Ready Check: Cleaning up issues with Raid Finder

Last week, we talked about a few of the issues that are currently speculated for Blizzard's new Raid Finder tool that is being released within the next patch. Specifically, that discussion was about raid size and raid leadership; however, these are not the only concerns that people have. The Raid Finder is a rather charged topic within the community, for a wide variety of reasons, all depending on whom you ask.
This week, we will be wrapping up the discussion as best can be done as I attempt to address the remaining issues that people have put forward. Before we begin, let me say that, until this all goes live, we cannot accurately judge the success or failure of the tool. The Dungeon Finder, similarly, had a significant amount of backlash and down talk before it was released, yet most people now wouldn't play without it -- just to put everything in perspective.
Voice communication
First and foremost, there is the matter of communication that many players would have. A part of raiding is the use of some form of VoIP (voice over internet protocol) program such as Vent or Mumble. This is rather standard, yet many people still don't realize that Blizzard really does have a built-in voice chat system. To be fair, this isn't their fault at all; I often forget that it's even there, and I believe that I have used it all of one time since it was released. A majority of people are simply not used to this tool. Again, though, not entirely their fault. The problem is, I believe, limited only to groups, and while all those random dungeons that you run are technically able to use Blizzard's voice chat, none of them really do.
A majority of the problem lies with Blizzard's voice chat not being very good. It simply doesn't hold a candle to the likes of Vent or Mumble by any standard at all, which is fine, because it isn't Vent nor Mumble. It is entirely different. As bad as the utility might actually be, it does do its job rather well -- it allows for great, quick communication between players. I wouldn't use it for long explanations of a boss encounter or to be a chatty Cathy with a group of guild members, but for heat-of-the-moment communications, it does perfectly fine.
I feel that two things will likely come out of this. First, more players will start actively using Blizzard's voice chat, at least while they are in Raid Finder groups (though it may actually spill over into Dungeon Finder groups as well -- you never know). Second, Blizzard might actually spend the time to improve the system to the higher standard that players expect in their voice communications. Again, making use of this tool for the purpose of quick commands during an encounter is perfectly viable; you can do it and expect that people will make use of it in this manner. Yes, yes, I know, you don't want to hear the heavy breathing of some fail mage or the whiny screeches of some 10-year-old kid, but that's part of playing a social game in a social environment.
Trolls, ninjas, and you! Oh, my!
People are the internet aren't perfect angels -- hell, people in real life aren't all that great half of the time. There are a lot of jackasses out there, and you're bound to run across some (probably several) sooner or later. Unfortunately, there is simply nothing that you can really do to prevent this. Any social environment, especially one that is entirely online where traditional social backlash doesn't exist, is going to come with its trolls. Even here, we have to deal with trolls from time to time. Even My Little Pony Adventures (especially them) have to deal with trolls. Trolls are just a part of the internet. I blame all that violent TV and video games.
The solution here is rather simple: You kick them. While there are currently some issues with the kicking system as I understand it, minor technical corrections aren't really a reason to rank an entire system as a failure. Right now, it is merely a matter of the Raid Finder sharing the same kicking rules as the Dungeon Finder, but the intricacies don't translate. All that needs to be done is to create a new rule set of kicking players from groups for the Raid Finder; it's not that complicated. There isn't anything that you can do to prevent the trolling, but you can stop it once it starts.

The system of granting a need roll bonus to main-spec players for their specific items is a perfectly fine system. The need/greed roll system inherently prevents ninjas when used properly, and this additional alteration prevents players from taking off-spec items over main-spec roles. Yes, the expectation will probably be that everyone who can will roll need; I have no doubts about that, and I don't think that anyone else does either. That doesn't make the person winning said item a ninja.
People may also surprise you. I've done a large number of free-roll raids in my time. Players can often be rather considerate, even in a 25-man PUG, and I fail to see how the Raid Finder is all that different from spamming trade for strangers to play with.
A racketeering gig
The other loot issue is one of group collusion. We've heard so many reports of players saying that they're just going to run with a group where everyone is going to roll need on specific items whether they need it or not in order to give the item to a certain guild member or friend. To this I say, so what? Unfair to an individual person, perhaps -- but honestly, break down how far-reaching this would be.
Not all that many items are honestly shared by a large number of players; the exceptions might be cloth and DPS plate. Even then, how many players are you really going to put against for said item? The Raid Finder tool takes group composition into consideration. If a group of friends who are all cloth wearers join together, it's going to do it's best to avoid putting them in a raid full of other cloth wearers. That's how the system works. Even on the PTR, I've never really seen more than five or six cloth-wearing classes in a single raid; usually there are around two but no more than three of each.
Further, this issue isn't as wide spread as it may seem. "Real" raiding guilds -- those that will actually raid normal content -- won't be spending much of their time in the Raid Finder. There's generally no point in doing so. Even if they do, it would only be to fill out one, maybe two, items that they aren't seeing drop from their raids. Like many things, I would expect this to happen more frequently in the first few weeks or so, especially this time around, but after that it will virtually vanish.
Ready Check shares all the strategies and inside information you need to take your raiding to the next level. Be sure to look up our strategy guides to Cataclysm's 5-man instances, and for more healer-centric advice, visit Raid Rx.
Filed under: Raiding, Ready Check (Raiding)
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Reader Comments (Page 2 of 2)
Blessthemartyrguild Nov 19th 2011 5:09AM
Except the normal modes are not overtimes they are exactly what you should expect any guild that is 7/7 firelands now will be 8/8 in the same time span. I have done normal, lfr, and heroic modes on the ptr and everything seems tuned very nicely.
