Officers' Quarters: Trouble with a demoted raid leader
by Scott Andrews 
Nov 21st 2011 at 1:00PM
The only thing worse than being asked by your guild to lead raids is being asked to lead raids in which the previous raid leader still participates. This week, that's exactly what one unfortunate player is facing.
Hi Scott,
I've been reading your blog for a little while because I'm a Cata baby and I want to make sure I'm able to navigate the sticky culture of guilds. I've gone through several guilds on my hunter main, trying to find a consistent raid group with real progression. After leaving a couple of guilds because progression just wasn't happening, I was recruited as a DPS for my current guild's Group Two.
The first few weeks of raiding were rocky, because the raid leader is not very articulate and is bad at explaining fights. He also takes criticism very personally and for the first couple weeks his DPS was (no other way to put it) terribad. One of the group's healers basically overrode him in voice chat and effectively took over management of the raid group, although the original raid lead was still party leader and loot master. However, several of the group members had a problem with the way the healer ran the group and the way he spoke to other party members. Despite the fact that Group 2 was now getting real progression and players were earning great gear, tension still mounted.
Hi, RU. Great pseudonym!The guild leadership began sitting in our voice channel during raids and taking notes of how everyone was behaving. Eventually they approached me and asked if I would be willing to take over as leader of Group 2, since I was better at explaining and had a very professional attitude about conflict. They said that since the original leader was unseated so easily, he obviously didn't display leadership qualities. I didn't want to cause any drama, so I told them I was willing to take over as long as guild leadership were the ones to talk to the original raid lead and the healer about it.
The healer didn't take the change in authority well and was rude to our guild leader about it, so he was subsequently kicked from the guild. Now I'm the leader of Group 2 and we're getting ready to start heroic progression. However, the original raid leader has been asking for some favors like subbing his current character out for an undergeared alt. He also continues to talk over me during explanations because he feels like he would be better at explaining even when he's not. Overall, I don't think he's really accepted the fact that he's no longer the leader of the raid.
My problem is this: I don't want to lose him from the raid group, but I don't want to put up with him talking over me or insisting he brings a different character than the one we've already integrated into our raid. I'm not sure how to talk to him about this in a way he would listen, since as I mentioned he doesn't take criticism very well. I don't want to get guild leadership involved because then it seems like I can't take care of the problems in my own raid group. I have the support of the other party members and they've all said they prefer me as a raid leader over him, but I really don't want to cause an open confrontation that may lead to his leaving the raid group.
I really need some advice here!
Thanks for reading,
Reluctant Usurper
Raid leadership is a highly stressful role to play within a guild, one in which level-headedness and patience are paramount. Kudos to you for taking on this challenging assignment -- even if you did so reluctantly!
I like the fact that your leadership took the initiative to listen in and decide what to do about this raid team. Too often a guild's officers are content to ignore secondary teams and let them sort themselves out (or not). It sounds to me like they made the right choice for a new raid leader.
Two options
The way I see it, you have two options here:
Talk to this player yourself and face the consequences. The pro here is that you're handling your own business, which you say you prefer. The con is if it blows up in your face, which you seem to think it will. In that event, the blame will likely be placed on you for "creating" the problem -- even though you're just trying to do your job well.
This issue doesn't have to become a huge confrontation, however, if you approach it in an indirect way. Just make a general request to the raid that any strategy information or suggestions be whispered to you rather than spoken over Vent. Say you don't want people to get confused about the strategy, so you'd like to be the one to present it for each boss. Hopefully, he'll take the hint. Since you aren't singling him out, he'll be less likely to feel persecuted.
Since the issue is between the two of you, you could take it to the officers. That's part of the reason officers exist, after all -- to mediate disputes between members who need a higher authority to resolve the issue. In your case, I would try A first, and then B if A fails. At that point, you've got a raid member who's repeatedly violating a direct request from you as the raid leader. Therefore, you have a legitimate reason to bring the problem to them.
