Bashiok explains why the MoP talent calculator is out already
by Michael Gray 
Nov 23rd 2011 at 5:00PM
Of course, Mists of Pandaria is a long time away. We've got an entire content patch to get through first. Bashiok hit the forums today to explain why the talent calculator is available so early.
He points out that these talent trees are definitely going to change; we're still in a pre-alpha stage of development. Since many of those changes will happen in response to player feedback, getting the dialog started early is a good thing. More importantly, the hope is that by revealing the early talents, players can get a better idea of the design philosophy behind changes.
Whether you dig those reasons or not, we're all clearly very excited to get our hands on the talents. Check out what Bashiok said behind the cut.
We wanted to take a moment to give some context to why the calculators were posted, and the permanence of the data shown. A lot of times we say things like "not final" and "may change" as verbal wiggle room should we decide we need to go a different direction, or are unable to complete something in time. In this case of the Mists of Pandaria calculator data is essentially pre-alpha, and will absolutely change in many ways.
It was important for us to get this stuff in front of you as soon as possible though (and as a work in progress as it is) to get your feedback, which will in no small part influence that change. We also wanted to present everything on a single page to give you a fuller context for the initial talent changes we announced at BlizzCon, and to see how the overall structure of core abilities, spec abilities, and talents will function, with concrete examples.
The calculator contains elements that are experimental, still in the process of implementation, or in some cases outright failed experiments that we already intend to revise or replace. Odds are good that if it looks like we've forgotten some critical piece of a particular class toolkit, it's either accounted for elsewhere, or simply a data glitch (e.g., Prayer of Healing is currently absent from the calculator – we are not taking Prayer of Healing away from priests, and Devastate for warriors probably won't sunder armor 453%). Our hope is that revealing the calculator in this state will shed light on the philosophy behind our talent overhaul, and let you get a sense of how pieces of your core rotational gameplay, such as Hot Streak, Riptide, or Sudden Doom, fit into the new system.
The different classes are also at very different stages of design and implementation, and the fact that some mechanics changes we discussed at BlizzCon and in recent Q&As are not yet present does not mean that we have abandoned those ideas.
Any and all feedback is very welcome, but please keep all of the above in mind when considering the information in the talent calculator, and please keep feedback consolidated in the Mists of Pandaria forum: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/2592425/
It was important for us to get this stuff in front of you as soon as possible though (and as a work in progress as it is) to get your feedback, which will in no small part influence that change. We also wanted to present everything on a single page to give you a fuller context for the initial talent changes we announced at BlizzCon, and to see how the overall structure of core abilities, spec abilities, and talents will function, with concrete examples.
The calculator contains elements that are experimental, still in the process of implementation, or in some cases outright failed experiments that we already intend to revise or replace. Odds are good that if it looks like we've forgotten some critical piece of a particular class toolkit, it's either accounted for elsewhere, or simply a data glitch (e.g., Prayer of Healing is currently absent from the calculator – we are not taking Prayer of Healing away from priests, and Devastate for warriors probably won't sunder armor 453%). Our hope is that revealing the calculator in this state will shed light on the philosophy behind our talent overhaul, and let you get a sense of how pieces of your core rotational gameplay, such as Hot Streak, Riptide, or Sudden Doom, fit into the new system.
The different classes are also at very different stages of design and implementation, and the fact that some mechanics changes we discussed at BlizzCon and in recent Q&As are not yet present does not mean that we have abandoned those ideas.
Any and all feedback is very welcome, but please keep all of the above in mind when considering the information in the talent calculator, and please keep feedback consolidated in the Mists of Pandaria forum: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/2592425/
World of Warcraft: Mists of Pandaria is the next expansion, raising the level cap to 90, introducing a brand new talent system, and bringing forth the long-lost pandaren race to both Horde and Alliance. Check out the trailer and follow us for all the latest MoP news!
Filed under: Mists of Pandaria
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 4)
Caylynn Nov 23rd 2011 5:18PM
Hopefully that will stop all the QQing about all the missing stuff. Clearly this is a work in progress and everything isn't in place yet.
Carune Nov 23rd 2011 5:43PM
No, the QQ is in strong force even now.
Noyou Nov 23rd 2011 5:55PM
I commend them for doing it and it was a very insightful post. That being said, people need to chill out. As obviously stated, it can and will change many times along the road. I am very much looking forward to playing the mage and rogue (especially the rogue) in Beta. I hope the rogue talents can stay long enough for us to try them out. I am getting close to having an 85 of every class and as some of you may know, am not shy about my feedback ;)
Tiqu Nov 23rd 2011 6:32PM
Curious, it seems that they are removing the ability to "design" your character so that it's different from others. Could be wrong, but that seems to be the directions they are moving towards.
Imnick Nov 23rd 2011 7:06PM
This isn't the first time your question has been answered and it won't be the last.
