Drama Mamas: Loot drama redux
by Robin Torres 
Nov 21st 2011 at 9:00AM
Recipe for smelly loot drama: Have clear rules that are only followed at the whim of the raid leader.
Eww.
Dear Drama Mamas,
I just wanted to get your thoughts about some drama that has recently unfolded in the guild. We have been raiding Firelands for a couple months now but have been having some disagreements about loot. The guild leader and her boyfriend lead the raid and I assist as the main tank, my wife is also in the raid. A couple of weeks ago a ring dropped and the guild leader's boyfriend won the roll. The following week the item dropped again and he rolled and won again. I was confused so I inquired about it, he had given it to his girlfriend.
Now we have a rule if a BoE drops and you need it for main spec you need to equip it to make sure you don't sell it. I explain my concerns and they ended up giving the item to my wife who had the second highest roll.
That week I also got some 378 tanking shoulders, not the best for me but I took them because the other tank had better. This week my shoulder token dropped and I won the roll for them. The guild leaders boyfriend also wanted the token but lost the roll. They complained I already had 378 shoulder but explained I got my four piece set, so it was an upgrade and was the piece I was hoping for (he has 359 shoulders).
Soon afterwards I receive a message in my mailbox that my wife and I are not invited to next weeks raid and that she is re-evaluating the raid team. I have been with the guild from the start and am in an officer position, and she would tell other how good of a tank I am. I am concerned that the next notice I receive will be a /gkick . I would love to get a third party's opinion on this. Was I in the wrong or is she over reacting? I know you are busy but would love a response as I often read the drama mama articles.
Thanks,
Zach
Drama Mama Robin: Loot drama is so gross. When unscrupulous couples lead the raid and adjust the loot rules to their own desires, it's even grosser. ... More gross? Grosstastic? Grosserific!It seems to me that they are upset that you called them on a little behind-the-scenes fudging of the rules, and now they are seeking revenge. I wouldn't worry about receiving a gkick. I'd go find another raiding guild that is run a bit less shadily, and take your tanking skills there (along with your wife). I feel very strongly about this. You should start guild shopping right now.
But if you're still reading, I think that what you did with the shoulders is a bit of a gray area. If you have a close-knit raiding guild that believes in progression over collecting shinies, the fact that your shoulders were superior to The Royal Boyfriend's shoulders should have been taken into account before allowing you to roll on the token. Better gear for all regular raiders means easier progression, after all.
I can see where it might have been better for everyone if you had offered to forego rolling on the token since you just upgraded the week before. I can also see where Her Royal Highness might have asked you not to roll on the token for the same reason, without expecting any resistance from you. This discussion did not occur before the roll, however, and according to strict adherence to your guild rules (as I understand them), you were entitled to roll on the shoulder token. And if you were allowed to roll on the token, you were of course entitled to take the token if you won the roll. The Royal Couple shouldn't have let you roll on the token in the first place if they were going to react so strongly about an unfavorable outcome.
All around, The Royal Couple are handling the loot situation poorly and reacting strongly when things don't go their way. This will not be the last of the loot drama, even if they permit you to rejoin the raid. So again, you need to rid yourself of this guild as soon as possible. Make sure that the new guild has clearly stated loot rules and that you agree with them before applying.
Warning: As we've seen before, the bad feelings may follow you to your new guild. Make sure you are completely honest in your application about why you left your guild. Be as classy as possible. Bad-mouthing your previous guild leader will not go over well with your prospective guild. Phrases like "misunderstanding" work well to diffuse the blame. One example you could try is:
A misunderstanding about loot rules in a couple of situations caused bad feelings that are not likely to heal. I don't wish to say bad things about my former guild leader, but I'm afraid that she might not return the favor since the incident was so recent. I hope that you will understand that I agree to your loot rules and will adhere to them faithfully if you accept me into your guild.I am guessing our readers have other suggestions about how to sell yourself to your new guild without badmouthing your old one.
Drama Mama Lisa: Robin's got this situation covered. That leaves me with a big, fat opening to squeeze some more juice out of the topic of officer involvement. (It's like the big, red pimple everyone wants to keep caking more concealer on, which of course only makes it crustier and more obvious. Hey, Robin started it off talking about loot drama being "gross" -- I'm just following the theme.)It's particularly discouraging to me to read letters about guild troubles that meekly add at some point, "... and I'm an officer ..." Let's go over this again, for both officers and non-officers alike: Being an officer is not an honorary position awarded based on longevity or friendship. The position exists not only to handle specific tasks but to facilitate open communication at every level of the guild.