B is certainly more likely to result in this player flying off the handle if you manage A without a direct confrontation. However, if he's impeding your ability to lead, then you don't have much choice in the matter.
Compromise over characters
The decision to switch raiding characters is always a difficult one for raid leaders. On the one hand, you want your players to be happy with their toon choice so that they'll continue to have fun raiding.
On the other hand, switching toons can have dire consequences for raid teams in terms of DPS, healing and survivability, as well as which buffs, debuffs and utility you have access to. Sometimes it can mean other people have to perform a role in a specific encounter that they've never done before, such as flying during Alysrazor, steering Rhyolith, or triggering magma traps versus Ragnaros. You never want to see progression suffer as a result of a character switch.
In this case, I'd ask him if he could stick with his original character through the rest of this patch cycle and your heroic Firelands attempts. Certainly he can wait a couple of weeks to avoid stalling progression. Tell him he can switch it up for patch 4.3 once he gets that other toon geared up. Between the Raid Finder and the new dungeons, getting an alt up to speed won't be a huge chore. It's a compromise I think you can both live with.
/salute
Recently, Officers' Quarters has examined how strong new leadership can create a guild turnaround, the pitfalls of promising more than you can deliver, and lessons learned from Scott's own guild demise. Send your own guild-related questions and suggestions to scott@wowinsider.com.
Filed under: Officers' Quarters (Guild Leadership)
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 2)
Durenas Nov 21st 2011 1:23PM
I would tell him, in private, to shape up, or ship out. I'd give him one warning, and if he can't do it, he gets benched. Permanantly.
Mummrah Nov 21st 2011 6:25PM
I just read your comment as Arnold in my head. Very funny. You're luggage.
Sleutel Nov 21st 2011 11:43PM
Yes. There ABSOLUTELY needs to be DIRECT feedback to someone when they're doing something wrong. I'm actually shocked that Andrews actually recommended what in my experience is one of the most popular--and least effective--techniques shared by bad managers: namely, giving instructions to an entire group that are actually intended for one single person.
The people who are already doing the right thing will potentially be resentful that you're telling them to fix a problem they don't have, and the person who isn't doing the right thing won't ever figure out that your feedback is intended for them.
If the problem is with the group, address the group. If the problem is with a person, address *that person*. If you can't handle giving individual, targeted feedback, then you don't deserve a leadership position. Period.
Imogen Nov 21st 2011 1:31PM
If you use ventrilo the server admin can grant you the ability to mute everyone else when you are talking.
Lissanna Nov 21st 2011 1:41PM
You shouldn't need to mute everyone, though. working out the personal issues is healthier for the guild than heavy-handed muting.
hawaiiansouljah Nov 21st 2011 2:05PM
@ Lissanna - It's a rough thing to do but on the flip side you shouldn't see it as "heavy-handed muting." I'll show my age in WoW life here but back in the vanilla days 40 man raids were utter insanity, now factor that into the 40 people in a vent channel (plus or minus for lazy AFKers or curious listeners) with one or two people attempting to lead a raid.....you begin to see the value of an admin granted "Mute others while talking." What is happening, I gather from this letter without the benefit of being present, is the same type of thing that went on back in vanilla only on a smaller scale. The sub thing aside, its the same story: Someone who thinks they know better with no authority to say differently (unless allowed to) about strats, etc. is talking over the raid leader.
One can argue that letting the person talk over the raid leader (former position or not) does not merit being muted and that its not conducive or healthy to working out personal issues. The premise here is that the person who is causing the issues wants to even work the issues out. Its a safer bet that prohibiting that type of behavior in a raid, with 9 or 24 other people who are also investing their time, with a mute is healthier than letting the behavior be continuously heard and in effect causing a raid to come to a grinding halt.
Gendou Nov 21st 2011 1:48PM
In my experience as a raid leader: Nine times out of ten, when someone wants to bring an undergeared alt to a raid, it's not because they want to play a different class or because they are switching to a different main because their old main is no longer fun.