They are not removing any sort of ability to customise your character. If anything, they are adding it.
Go into a raid, a raid of COMPETENT players. Look at the players. Compare people who are the same class and same spec. What is the different in their talents.
One? Two points? At most.
Cookie cutter builds are everywhere. The current talent system gives the illusion of choice but very little actual room for decision making.
This new talent system leaves things far more ambiguous as to which talent is going to be most useful in a given situation. You make REAL choices, and any two people are far less likely to be identical.
They are doing the opposite of removing the ability for characters to be different, they are adding it.
Boobah Nov 23rd 2011 7:07PM
As has been discussed here (and other places) your customization is in your talents, and to a lesser degree, glyphs.
The intent (naturally, the reality may not match) is that talents don't have a 'right' answer. Or at least not an answer that is 'right' for all situations.
Removing the current talent trees is largely a matter of eliminating 'wrong' answers. Very few specs had more than five or six 'free' talent points that you could reasonably place wherever you wanted without gimping your character to some degree.
Well, now every spec will have six 'free' talent points, and none of them are boring '+x% per talent point' talents; they're either extra buttons to press directly, or enable extra things when you push the buttons you already want to push. Most of them are (intentionally) not direct DPS/healing/survivability buttons.
They are by no means perfect or anywhere near final, of course; as Bashiok points out, the xpac isn't even in alpha yet.
As an example, the armor specializations are apparently trained at 55 on shamans, 50 on warlocks, and level 1 for druids and hunters (who can't even equip mail until 40).
Then you've got things like Wind Shear showing up with a 15 second cooldown for all three specs (although that may be intentional, since there was something in one of the dev watercoolers about making interrupts less common and more meaningful, IIRC) and all shamans are also back to a cast-time Ghost Wolf (at least without burning a talented cooldown), which might also be intentional.
Aalokor Nov 23rd 2011 7:10PM
@Tiqu is that a new thing?
I've been going through the talent system for TOR, which is quite the throwback to old-school talent trees.
I've got to say, I rarely see more than about 3-6 points (effectively 1or 2 talents) that could reasonably be moved around in any given build. given the choice between that and MoP talents, I'd honestly prefer the latter. I'll take effective choice over the illusion of choice any day.
That being said, I've pre-ordered TOR, it's just not the talent structure that draws me there. It's Bioware, and it's effing Star Wars. what could go wrong?
Tiqu Nov 23rd 2011 8:19PM
What if you are a player like me who doesn't want to raid?
Tabasa Nov 23rd 2011 9:21PM
@Tiqu
Raiding and not raiding shouldn't make a difference here. If anything, not being a raider should make the options even more open to you, since you'll be completely free to pick whatever you want to pick without worrying about whether that playstyle will mesh with any particular encounter.
Your talent choices with the new system are set up so that every choice you make will actually do something tangible and let you change the way you do whatever that tier is designed to address.
I guess you could make a case for throwing random points wherever in the current talent system with the justification that you aren't raiding and thus it doesn't matter, but I've very rarely seen anyone do that in Cata and have it yield anything particularly fun and engaging. Because so many talents are directly tied to damage increases, there's not a lot of room for experimentation, and even if you tried to force points into unusual combinations you probably wouldn't see very much change in the way your character worked outside of the damage fluctuating in weird ways.
With the current system, there's really only three "builds" you get for any particular spec - PvE-suitable, PvP-suitable, or "broken". The revamp just gives you most of the "required" abilities that you had to take anyways to keep yourself from being in the "broken" category, and leaves you with actual customization of how your character is going to play.
Tiqu Nov 23rd 2011 9:35PM
@ Tabasa
Thank you for your explanation. Maybe my misunderstanding is part of the reason i don't like raiding or endgame so much. Tiqu
rapsam2003 Nov 24th 2011 12:05AM
QQ never stops. Because QQ'ers usually QQ before checking things out. You should see how the DK (my main is a Blood DK) forum is rife with idiots going, "But what about this?" or "Blood is getting screwed" or "My spec SHOULD be so OP in PvP that no one else ever wins", etc.
Suzaku Nov 24th 2011 9:56AM
Screw the current "choices", those aren't any choices at all. It's an illusion.
By the time you hit level 80 you've got just about every talent in the whole tree. Even those talents you skipped over back at level 40-something. You have so many points and so few talents to choose from that it's not even possible to avoid doing that. You've got a little bit of play on which other tree you dump your remaining points into. That's it.
Seriously, log into the game right now and look at your talents, and which two or three talents you didn't pick. If you don't PVP, they were probably "reduce so and so's movement speed when you this or that" or "break stuns when whatever". If you do PVP, maybe something else.
THAT'S the "choice" your fighting for? Two or three talents you didn't pick?
When was the last time you changed your spec? I specced Affliction primary and Demonology secondary on my warlock main. I haven't had to spend a single gold to change up the talents in about 8 months. Don't even have to give them a second thought.