If there's drama in any nook or cranny of a guild, the officers should be on the scene. Officers communicate constantly with one another, the GM, and guild members in chat channels, whispers, private officer forums, Vent ... While every officer may not be actively, routinely involved in looting, they certainly should be in conversation whenever a questionable judgment comes along. And it's absolutely appalling that the GM should unilaterally declare any sort of "re-evaluation of the raid team" without the knowledge and participation of the guild officers.
... and you say you're an officer here!
Readers, if you are a guild officer, don't let yourself be strapped to the guild's prow as some sort of figurehead. Walk the decks. Be curious. Ask questions, probe policies, research how other guilds do things, chat up your members. Make yourself a strong link in an active chain of communication. Help keep guild operations and decisions transparent -- or if your guild is more of a benevolent dictatorship, quietly serve as the leadership's check-and-balance system by doing all of these things on a more discreet level.
If you are serving as an officer in name only, you are part of the problem that causes the inevitable "Man overboard!" If you are a GM and you don't allow your officers to share the load, you're guilty as well. While this may be the first time on deck for many players, there are plenty of resources out there to help guild leadership teams develop sound policies and practices. We recommend Officers' Quarters here at WoW Insider or The Guild Counsel at our sister site Massively.
Now go forth, guild officers, and officiate!
Dodge the drama and become that player everyone wants in their group with a little help and insight from the Drama Mamas. Remember, your mama wouldn't want to see your name on any drama. Play nice ... and when in doubt, ask the Drama Mamas at robin@wowinsider.com.
Filed under: Analysis / Opinion, Guilds, Drama Mamas
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 3)
Peebers Nov 21st 2011 9:10AM
dido? i thought this was the queue for a sec.
bigfatdan Nov 21st 2011 9:19AM
Boy, did I read that wrong!
Cheb Nov 21st 2011 9:20AM
"If you have a close-knit raiding guild that believes in progression over collecting shinies, the fact that your shoulders were superior to The Royal Boyfriend's shoulders should have been taken into account before allowing you to roll on the token. Better gear for all regular raiders means easier progression, after all."
Our guild recently had to institute a new rule in regards to tokens, set bonuses, and upgrades because we recently had our own little drama over 378 tier vs regular 378 vs people still with 359s. We had pretty much the exact same thing - people were going for the BIS 4 piece over letting people who'd been unlucky with rolls and drops and were still stuck with 359s or 353s. If you're an officer, use this as a time to get together with the other officers and the guild leader to hammer out specific rules, citing this drama as something you don't want to repeat.
Of course, if you can find a new guild, I probably would, these do sound like shady people. However, on some servers, that's easier said than done. I'm not sure I'd be able to fork over the money to server transfer or faction transfer my main and my stable of alts unless these two started acting shady over legendary stuff. Firelands level loot is about to be obtainable in Hour of Twilight 5 mans, the raid finder will be available if you get uninvited from raid again - if you want to stick with the guild for whatever reason, you'll have more options open to you soon for gearing.
Lissanna Nov 21st 2011 11:47AM
Having clear loot rules matters. If your rules are "roll on whatever you want" and then you have people getting mad every time an item drops in the raid, then the loot rules need to change. It may be that you will want to move to a point-based system that allows for you to earn & spend points for the loot so that things are distributed more evenly across raid members. Alternatively, you can set rules about who can roll on what piece. Random rolling only works when people don't get mad at how the dice turn out.
Lipstick Nov 21st 2011 10:15PM
I've seen the opposite situation, in which a new person comes into the raid team in 359's and the guild is clearing heroics, and suddenly instead of getting that 378 and then 391's they're suddenly getting decked in full 391's -- and from that perspective it gets a bit more sticky as to whether or not lower ilvel should automatically win the role, as arguably the person who has been there longer has earned the heroic gear.
Face it, loot is sticky -- and without predefined standards for loot, it will always be sticky.
I don't necessarily think that the bf/gf were being shady on purpose, so much as once in a while a person wins something and they later think someone else can use it more, so they elect to pass on it. They should of passed it or let the guild as a whole re-roll not just gear out their sweetie-kins, but sometimes that's how it happens.
The whole re-evaluating the raid roster though is where it seems sketchy.
Good luck!
Cheb Nov 22nd 2011 7:26AM
"I don't necessarily think that the bf/gf were being shady on purpose, so much as once in a while a person wins something and they later think someone else can use it more, so they elect to pass on it. They should of passed it or let the guild as a whole re-roll not just gear out their sweetie-kins, but sometimes that's how it happens."
