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All of the latest Mists of Pandaria newsBashiok explains why the MoP talent calculator is out already
by Michael Gray 
Nov 23rd 2011 at 5:00PM
Of course, Mists of Pandaria is a long time away. We've got an entire content patch to get through first. Bashiok hit the forums today to explain why the talent calculator is available so early.
He points out that these talent trees are definitely going to change; we're still in a pre-alpha stage of development. Since many of those changes will happen in response to player feedback, getting the dialog started early is a good thing. More importantly, the hope is that by revealing the early talents, players can get a better idea of the design philosophy behind changes.
Whether you dig those reasons or not, we're all clearly very excited to get our hands on the talents. Check out what Bashiok said behind the cut.
We wanted to take a moment to give some context to why the calculators were posted, and the permanence of the data shown. A lot of times we say things like "not final" and "may change" as verbal wiggle room should we decide we need to go a different direction, or are unable to complete something in time. In this case of the Mists of Pandaria calculator data is essentially pre-alpha, and will absolutely change in many ways.
It was important for us to get this stuff in front of you as soon as possible though (and as a work in progress as it is) to get your feedback, which will in no small part influence that change. We also wanted to present everything on a single page to give you a fuller context for the initial talent changes we announced at BlizzCon, and to see how the overall structure of core abilities, spec abilities, and talents will function, with concrete examples.
The calculator contains elements that are experimental, still in the process of implementation, or in some cases outright failed experiments that we already intend to revise or replace. Odds are good that if it looks like we've forgotten some critical piece of a particular class toolkit, it's either accounted for elsewhere, or simply a data glitch (e.g., Prayer of Healing is currently absent from the calculator – we are not taking Prayer of Healing away from priests, and Devastate for warriors probably won't sunder armor 453%). Our hope is that revealing the calculator in this state will shed light on the philosophy behind our talent overhaul, and let you get a sense of how pieces of your core rotational gameplay, such as Hot Streak, Riptide, or Sudden Doom, fit into the new system.
The different classes are also at very different stages of design and implementation, and the fact that some mechanics changes we discussed at BlizzCon and in recent Q&As are not yet present does not mean that we have abandoned those ideas.
Any and all feedback is very welcome, but please keep all of the above in mind when considering the information in the talent calculator, and please keep feedback consolidated in the Mists of Pandaria forum: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/2592425/
It was important for us to get this stuff in front of you as soon as possible though (and as a work in progress as it is) to get your feedback, which will in no small part influence that change. We also wanted to present everything on a single page to give you a fuller context for the initial talent changes we announced at BlizzCon, and to see how the overall structure of core abilities, spec abilities, and talents will function, with concrete examples.
The calculator contains elements that are experimental, still in the process of implementation, or in some cases outright failed experiments that we already intend to revise or replace. Odds are good that if it looks like we've forgotten some critical piece of a particular class toolkit, it's either accounted for elsewhere, or simply a data glitch (e.g., Prayer of Healing is currently absent from the calculator – we are not taking Prayer of Healing away from priests, and Devastate for warriors probably won't sunder armor 453%). Our hope is that revealing the calculator in this state will shed light on the philosophy behind our talent overhaul, and let you get a sense of how pieces of your core rotational gameplay, such as Hot Streak, Riptide, or Sudden Doom, fit into the new system.
The different classes are also at very different stages of design and implementation, and the fact that some mechanics changes we discussed at BlizzCon and in recent Q&As are not yet present does not mean that we have abandoned those ideas.
Any and all feedback is very welcome, but please keep all of the above in mind when considering the information in the talent calculator, and please keep feedback consolidated in the Mists of Pandaria forum: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/2592425/
World of Warcraft: Mists of Pandaria is the next expansion, raising the level cap to 90, introducing a brand new talent system, and bringing forth the long-lost pandaren race to both Horde and Alliance. Check out the trailer and follow us for all the latest MoP news!