THAT'S the variety you want so desperately to hold on to?
Give me a break.
Suzaku Nov 24th 2011 10:14AM
Screw the current "choices", those aren't any choices at all. It's an illusion.
By the time you hit level 80 you've got just about every talent in the whole tree. Even those talents you skipped over back at level 40-something. You have so many points and so few talents to choose from that it's not even possible to avoid doing that. You've got a little bit of play on which other tree you dump your remaining points into. That's it.
Seriously, log into the game right now and look at your talents, and which two or three talents you didn't pick. If you don't PVP, they were probably "reduce so and so's movement speed when you this or that" or "break stuns when whatever". If you do PVP, maybe something else.
THAT'S the "choice" your fighting for? Two or three talents you didn't pick?
When was the last time you changed your spec? I specced Affliction primary and Demonology secondary on my warlock main. I haven't had to spend a single gold to change up the talents in about 8 months. Don't even have to give them a second thought.
THAT'S the variety you want so desperately to hold on to?
Give me a break.
boil.san Nov 23rd 2011 5:18PM
Looking at the breakdown over at MMO-Champion, Rogues seem to have the least changes/new (revised) spells; wondering if Blizz thinks Rogues are GTG, or if they have not fleshed that particular class out yet… Dunno, just wondering how long to get used to a new rotation, if needed. At least I am Combat, so it will only be a few buttons to relearn…! ;^p
Noyou Nov 23rd 2011 6:02PM
As I stated above, I cannot wait to play the rogue in beta. My main spec is combat too. The thought of having shadowstep and dirty tricks is very exciting. If it holds up, people are going to dread rogues even more. I also noticed that hunters are getting some nice self heals in their talents.
Imnick Nov 23rd 2011 11:00PM
MoP is at least six months away and probably a lot more, you'll have plenty of time to find out and learn about any rogue changes.
They haven't even released 4.3 yet!
blackjack47 Nov 24th 2011 2:16PM
I'm not sure if there are any PvP rogues reading this, but all I can say is that I'm disappointed that we will be forced to give up Shadowstep for Preparation. I realize that it has been stated that these talents are subject to change between now and MoP's release but still... If they keep SS and Prep on the same tier then I highly doubt that I'll continue to play Rogue PvP. To me, SS was a key part of being a Sub Rogue, and to me it was one of the most enjoyable parts of PvPing as a Rogue. Having to choose between it and Prep is just silly because Prep will always come out over SS any day in terms of survivability. It's just not fair to people who PvP casually. I understand everybody hates encountering Rogues while PvPing, but you need to understand where I'm coming from here.
Saeadame Nov 23rd 2011 5:26PM
Resto druid reaction:
HOLY SHIT IRON BARK
HOLY SHIT MIGHT OF URSOC
HOLY SHIT BASELINE 1SEC GCD REJ
HOLY SHIT SYMBIOSES!!! OMG SERIOUSLY THIS ABILITY IT LIKE WHAT IS THIS I CAN'T EVEN...
I'MMA GO OFF IN THE CORNER AND CRY A LITTLE BECAUSE MOP IS SO FAR AWAY AND WHY DO I LOOK AT THESE PREVIEW THINGS THEY JUST MAKE ME WANT IT TO HAPPEN NOW AND WHY ISN'T HERE YET PEOPLE WHY WHY WHY WHY
/epic flailing freak out. Seriously, this is me AFTER I got out of my chair after reading the abilities and ran around my house to calm down. So excited, can't you tell!
Pam Nov 23rd 2011 5:57PM
Skull Bash for resto? gone (saved my @#$ in PvP sometimes)
Nerf to Wild Growth? Next patch
OoC Rez? gone (except for resto) next xpac (please tell me this is an error).
Regrowth mana cost to 35%? next xpac
85% mana cost for hurricane? next xpac
Lifebloom for resto only? next xpac
I do agree castable barkskin and healing mushrooms and healing treants are cool, but at what cost?
I am trying to be happy, as soon as I get over being sad about some of the things I have to give up to get those 'cool neat wow' things.
Akawaka Nov 23rd 2011 6:05PM
First off Saeadaeme, your adorable and I felt the same way lol ;p
Dear Blizz LOVE this mode of thinking and leaping into new ground, only I advise, leap some more! I love mages and druids, shamans best but go even further to defining the different specs. Make Fire Mages only cast fire spells save for frost nova and dido for frost and Arcane!
And Metamorphosis and that demonic leap thing at level 10 or there abouts???? Holy awesome Batman! I might just role a Warlock for once! And Riptide at level 10, oh so watery1 lol
Keep going Blizz change is good just ask David Bowie, Ch-ch-ch-changes! ;p
Onlly complaint is getting rid of feral charge for kitties, leaping as a Cat is the best part of being a Cat.......:(