No, usually it's because they are greedy selfish children. Their main has gotten all of the drops they need, so now they want to start gearing up their favorite alts, and they want the rest of the raid team to carry them to loot.
It's doubly selfish, because it forces the other raiders to pick up the slack for the under-performing alt, as well as denying loot to the regular raiders so that someone who has already geared their main can gear up their alt.
Nip it in the bud. Unless there is a damned good reason for switching out characters, just say no to greedy selfish children.
Elica1079 Nov 21st 2011 2:00PM
^ very much this
Legs Nov 21st 2011 2:22PM
Not to disagree, but hopefully the OP can just ask the old raid leader if he plans to switch toons or not and that can help guide the decision.
I am actually in that very situation right now: I am planning to switch from cloth ranged DPS to cat DPS for 4.3 (we are HEAVY in clothed ranged, so gearing up is slow in raids, there is no other agi leather wearer in our group, plus I can tank with my OS to make gearing much quicker in dungeons).
I asked the group if they minded me using my cat (which is ~359 ilevel) instead of my mage (~370) for the easy fights (i.e. not rag :P), and while they said yes, our guild leader asked that I wait until 4.3 to do so for reasons that were stated in the article: in 4.3, base level heroic dungeon/JP gear will be 378 so my alt will very quickly gear up. The only real thing I'm losing is the shot at shoulder/head tokens which would be nice to have.
Reason the GL gave was to simply eliminate the chance of guild drama in case someone else wanted to do the same in the future and wasn't as well prepared to do so as I am, which I think is fair. She does enough work to keep us moving forward without any added work.
eel5pe Nov 21st 2011 2:34PM
This is EXACTLY why my raid has a no-alt policy. The worst is when people want to switch out just for one or two fights because their alt just HAS to have an item that drops off X boss. I had to put up with a lot of whining through WotLK but luckily a lot of main raiders were on board with the policy. It's just such a waste of time to wait for someone to log off, summon them in (assuming we have a lock), have them get resituated, adjust the raid strategy for the alt, and then start the fight only to find out the bleeping warlock-now-mage is in bloody PvP gear.
I tell my raiders that they are able to pick a new main on patch day (for example our warrior is going rogue for the legendary since we are currently rogue-less) and that is it.
Rob Nov 22nd 2011 6:58AM
Usually a 2nd group would be for alts. In this case, its a second progression group. Unfortunately there are not alot of options for alts right now in this case. The only thing that can be done is set up a THIRD group on offnights for alts. But my guess is good luck getting that going.
Back in the day we would have off night raids at lower tiers for alts, occassionally some mains would come and carry the raid through. Good example is kara, we ran that SOO many times, because the rewards were fantastic. (most badges/hr). So, see if people are willing to do tier 10 stuff. When 4.3 hits this will be easier, you can run the LFR, firelands, and the new 5 mans for alts. Right now, there just are not many options.
Elica1079 Nov 21st 2011 1:58PM
I have the same issue with my alt run that I raid lead on off nights, although this person has never been raid leader of my alt run he claims hes raid leaded before in other guilds and its a bad habit to stop, myself and the other people in my run have asked him many times to stop trying to lead but no matter what he still overrides me calling stuff out when I dont feel its nessisary to call stuff out etc. we're all 6 / 7 heroic on our mains and I dont feel like my guildies need thier hands held in an alt run thats there purely for fun. I've spoken to him several times that he just needs to keep vent quiet let me call out what i think needs to be called out and other wise enjoy the run, but he doesnt get the hint so im afraid my only option is to stop inviting him, its to the point that if i invite him i lose other people that wont come if hes there : /
Jeff (Not that one ^ ) Nov 21st 2011 2:11PM
Raid team rule #1: You don't switch to your lower-geared alt when we're working on progression content. If we're on farm, go ahead. If you can't live by this rule, the door is thataway.