Filed under: Mists of Pandaria
Reader Comments (Page 2 of 4)
Arrohon Nov 23rd 2011 6:15PM
YES! Now that kitties don't have Feral Charge I'll be able to eat their face with my 453% sunder. (unless actually stated that it would be removed, Feral Charge simply might not have been added yet)
Saeadame Nov 23rd 2011 6:21PM
I'm not too worried, I typically don't look at numbers at all until at least beta, usually not until much later. They just change so much, it's not even worth it. It's more to look at the ideas of the abilities, and thus far they look great. It's true, I used Skull Bash, but mostly when the people in my group were bad and couldn't interrupt... I like being able to bail my group out when they suck, but if I really, really want that functionality I can always grab displacer beast+pounce and cat from+some ability+maim. Skull Bash required anticipation because it took 1 GCD for Cat Form, 1 GCD for Skull Bash anyway, so there's no reason why you couldn't use some ability to build one combo point at the beginning of a fight, and then have Cat Form + Maim ready if you need it. True, it's not quite as nice because you need to move into melee range, rather than being able to charge in there, but I've long had a secondary interrupt in Bear Form with macro'd rage pot+Bash, which also requires melee range. As well, we have additional stuns/interrupts in the form of Bear Hug, and Ursol's Vortex which, provided it can actually move the enemy (like Death Grip) it will interrupt.
Wild Growth gets nerfed and buffed and nerfed and buffed. It's pretty whatever by now.
I don't care too much about what feral can't do that resto can, because I never play those. I can understand that some people like the utility, but ferals also now have access to Nature's Swiftness+Rebirth, which makes it instant, free, and castable in Cat/Bear/Moonkin form. For Guardian druids, this will be invaluable (much more so than the other talent Druids might be interested in that tier, Renewal, since they likely can't shift in and out of bear form except in very specific situations). So they haven't actually lost much, in that respect (you could argue that they've gained, actually, since the rebirth is castable in forms, so you don't have to waste time shifting in and out).
They 85% hurricane change really is just cementing Moonkin AoE as multi-dotting and mushroom exploding. Most moonkins don't use it now, unless they're being especially lazy, so the functionality of hurricane was really for the glyphed slow that you could get. This makes you have to think about using that functionality.
Anyway, like I said I'm not too worried, everything looks really fantastic right now (yes, even some of the changes you were citing as negatives), and I can't wait for beta ;).
Saeadame Nov 23rd 2011 6:28PM
PS - The only cat feral charge functionality is now in the talent "Wild Charge" - so it's probably not coming back as a baseline ability. You can choose between the current feral charge available in that talent and the incarnation talent (which allows you to use abilities that normally require stealth out of stealth and lets you stealth while in combat).
Silversol Nov 23rd 2011 6:33PM
Forgot about healing mushrooms.
And kitty feral charge is still there.
Boobah Nov 23rd 2011 7:15PM
As far as Hurricane goes: Safe to say it's not staying at 85% base; it's only 81% now, and in MoP you won't have anything but base mana, unless Blizz for no obvious reason decides on a new definition for 'base mana.'
Actually, there's one obvious reason to have non-base mana: Feral, Guardian, Ret, Prot, and Enhancement. On the other hand, the limited number of spells (and abilities backing them up) may be sufficient to keep those specs in check, even if their mana pools match those of caster specs.
Stella Nov 23rd 2011 5:34PM
I wouldn't panic just yet (if you were feeling so inclined), this is clearly a WiP.
The tooltips for Killing Machine and Maelstrom Weapons still refer too "Rank 2" although there aren't any ranks any more. Also Ignite is now a Mastery but its tooltip doesn't reflect that.
The ones that do seem finished (or more advanced at least) like Warlock look amazing.
Drakkenfyre Nov 23rd 2011 5:39PM
I am hoping the feedback will change their minds. The way they are pulling abilities are terrible.
Basically, if an ability is in another school from your spec, you can't do it. If you are Elemental as a Shaman, you get almost no healing spells. If you are Shadow as a Priest, you get one healing spell.
Paladin abilities, unless you are Holy, you don't heal. You can't toss anything ice-based unless you are Frost (except Cone of Cold and Frost Nova) as a Mage. It looks like Druids are essentially going to be unable to do any healing unless you are Resto. Utility abilities from Shaman such as Purge and Water Breathing have been removed completely.