Yeah, when I reread the letter it comes off more as maybe the bf might have been strong armed into giving it to his girlfriend, because it doesn't make sense if he only cares about improving his own toon for him to hand it over only to reroll later. It that was what happened, it's still wrong, obviously, but he chose his gf over the raid. Can't really fault him too much.
I do think however, that then they thought Z was being spiteful when he won the shoulder token. It would've been a huge upgrade for the bf, and when Z chose to roll and keep it over passing, it seemed like a childish way to get back at them. "You took a shiny from my significant other, now I'm taking one from yours, suck it." That's why they're not bringing him back, imo. Not because he called them out.
ccwizard Nov 21st 2011 9:32AM
I'm a Raid Leader of a 10 man group. When a token drop for helm or shoulders it always goes to the person with the lowest ilevel gear for that slot. If everybody wearing the same level then everybody can roll on it . Better gear group easier the kill the week after. It may suck because you got as much right to roll for the drop as the next guy however sometime you to take one for the team.
Zhaph Nov 21st 2011 10:28AM
This sounds like a good system, but how do you handle issues with attendance (I ask simply out of curiosity, I'm not trying to denigrate your system or anything)?
I was in a raiding guild during Wrath that used a system like this, but pieces would frequently go to raiders who only showed up every once in a while (and hence didn't have great gear) over those who showed up for each raid night and spent their non-guild-raid time doing PuGs or chain-running heroics to help upgrade their gear themselves.
I totally believe in giving gear to the person who needs it most, but it always frustrated me when it went to someone who clearly wasn't "working" on his gear himself and had spotty attendance to raids.
Saphiraka Nov 21st 2011 10:38AM
I would say that would work if you had a steady reliable group of raiders but if you were bringing different people each week I could see where it might be unfair as the person who doesn't usually raid has a good chance of having lowest ilevel in that slot. Even if it was 1 new person each week you run the risk of it being 3 -4 weeks in a row that the regular raider had to pass for the new person.
Elwoods Nov 21st 2011 12:01PM
We use an attendance system
Raider > member (Raider ~ 60% raid attendance)
We give priority also to people who can complete 4-piece set
BUT we also take into account iLvl of all players wishing to roll.
As example recently I passed on shoulder token (even though it would have completed my 4-piece) to a member with 353 shoulder and 3 piece.
I got my head piece next raid on guild Raggy no 2 kill :)
Piisuke Nov 21st 2011 1:07PM
@Zaph
I was in a guild in WotLK were we used a roll on what you like system. I was an officer there and I suggested to use a system to hand out items to those who needed it most. However, I lost out on rolls a few times to new members that only joined recently, or didn't raid very often, so I made another suggestion and suggested to keep certain loot only available to members that have raided x amount of times, or have been with us for x amount of time.
What we wanted to achieve here was that everybody had the chance to get better gear, but we also wanted to protect our regular raiders from people that join guilds, get an item and bugger off again. We therefore decided to limit loot rolls. Regular raiders could roll on anything and new raiders could roll on anything, apart from tier tokens and certain high level gear. It was not to stop people from getting certain items, but merely to protect those that worked hard for the guild from getting duped.
We were very open and, if I remember correctly, donating money/items to the gbank, doing x amount of raids and of course respecting the rules allowed one to move up a rank and then started rolling on all items. As always, the person that needs the item most got priority, as we all wanted to make sure we progressed together.
So, tl;dr, make rules stating they can only roll for certain items, or maybe drops from certain bosses. Not to not get them better gear, but to protect the established raiders that work for the guild. After X amount of raids, move them up and explain what has changed now they have moved up. It worked well for us whilst we were raiding. We stopped short of clearing Ulduar, as we lost interest, but we made steady progress whilst we were at it.
JattTheRogue Nov 21st 2011 1:51PM
Ug, I would hate running with that system. Sure, raising the group's overall ilevel is helpful, but that seems to punish people for getting gear on their own outside of the raid. In my raid group, we've had bad luck with head and shoulder drops: most of us are in almost all 378s, have bought everything we can with valor, etc., but still have a 353 or even 346 helm or shoulder slot because of RNG (not to mention PUGs taking the tokens every week until we decided to reserve them for the guild, haha). If I were in a group where the token went to the lowest ilevel slot, there would be zero motivation for me to run a troll to try to upgrade that 346 to a 353, or try to pug into a T11 raid and get at least a 359 and so forth (which was how I upgraded my helm and shoulder slots, respectively: ZA for helm, BWD for shoulders).