Tyler Caraway Nov 19th 2011 11:58AM
1) It is nice that you would like to wait long, there are, however, several million people playing this game. Forcing longer wait times on everyone just isn't a good move. Further, it isn't all about the wait times. 10 man raid groups are much, much more sensitive to the lack of certain measures of utility than 25 man groups are, and they are more likely to not have said utility. Think of things like having a knock back on Beth'tilac or Ragnaros. Plus, healing in 10's a bit more flexible in terms of numbers. Some encounters are balanced more around 2 healers, others 3.
2) You're using a PTR -- a test run -- experience to justify the lack of knowledge within the player base? While I'm not saying that within the day of release, everyone in WoW is going to have the perfect strategy for every Dragon Soul boss, information does eventually disseminate through the community at large.
3) That asserts normal modes are currently over-tuned. I know that it isn't the most popular stance to take within this specific community, but normal mode raids are perfectly fine in terms of balance, if anything I consider them to be far too simple and easy. I do understand that not everyone is as good at WoW as I am, that not everyone has the same group of guild members that I do, but this has the same assertion that I've only raided at my current level.
Yes, I am a high end, top of the line, raider, but I've made many friends within the game, played via alts in many guilds, and done more raiding overall than a lot of players. I've played with the "normals" the "average" and even the "low" skill base, I've raided with guilds that struggled tooth and nail through Naxx 80. Normal modes are perfectly fine in terms of balance. The expectation is that your average guild should take just as long to clear Normal mode as a high end guild does to clear Heroic mode. Seems fairly accurate to me. A majority of heroic guilds haven't killed Rag yet, a majority of normal guilds haven't killed Rag yet. Why should either present a different challenge?
4) You didn't directly have a 4, but it is one that you alluded to. LFR encounters are meant to be easy, they are meant to be PuGable, but they are still meant to be raid boss encounters. This expectation that people seem to have that LFR -- or any raid -- should present absolutely no more challenge than a 5-man instance and require the exact same amount of time investment in order to clear is, frankly, ridiculous.
People that want to raid should be able to raid, and there should be steps to take, but those steps do not have to be easy. Many people complain that 5-man content doesn't adequately prepare them for the raiding scene, but nerfing raids down to 5-man level does not solve that problem. If more people want to raid, then this is the perfect opportunity for them to learn, but that doesn't mean the lessons are going to be easy.
Blessthemartyrguild Nov 19th 2011 5:03AM
There is good and bad to all, last night myself and 4you guildies got into one if these "black hole" groups they had been wiping on the spine for hours, after three pulls and wipes we convinced the leader to pass lead to myself(raid leader of top 200ish 25 man guild) one shot the spine. Using raid warnings I made the fight simple for everyone we turned around and wiped at 3% on madness on the first pull and had a kill with lust still available and all 25 alive when it bugged and wouldn't reset(love the ptr). In all honesty all each group needs is a good leader and they will burn through the content(fwiw I was top 10 dps each pull of both while tabling in a full progression tanking set, so the tuning is right in line with what's needed).
Gniver Nov 19th 2011 8:14AM
"Yes, yes, I know, you don't want to hear the heavy breathing of some fail mage or the whiny screeches of some 10-year-old kid, but that's part of playing a social game in a social environment."
Really? What is the upside?
Tyler Caraway Nov 19th 2011 11:36AM
The majority of the game's demographic doesn't actually fit into this category. :P
I've been running PuG groups across multiple servers for many, many years, all of which I invited on to my person vent for the duration of. In that time, I've had to ban maybe two or three people, and mute just about as many. Not everyone has been perfect, and there's been plenty that annoy me, but most people annoy me in general. If a jack-ass like me can handle running PuGs, I think more well-adjusted people should be peachy.
Gniver Nov 19th 2011 3:06PM
You seemed to be saying that in order to play a social game you had to accept that the quality of the social interaction sucked.
That you now tell me that, thanks to your control of vent and pug groups, have a nice control of your social environment in WoW means little in regards to LFR. Outside of LFR very few players have that position, and some of them abuse it. Inside LFR, you have to build your position each time from scratch.
But good for you that you are satisfied with your status.
rayden54 Nov 19th 2011 2:51PM
@ Tyler Caraway
I never suggested forcing longer queues on anyone. If you aren't willing to wait for the 10-man queue, you don't have to queue for them. Blizzard, on the other hand, is forcing us into 25-mans. The truth is, I doubt you'd end up saving any time anyway just because you've got more people to randomly go afk or disconnect.
2) No, I'm using my experience with PuG raids as justification. Every guild has their own way of doing things, and to them, that is the "right" way. The guild I did Magmaw with had everyone except the tank stack in melee range while he tanked the worms. Other guilds had the range AoEing them down. Both strategies work. The problem isn't that no one knows the strategy, but that everyone knows a different strategy. You could argue that it's up to the raid leader, but in my Yor'sahj fight, we went through as many raid leaders as we did strategies.
3) Wrath made the game accessible. Cataclysm left the Wrath-babies like me with $97 invested (not counting subscriptions), and nothing to do. Regardless, my point was not that the game is too hard now, but that the raid finder gives them license to make new raids HARDER because they see LFR as the easy setting. In other words, if they weren't overtuned now, they will be.
4) I alluded to 4 in my OP when I said there is "no way to continue later," but I didn't go into details. There is no "progression" in LFR because there's no progress. You either complete the entire raid in one sitting or you don't.
Being saved to a raid-or boss-can lead to logistical problems, but can you imagine trying to progress if every time you entered the raid, you were given a random boss, and NPC's had killed all the ones "before" it? I have no problem with a raid taking an entire tier to progress through, but for LFR, it's just impractical.