This makes absolutely no sense with some of the Talent choices. No matter what your spec you will be forced to eventually take a healing or PVP talent.
Animaneth Nov 23rd 2011 6:23PM
"You can't toss anything ice-based unless you are Frost (except Cone of Cold and Frost Nova) as a Mage."
may want to recheck, deep freeze is now trainable by all specs, and the convinient ability shatter (x3 damage to frozen targets) is now available to all specs, and the first tier of the new talents all provide a direct or indirect way to freeze targets.
This is what's keeping me of jumping and protesting, there's no way this can go live as it is, it would be really op. People already cries about frost mages, can you imagine them when they get deep freezed (stun), and then hitted by 4 stacks of arcane blast?
Drakkenfyre Nov 23rd 2011 6:50PM
And with the continued downvoting.
Seriously, people. Look at the list of removed things. MMO-Champion.com has the full "patch notes".
Unless you are a Druid, Death Knight, or Warlock, you are going to get !@#$ed hard, by these changes. Hope the next revision isn't as bad.
Matt Nov 23rd 2011 6:54PM
Definitely want to recheck...
All druids get Rejuv and Healing Touch.
If you are clutch healing just to get a tank to a safe level before using Rebirth, those are all you would want to use anyway. Nourish wouldn't heal enough in a problem situation, you would only get 3x Regrowths, and Lifebloom requires 3 GCDs to get any substantial healing done.
Boobah Nov 23rd 2011 7:43PM
"Basically, if an ability is in another school from your spec, you can't do it. If you are Elemental as a Shaman, you get almost no healing spells. If you are Shadow as a Priest, you get one healing spell."
They told us all this back at Blizzcon. Specifically, they mentioned that non-holy paladins weren't going to have any heals except Flash of Light; they've apparently back tracked on that slightly, they've since added Word of Glory (without cooldown) back into the universal paladin category.
And generally speaking, if today if you're using spells from outside your spec's school, you're doing it wrong anyway; when it does work, it's the sort of thing that gets patched out, because you're probably breaking the intended balance.
"This makes absolutely no sense with some of the Talent choices. No matter what your spec you will be forced to eventually take a healing or PVP talent. "
Handily enough, you're only giving up a couple healing or PVP talents to take it. You're not losing anything.
Although looking through the priest talents, there's only one I wouldn't want on a PvE priest, and that's because very few current encounters root or snare players. All the rest boost the priest's survivability, time on target, DPS, CC, and/or boosts the same for raid/party members. I'm certainly not saying they're all balanced, but currently they don't even all have numbers.
icepyro Nov 23rd 2011 7:57PM
Wait, so the new hybrid tax is decreased healing ability for non healing specs? What a concept!
Seriously, the only healing spells on my bars when I'm in elemental spec on my shaman I will be learning (Healing Surge/Healing Rain). The same can be said about my pally Flash of Light and Word of Glory.
Not sure about the other classes you listed as I don't play them, but yeah. So far this is nothing to be so upset about.
Okay, okay, I admit I hadn't considered losing my healing lasers (chain heal). COME ON BLIZZ, WHAT ARE YOU THINKING!?! (amidoingitrite?)
Drakkenfyre Nov 23rd 2011 8:10PM
You guys are both going on the assumption that someone is standing around, casting abilities outside of their spec for that role in instances.
When you are getting your ass beat as a Shaman or a Priest in a PVP or PVE encounter, and you need a heal, and that heal no longer exists, then you will see.
Hey, enjoy having baseline abilities removed, I guess if they come after Counterspell (Purge already got removed) or Typhoon, you will understand how this sucks.
Specs are supposed to STRENGTHEN or add abilities. Not give you abilities back which have been in the game since release.
Bapo Nov 23rd 2011 8:14PM
My main concern, and its a small one at that, is when I'm low on health as a pally, what am I supposed to do if I'm low on health, and have no hopo / food? What am I? A warrior? (I jest)
I'm on my phone, so I can't check all of the spec specific stuff (won't let me scroll), but as everyone else has stated, this is all in Alpha, so its definately going to be tweaked.
