Ready Check: Cleaning up issues with Raid Finder

Last week, we talked about a few of the issues that are currently speculated for Blizzard's new Raid Finder tool that is being released within the next patch. Specifically, that discussion was about raid size and raid leadership; however, these are not the only concerns that people have. The Raid Finder is a rather charged topic within the community, for a wide variety of reasons, all depending on whom you ask.
This week, we will be wrapping up the discussion as best can be done as I attempt to address the remaining issues that people have put forward. Before we begin, let me say that, until this all goes live, we cannot accurately judge the success or failure of the tool. The Dungeon Finder, similarly, had a significant amount of backlash and down talk before it was released, yet most people now wouldn't play without it -- just to put everything in perspective.
Voice communication
First and foremost, there is the matter of communication that many players would have. A part of raiding is the use of some form of VoIP (voice over internet protocol) program such as Vent or Mumble. This is rather standard, yet many people still don't realize that Blizzard really does have a built-in voice chat system. To be fair, this isn't their fault at all; I often forget that it's even there, and I believe that I have used it all of one time since it was released. A majority of people are simply not used to this tool. Again, though, not entirely their fault. The problem is, I believe, limited only to groups, and while all those random dungeons that you run are technically able to use Blizzard's voice chat, none of them really do.
A majority of the problem lies with Blizzard's voice chat not being very good. It simply doesn't hold a candle to the likes of Vent or Mumble by any standard at all, which is fine, because it isn't Vent nor Mumble. It is entirely different. As bad as the utility might actually be, it does do its job rather well -- it allows for great, quick communication between players. I wouldn't use it for long explanations of a boss encounter or to be a chatty Cathy with a group of guild members, but for heat-of-the-moment communications, it does perfectly fine.
I feel that two things will likely come out of this. First, more players will start actively using Blizzard's voice chat, at least while they are in Raid Finder groups (though it may actually spill over into Dungeon Finder groups as well -- you never know). Second, Blizzard might actually spend the time to improve the system to the higher standard that players expect in their voice communications. Again, making use of this tool for the purpose of quick commands during an encounter is perfectly viable; you can do it and expect that people will make use of it in this manner. Yes, yes, I know, you don't want to hear the heavy breathing of some fail mage or the whiny screeches of some 10-year-old kid, but that's part of playing a social game in a social environment.
Trolls, ninjas, and you! Oh, my!
People are the internet aren't perfect angels -- hell, people in real life aren't all that great half of the time. There are a lot of jackasses out there, and you're bound to run across some (probably several) sooner or later. Unfortunately, there is simply nothing that you can really do to prevent this. Any social environment, especially one that is entirely online where traditional social backlash doesn't exist, is going to come with its trolls. Even here, we have to deal with trolls from time to time. Even My Little Pony Adventures (especially them) have to deal with trolls. Trolls are just a part of the internet. I blame all that violent TV and video games.
The solution here is rather simple: You kick them. While there are currently some issues with the kicking system as I understand it, minor technical corrections aren't really a reason to rank an entire system as a failure. Right now, it is merely a matter of the Raid Finder sharing the same kicking rules as the Dungeon Finder, but the intricacies don't translate. All that needs to be done is to create a new rule set of kicking players from groups for the Raid Finder; it's not that complicated. There isn't anything that you can do to prevent the trolling, but you can stop it once it starts.

The system of granting a need roll bonus to main-spec players for their specific items is a perfectly fine system. The need/greed roll system inherently prevents ninjas when used properly, and this additional alteration prevents players from taking off-spec items over main-spec roles. Yes, the expectation will probably be that everyone who can will roll need; I have no doubts about that, and I don't think that anyone else does either. That doesn't make the person winning said item a ninja.
People may also surprise you. I've done a large number of free-roll raids in my time. Players can often be rather considerate, even in a 25-man PUG, and I fail to see how the Raid Finder is all that different from spamming trade for strangers to play with.
A racketeering gig
The other loot issue is one of group collusion. We've heard so many reports of players saying that they're just going to run with a group where everyone is going to roll need on specific items whether they need it or not in order to give the item to a certain guild member or friend. To this I say, so what? Unfair to an individual person, perhaps -- but honestly, break down how far-reaching this would be.
Not all that many items are honestly shared by a large number of players; the exceptions might be cloth and DPS plate. Even then, how many players are you really going to put against for said item? The Raid Finder tool takes group composition into consideration. If a group of friends who are all cloth wearers join together, it's going to do it's best to avoid putting them in a raid full of other cloth wearers. That's how the system works. Even on the PTR, I've never really seen more than five or six cloth-wearing classes in a single raid; usually there are around two but no more than three of each.