MattKrotzer Nov 21st 2011 10:07AM
I'd definitely say to find a new guild to raid with. The only issue is that when you're a tank, it's frequently hard to break into a new guild, since most usually have established tanks in place. (Unless you're my guild, who kicks their established tank to the curb for no apparent reason.... *grumble*)
Altarnun Nov 21st 2011 12:03PM
Agree and disagree here.
Agreed that it can be tough to break into a new guild as tank.
Disagree about finding a new guild however, as it strikes me this tank is already in their perfect guild. What the GM & Partner did was just greedy, however this is compounded by this tank rolling on tier shoulders when they already have i378 shoulders with the other player on i359.
Sure, have guild rules to provide a framework in which to distribute loot, but check all the other comments here about "i pass for you, no please you take them". This is painfully not in evidence here, and so I'm afraid I can summon little sympathy for yet another case of purplitis.
Remember - what goes around comes around, so pass on the tier item for your guild friend as the token will drop again real soon.
loli.gigis Nov 21st 2011 10:10AM
Well for one if you feel this situation is worth saving, suggest a new loot system like DKP. My guild does a round robin type loot. They have everyone listed for each token, tanks and healers have priority over DPS. No one is hurt because everyone will get loot eventually. We also tend to just give each other an item if it is a major upgrade for a particular person. We have a more community as a whole outlook rather then individual person. Sometimes I get into a 'nice' war with the other melee DPS, we try to give each other stuff since we don't want to take everything.
I have to say you should also suggest a new rule, if you are giving your piece that you won to someone else then you have to put it in Raid chat or say it over vent. This way no one is surprised when you don't have that item anymore.
If you really feel it is time to leave then a simple thank you for the time you have spent in the guild and if you are pressed tell them that you don't agree with the current loot rules and you feel that since everyone else is fine with it that you should look for a new raiding guild with rules you agree with.
Also make sure you are honest with your new guild, you can simply say that you didn't agree with their current loot system but since everyone else was fine with it you felt it was time to move on and find a guild that you do agree with the rules. Also look for a guild that uses a system, whether it's a round robin or DKP type system - they should have something in place that prevents people from being upset over loot.
awhiting18 Nov 21st 2011 10:22AM
A problem that we have had recently is that we have a fury warrior with a 378 main-hand, but a 359 OH. We also have a dk tank and ret pally with the 378 axe off of shannox. We have a loot policy that for non-tier items, biggest upgrade takes priority. This left us in quite the quandary when we did heroic shannox and the 391 version of the same axe dropped. We weren't quite sure how to handle an off-hand issue, though I was inclined to give it to the warrior simply because warrior dps is so weapon dependent. What ended up happening is we just did an equal open roll on the 3 people who could use it, and the dk tank won the roll. Any thoughts on this?
loli.gigis Nov 21st 2011 12:34PM
Yeah the DK tank uses a 2h weapon, the Ret pally uses a 2h weapon. Both can only use a 1h on their offspec so it should have gone to warrior for main spec DPS.
Main > off spec no matter what kind of upgrade it is for off spec. Your warrior is ALWAYS using the weapon, your other two only sometimes use the weapon. Off hand shouldn't be different then main hand. Off hand is the same as shields and other items classes use. You shouldn't penalize the warrior for using dual wielding as that is what he should be doing. I am wondering if there is more to this story, like the pally or DK got loot whiny.
By the way, the only way the pally should have wanted it was for tanking or healing which they wouldn't be using a dps weapon for either.
antivyris Nov 21st 2011 12:37PM
This is easy actually.
First off, you are thinking about it wrong.
If warrior wins the 391, it will go to his main hand and the off-hand becmes the 378. Therefore, you are upgrading his mainhand to 391 from 378. This would be the same as an upgrade from a 378/378 situation. Unlike rogues, there are not 2-hand weapons specifically designed for off-hands, so all 3 should roll fairly since it would be an equal upgrade across the board.
FordPrfct Nov 21st 2011 1:09PM
@loli.gigis: The axe from Shannox is a 2-hander. So it was main spec for the retadin and the DK tank.
loli.gigis Nov 21st 2011 1:23PM
Ah I misunderstood that, I thought it was a 1h weapon that dropped. Probably would have given it to the tank then no matter what, but then again with our round robin system the tank would have had priority over the DPS. Then the warrior would have had priority on the next one over the pally.