I find it hard to believe they would remove a druids normal rez unless they are resto.
Harvoc Nov 23rd 2011 10:54PM
@ Boobah
Then how is any class a hybrid now? Every spec is essentially walled off from the other two in that there's almost no overlap in their spells. Blizzard is removing baseline and talented abilities and either restricting them to one spec or putting them in as a "talent". The first route ensures that the other two specs effectively lost a spell. The second route means that you need to spend 1 out of 6 talent points to get something that you previously had when something new in the same tier might be more useful or useful in more situations. There's nothing like getting a shiny new toy before having it yanked away to be given to someone else.
ThatGUy Nov 24th 2011 3:57AM
@ Bapo
I know at some point Paladins get an abilitiy (that mimics Crusader, i believe) that when you kill something your next flash of light heals for 300%.
So you will be questing through, killing stuff, spending 1.5 seconds after each fight to heal yourself for 1/3 of your melee'ers caster bar and then go back to killing stuff.
Kinda like you do now.
Also, actually to answer your question...."you'd do the same thing any caster does when he lets himself run out of mana when he needs mana, sit and wait".
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P.S. in response to other peoples comments, I think alot of people here are under the impression these are suppose to be "finished'.
Cus the whole topic says it isnt. I've seen like 3 people in a row complain about them taking something away, but they gave a direct example (prayer of healing) of an ability that doesnt show up on the calculator.
in regards to IF they are indeed -SIMPLIFYING" (not nerfing) healing for non healing hybrid classes, then fine. No one needs it. you heal yourself to help the raid, in pvp combat, and when questing. The former they are adding major abilities to help with, almost every class has some way to buff the raid and increase raid and personal survival (even if it just means self healing so a healer doesnt have to waste mana on you), the last is covered because there is first aid and all you need is a cast or two of your main heal (which would be , say, flash of light in this case) for it. and the middle seems to be the most problematic. But when you are getting shot at by three guys, do you really have time to stack 3 life blooms, cast nourish, healing touch, or Wild growth (an ability you dont have?!) NO. Its fast cast or die really. Now if your team is good, a clever druid can keep himself covered in dots in between dpsing other players to make for a very imbalanced character, which is problematic in PVP as a whole. Thus by changing healing availability to non healers, and keeping it in the form of certian abilities (talents), which they can fine tune individually they can finally restore some balance to pvp.
Either way i've seen enough. I know blizzard knows what they are doing. and havent seen a person complain once that knew what they where talking about.
Harvoc Nov 24th 2011 8:51AM
@ Thatguy
Drakkenfyre and I aren't saying that we're worried that there are some missing spells that are crucial to each spec. We're saying that we dislike how Blizzard is simplifying the difference between each spec's utility. Blizzard is taking away utility talents/baseline spells and putting them into the MoP talents or restricting baseline spells to one spec only. You are only covering healing. What I've been advocating is that Blizzard should have split the current talent trees into two: one that contains talents which help with your role and one that contains utility talents only. First of all, theorycrafters would still be able to theorycraft the first talent tree. Secondly, there would be less confusion and change because the same concept of the current talent trees would be used. Lastly, Blizzard would still accomplish their goal of allowing choice in talents, while preserving the flavor and utility of each spec. If Blizzard still converted talents that help with your role over into specializations but changed talent trees to contain utility talents only instead of using the current system, I'd be ok with that. Quite frankly, if Blizzard took this route, I'd be jumping for joy right now.
andres.dc39 Nov 23rd 2011 5:42PM
Pre-alpha? I wonder how much time this expansion is gonna take to develop. I was expecting it for june or july but this makes me think october or november.
Ilmyrn Nov 23rd 2011 5:51PM
Well, the talents are pre-alpha. That doesn't mean that MoP as a whole is.
dj.clayden Nov 23rd 2011 5:51PM
I think blizzard will do what they can to have it out before autumn. IPeople will be bored as hell of Dragon Soul (which seems like it won't be a hugely long raid, and isn't gated) by the time summer hits. Add in all the issues that summer brings with it and I can't seeing them holding MoP until later than August.