Further, this issue isn't as wide spread as it may seem. "Real" raiding guilds -- those that will actually raid normal content -- won't be spending much of their time in the Raid Finder. There's generally no point in doing so. Even if they do, it would only be to fill out one, maybe two, items that they aren't seeing drop from their raids. Like many things, I would expect this to happen more frequently in the first few weeks or so, especially this time around, but after that it will virtually vanish.
Ready Check shares all the strategies and inside information you need to take your raiding to the next level. Be sure to look up our strategy guides to Cataclysm's 5-man instances, and for more healer-centric advice, visit Raid Rx.
Filed under: Raiding, Ready Check (Raiding)






Reader Comments (Page 1 of 2)
Rajah Nov 18th 2011 6:20PM
Since when has WoW voice chat been usable in dungeon finder groups? I used to use it all the time while questing with a friend. As soon as we'd get into a DF group, voice chat would cease working; you could not even talk with group members on the same realm. Mind you, it's been ages since I used voice chat, having transitioned to using Vent with a guild. If this limitation of voice chat is now gone, it's news to me.
Wellsee Nov 18th 2011 7:01PM
This is what my experience with using the in-game chat for a year yielded. If you got into a group and it was working, great! It would likely continue working and be just fine. But if the group changed, or if someone logged out for a moment or DC'd, it seemed up to chance whether it would continue working. And once it stopped, good luck getting it to work again.
Puntable Nov 19th 2011 12:48AM
I also was under the impression that it did not work across servers.
Talarian Nov 19th 2011 2:35AM
True story. I used the integrated voice chat for quite a while when I was questing with a friend of mine, but as soon as we joined a party via the Dungeon Finder tool, the chat dropped entirely; we couldn't even talk to just each other anymore. I do not believe that it works at all, cross-server, and it may have limitations within a server if you use the Dungeon Finder tool to port your group to the dungeon (regardless of whether you've formed the 5-man group entirely yourself).
This is all a bit disappointing. For an MMO with as large a user-based as WoW has, one would think that Blizzard would have a functional, if not also more robust, built-in chat voice chat system.
Tyler Caraway Nov 19th 2011 11:33AM
I honestly do not use it. The only time that I have ever used it was a few times by accident and I was in a Dungeon Finder group, but this was all the way back in Wrath on a low level alt running BFD. It was amusing for a while to listen to these other people prattle on, but I power level, and do it to music, so I quickly shut it off after that; not even sure how it got turned on to begin with.
If it doesn't work there, then I'm not sure the point of it even existing, although I'd honestly say I don't much think Blizzard see the point in having it either. Perhaps, though, the advent of LFR will push them to actually create decent voice communication functionality built into WoW.
ayanamilily Nov 18th 2011 6:32PM
I think the biggest hurdle to the raid finder will be the same as the dungeon finder -- a complete lack of confidence in up to 24 complete strangers every time you join a group. At least when you join a pug on your own server you have a vague idea of how successful it may be based on guild reputations.
araquen Nov 18th 2011 6:36PM
My raid officers and I have weighed the options, and at this time we have no desire to use the raid finder. My raiders aren't thrilled when we have to pug a couple of spots (so we have kind of a select "go to" list of "proven" players - proven being defined by the level of maturity and friendliness), they are not going to want to deal with 15+ Trade Chat Elites.
There was interest in the LFR until the team found out it was 25-man only. I *could* have worked with that, but all the additional issues are piling up.
So, no. As a guild group we're not using this. If our raiders, individually, want to inflict themselves with the LFR, we are certainly not going to stop them, but I will not drag 8-10 of my hard-working raiders into this mess.
Hih Nov 18th 2011 7:00PM
They could have made it 10 man. Imagine the wait for that. Having it be set to 25 makes the tank:healer:dps ratio MUCH more even to how things are in game leading to fast queues for EVERYONE.
lanceg Nov 19th 2011 8:58AM
This is exactly what I hear from everyone I've talked to about the raid finder. (while chatting on Vent! Oh, the irony)
While it's roughly a 50/50 chance of getting a good group/useless collection of idiots in the dungeon finder, I also expect that raid finder will fail not for lack of technology, but the immature attitudes of the community.
In theory the RF tool sounds great. I sure hope blizz doesn't overspend capitol on this system, for I believe its' doomed to fail.
Imagine an a______ of a tank overpulling and exiting the raid, like some do in dungeons. (man, I wish blizz would give peeps who do that a 24 hour deserter debuff) What kind of backlash will result from this? Sure, there will be other tanks there, you *might* live thru it, but there will be many who don't and they will have huge repair bills. If a healer bails out mid fight it's just about a certain wipe. Even a DPS could aggro a ton of trash and exit the raid leaving those behind to deal with the mess.
