slips on tinfoil hat*
They may be wanting to de-emphasize 25-man Raiding as anything BUT a training thing. More people means more of the work is spread around DPS and healers (and occasional tanks I guess). 10-man raids could become the new 25-man, for the more hardcore experience.
Which also means we may see 25-man raids disappearing altogether in Mists of Pandaria, with them only existing through the raid-finder.
Pyromelter Nov 17th 2011 7:49PM
I have to agree - and I'm pretty pleased about this. I also agree with the person who talked about the legendary thing. Honestly I would be pleased if they made the drop rates the same in 10 and 25.
Some people might bemoan the death of 25 man raiding. I, however, rejoice the coming of 10mans as being the standard-bearer for raiding. Straight out, 10mans are just way more fun, and you get a much better connection and kinship with your fellow raiders.
And for people who feel that a 10man party isn't epic enough for a raid, I say shame on you, as the story that is the basis for virtually all fantasy stories, gaming, and roleplaying had an initial party of 9.
" I'd love to know why we are still raiding 25-man raid instances."
The only real reason I can think of is that because to the competitive raid guilds, 25man is the varsity game, and 10mans are the JV. Once we see Paragon, Ensidia, vodka, and others go to 10mans, then we'll know that 10mans are for real the top dogs in PVE raiding.
svalxeno Nov 18th 2011 12:46AM
I disagree Pyromelter, I think 25 mans are way more fun than 10s! 25 man raiding feels like a large army invading and conquering an evil stronghold. This armyorganised into smaller teams, combined altogether with a fun and festive atmosphere. 10 man raiding feels kind of empty.. to me.
I think its a matter of taste really :3
feedback Nov 18th 2011 9:40AM
I still think 15 man raids are optimal. Do away with 25 and 10, and just do 15. That would reduce development expenses and allow Blizzard to focus more resources on making the content great instead of tuned to various demographics, reduce the tank to other roles ratio compared to 10 man (making it easier to create raid groups), feel more epic than 10 but logistically more manageable than 25 man, allow for a greater spread of buffs, etc.
jfofla Nov 17th 2011 5:11PM
25 Man is Real Raiding.
10 Man is wannabe
djsuursoo Nov 17th 2011 5:16PM
by your logic 40-man raiding is where it's at.
why you still playing kids-league raiding bro?
Mperiolat Nov 17th 2011 5:12PM
*drops his head on the table*
Blizz does not understand the stratification issues yet, do they?
If we're forced to get gear off random loot drops, especially with other players, it gets tons harder. And if you are not at EXACTLY the right level with EXACTLY the right gear, you won't even get invited along to get the chance.
Oy vey...
Mr. Crow Nov 17th 2011 5:25PM
The design encourages players to use the Raid Finder to get drops. You also get a sizable chunk of VP for using the Raid Finder (250 for each half of Dragon Soul, with a max of 500 per week), so it encourages players to get in there and come away with VP even if they don't get gear.
Additionally, 5-mans will offer 150VP apiece for clearing them, the troll dungeons are being reduced to only requiring 3 boss kills total, and the ICC heroics promise to be faster than the current crop. So running 5-mans (and less of them too) is STILL a viable method of getting VP.
And since you can buy gear for ALL SLOTS using VP in 4.3, the only unique thing you're getting off the raid bosses is Tier Pieces, and thus Set Bonuses, which are always intended to be cool bonuses and not mission-critical elements that are needed to clear the instance.
What this change does is emphasize "killing the raid boss for loot" instead of "killing the raid boss for his VPs." It doesn't remove VP from the raid equation, but instead makes the potentiality of a loot drop more appealing. And if you don't get the item in your regular raid, your guild can queue up in LFR, blast through the lower-difficulty version of the boss-fight, and you have a second shot at a lower iLvl version of the same piece of gear, which will still be an improvement over Normal Firelands gear.
Snuzzle Nov 17th 2011 5:27PM
You mean so far above the level that you couldn't possibly need the drops, but other than that I agree.
The point is, valor is going back to its originally intended purpose: to supplement boss drops. I for one am glad, and I only raid casually. It's such a shame seeing so many boss drops getting sharded or going to offsets automatically because "I'm waiting for tier" which you can only get from a vendor. Almost no one cares about boss loot anymore, unless it's weapons or possibly trinkets.