Raid team rule #2: Don't talk over anyone else in Vent--especially in the middle of a fight explanation. If you think something was wrong, or think that something (c)/(sh)ould be done differently, speak up AFTER the explanation. If you can't live by this rule, the door is thataway.
Jeff (Not that one ^ ) Nov 21st 2011 2:14PM
For raid team rule #1, if you're switching to your alt, you should be prepared for that alt to fill the same role as your main, at (near) the same level of competency. This means that if you're a healer, you can't just switch to your dps toon "just 'cause". That means that soemone else has to heal, which means that you might lose your spot since DPS is full.
Totemer Nov 21st 2011 5:34PM
When my raid felt we were ready for firelands we had a raid team meetig in vent. We were told to take a week off and think about if we wanted to do fireland( stupI'd question). And what toon we would like to take for what role. We were cautioned to be sure of our answer because once we started the tier we would be held to that Position and toon for the remainder if the tier. If we wanted out we would have to step down and apply for the spot with any others who wanted it. We are yet to have an issue and always got all the buffs covered we need.
tibbelkrunk Nov 21st 2011 2:25PM
My favorite line is: "You're welcome to bring your main to our guild raids."
Followed by: "You're also welcome to start up and lead a weekly alt raid on one of our off-nights."
loli.gigis Nov 21st 2011 3:00PM
I have a few points that I am surprised was not mentioned:
- He should go to the officers and let them know what he plans to do and even invite them to listen in on the conversation, they should however refrain from speaking unless things are getting out of hand. This would be a good time to do phantoms in the channel in order to hear the conversation but they would not be able to say anything. The member shouldn't object as the officers have every right to listen in what is going on between a raid leader and a raider should they need to step in for any reason.
- If he is in fact a terrible DPS focus should be put on helping him get his stuff right before worrying about his alt. Maybe someone plays his class/spec in the other group and would be willing to help him with it. Or if there isn't maybe someone knows a top player of their spec that would be willing to help them. We had to do this with a mage, after a few weeks of him not doing anything about his gear/playing he was given the ultimatum of getting his stuff together or losing his raid spot as it was holding back progression.
- The raid leader should suggest to the officers/gm to make an alt run group, this satisfies the raider's want to gear up their alt while keeping the current raid team intact. If it is viable for his geared alt to come in as his main raider then make it clear that it will only happen when he is geared and that he won't have special looting in the runs in order to get his gear. This would also make sense if you have subs in the guild that don't get to normally run FL as it would gear them up to step into HM when you need them. This is the primary reason my guild does alt runs is to gear up the subs so they are about the same level as the regular group.
WHUTDUH Nov 21st 2011 3:41PM
Personally I would take it as a sign to direct your interests to something else. Dealing with nonsense from other players is not worth it. WoW should be an enjoyable experience, but seeing the issues that the OP is facing should be a wake up call that the experience is now tainted.
If everyone in this game treated each other with respect and HELPED instead of CRITICIZE and DEMOTE then the game would have a bright future. As it stands now, WoWs death march has already started.
Noah Nov 21st 2011 4:21PM
Actually, the vast majority of the MoP and Cata whiners are veterans, not noobs. Everybody's whining about the talent changes, the new spells, the pandaren, the pet battle system, giving the "in my day" speech over and over and over. I notice virtually no noobs complaining about that.
Fallacy Nov 21st 2011 4:31PM
"his DPS was (no other way to put it) terribad."
...actually there are a LOT of other, better, ways to put it, and if you cannot recognize this, then you may be causing problems and not even realize it.
"lower than it should be", "not up to what we need it to be for a successful run", "low". This is how you address issues of low dps. Not "terribad". When you say that he takes criticism personally, but use insulting words like "terribad", it makes me wonder whether he might be a bit justified.
A good part of leadership is diplomacy, and... well... you're a leader now and, as a leader, it's your responsibility to be diplomatic. It not his responsibility to have thick skin. It's your responsibility to choose your words to address issues in a way that eliminates drama, rather than increasing it.