I am calling the raid finder tool the raid griefing tool. I am betting you all will too, in time.
Jon Nov 18th 2011 7:16PM
I don't think the queue time is what the commotion is about. The problem is dealing with "randoms" who don't have a clue what to do.
Cragdog Nov 19th 2011 10:26AM
One suggestion to fix this noob situtation is to have someway for people to LEARN what to do somehow ingame. Otherwise, the only way to learn is in the raid. Otherwise, it's just a "catch 22" situation, which people don't pay to play.
Starlin Nov 18th 2011 7:43PM
I'd like to see the Raid Finder difficulty opened up as just another option for both 10 and 25 (i.e. Easy, Normal, Heroic options).
Haan Nov 18th 2011 7:48PM
A 'cup half full' POV:
1 - many current raiders will enjoy being able to raid more than once per week on their main, and will contribute mightily to these PUG raid groups.
2 - after a few weeks of some frustrating runs many of the 'raiding noobs' will become decent raiders, and these PUGs will be more and more enjoyable and successful. (similar to heroic 5-mans early in 4.0).
3 - Blizz designs the success rate to be very similar to the PvP boss fights - meaning very high.
4 - certain folks on a server will take the lead role and enjoy running a weekly RF instance. More follow.
5 - the new 5-mans being launched at the same time is likely not a coincidence. People will be able to quickly gear up in prep for the raids. While that doesn't mean they won't stand in the fire, it'll make it easier to be successful even with mistakes.
/ducks
Hydrakara Nov 18th 2011 8:11PM
The biggest issue that i've come across is a failing group.
You know that 25-man that just falls apart after one wipe? Well if someone re-queues this group as it disintegrates, it becomes a black hole for people queuing up to do raid.
I've spent about 3 hours with the LFR tool, and i simply could not join a fresh or succeeding group. After literally over 7 re-queues, it continued to put me with a 3/5 group as people continued to leave.
Scard Nov 18th 2011 11:22PM
^^
This, this and more this.
I've spent probably only a total of 4-5 hours on the PTR trying out the LFR. 9 times out of 10, I get dropped into a half-completed instance with the raid group in a constant state of drops and fills. It truly becomes a "black hole" for people queuing hoping for a fresh run, being disappointed as others join, others drop and we get nowhere.
Snuzzle Nov 19th 2011 1:59PM
You have to bear in mind, though, people have less patience on the PTR overall. There becomes a mindset of "This isn't 'real,' it doesn't matter because I can't keep this loot or progress anyway." I see a lot more extremes on the PTR, both in politeness as well as rudeness/impatience.
I don't think a whole lot of groups will become "black holes" like that, no more than on Live anyway.
jfofla Nov 18th 2011 9:46PM
It is Impossible to Ninja in a Need Greed Roll. If the game lets you roll Need, you are perfectly within your rights rolling Need. That is not debatable.
ogkspaz Nov 19th 2011 3:30AM
Player A gearing up and healing ZA with a 346 MH.
Player B firelands geared and DPSing ZA with healer offspec for which he already has a 378 MH.
Both roll Need on Daakara's 353 healing mace, player B wins it.
Rage ensues.
It might be what you regard as 'within your rights' to roll on it, but it is a very inconsiderate and will not earn you much love in LFD.
(I know some people reply to this" I'm not here to make friends")
Moral of the story: Just because the system allows you to be a dick does not make it a good idea.
Disclaimer: "you" is not meant to be you specifically.
The +100 roll being instated is a very welcome change imho. as this will cut out most of problems.
Emophia Nov 19th 2011 11:40AM
That doesn't making ninjaing tho.
Being a douche =/= ninja
rayden54 Nov 19th 2011 3:27AM
I see three major hurdles. One: There are people-like me-who simply do not like 25-man raids. It's just harder for me to tell what's going on with all the extra people and spell effects. I'd gladly wait in a longer queue for a 10-man.
Two: It's a logistical nightmare-no set strategies and no way to continue later. In my one experience with the raid finder, we went through no less than 5 kill orders for Yor'sahj. Every wipe, someone would say that the order we used was wrong. All told, it took over two hours to down that one boss. That was all I could do.
Three: Blizzard is almost certainly going to use the raid finder as an excuse to massively overtune normal mode raids. They're under the mistaken impression that the raid finder fills the "easy mode" slot-yet because of the other two things I mentioned the people who can't or won't use the raid finder are going to end up with even less to do than they do now.