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12-01-2011 @ 8:48PM
The problem I see is completely a matter of scaling. If you need 1-2 tanks, 2-3 healers and 5-7 dps for 10 man, and then 1-2 tanks, 5-7 healers, and 16-19 dps for 25 man, you really can't combine smaller groups more efficiently. Even in a 20 man raid where you can more easily combine those 2 10-man groups, you still have the problem of having too many tanks. If 20 man could use all 2-4 tanks for most fights, great, problem solved, that's wonderful. But otherwise what?
12-01-2011 @ 8:58PM
This is why almost every tank except for high-ranking officer-tanks of guilds has a dps off-spec. Isn't that part of the fun of dual-specs? You can have the fun of tanking or dps'ing, based on the needs of your raid and/or your personal preference. It's one of the best things I love about playing a Death Knight - choosing between 2 very fun and engaging dps roles, while also having another spec to tank.The scaling with dps and healers would be easier to manage in a world with 20man raids though, and since most tanks do have dps off-specs, it wouldn't hurt them that much, either. (Plus, off-spec tanks can still soak up all that tank gear that main-spec tanks don't need or want.)
12-01-2011 @ 9:05PM
Frankly the tank issue is the biggest thing, as a tank I often get tired of pointless dances that force you to use 2 tanks when only one is really needed, like your standard stacking damage or armor debuff. Adding 2 extra tanks to every fight means this kind of thing would have to be in every fight, as there's only so much one can tank that's engaging while also making you feel like you're not just tanking a pointless add because there's not much else you can do.The other issue is that there are simply far more dps players than tanks and healers, as every class can dps and there are no dedicated healing or tanking classes. As a dps the DF or finding a raid spot can be pretty tough as is, imagine if half the raids in the game suddenly needed 4-7 fewer dps players. Tanks and healers essentially stay the same, but the demand for dps drops pretty drastically.
12-01-2011 @ 9:53PM
@PyromelterIt's also a bit screwy that every tank that doesn't happen to be an officer or GM needs to also be a competent DPS or just sit out if they're not needed, no?I certainly agree that a lot of "mechanics" to allow more tanks aren't very well thought out, but the solution is to improve encounter design, rather than assume (or force) every tank to be able to DPS.
12-01-2011 @ 10:25PM
@PyroI think a big problem is if you have 2 tanks who are geared to tanks but need to use their off-spec to fill in as dps for the 25-man raid, their dps will probably be lacking because they have been trying to get avoidance gear instead of dmg stats...If you don't have many dps plate wearers in the smaller 10-mans, it may not be a big of an issue, but it seems it would be easier for a guild to just grab 2 new guys who main dps :( /twocents
12-02-2011 @ 12:39AM
Hell, I am an officer tank, and I have to have a functional dps set because despite having dps sets, we have 3 officer tanks (in part due to previously running 3 ten mans) and so someone still must be something else. Never mind all of our co-tanks who are either benched, or having to come as something else.Unfortunately, the reality is that 5 up to 10 scales well, and everything past that doesn't. Dual specs mitigate the issue, but even current raids have a lot of 1 tank fights, requiring people to swap. Bliz has essentially made it mandatory to have a somewhat up-to-par offspec for one (really two) or more people, even in ten mans.That said, on a guild organizational level, I agree that 20's would be easier to field than 25's.
12-02-2011 @ 4:34AM
Logan:Yes it is screwy, which is again why 20-main raiding makes more sense than 25-man.My point about tank-officers is that the only tanks that I've ever seen that were tank-tank specced were senior officers of guilds, because they are ALWAYS going to tank, and anyone who basically isn't running a raid would never be guaranteed that main tank spot.In a 20-man system, you'd likely have more tanks in general, and more people specced tank-tank, compared to what we have now.People who complain about dps spots are missing the boat. DPS spots are by far the easiest to fill in 25-man raiding, and it's very easy to get opportunities for dps spots in even very good guilds. This is because the ratio of tanks to dps is far lower in 25man raiding. Rossi I think even talked about this before - the hardest raid spot to obtain in all of wow is a tanking position in a 25-man raid."Unfortunately, the reality is that 5 up to 10 scales well, and everything past that doesn't."Agreed, but 25-man exacerbates the scaling far worse than 20-man raids do. The ratio stays more even in 20mans. Also, had blizzard gone with a 10-20 model, they could have built the raids from the ground up to require the same ratio of tanks from the start.The other point is one that many others have made, which is that a guild with two solid 10man teams can scale up to 20man much easier than they can to 25man.
12-02-2011 @ 4:41AM
Just wanted to single this out for response:"As a dps the DF or finding a raid spot can be pretty tough as is, imagine if half the raids in the game suddenly needed 4-7 fewer dps players. Tanks and healers essentially stay the same, but the demand for dps drops pretty drastically."I think you are confusing 5man heroics for raid spots. Yes, in a 5-man heroic world, dps will have to wait quite a bit. But in 25man raids, the ratio reverses for tanks and dps... it's usually easy to find decent tanks for 25 mans, but harder to fill out dps spots. It tends to be most annoying to fill out healer spots (blech can't tell you how many pug/gdkp raids I ran where we are waiting forever for healers). In a 20man raid, it's not likely there would be 3-4 tanks per encounter, so the number of tanks would still be lower. All 20man raiding does is drop the need for a healer and likely 4 dps, and this actually can make bigger raiding better as patch cycles go along, because you'd be amazed at how much less of a hassle it is to organize 20 people versus 25.Also, in most guilds, aren't there probably 4 dps or more that the rest of the dps are carrying? Hell there've been certain times where me and like 2 other people are carrying the other 15 dps.Final point: with 20man raids, you might get more guilds that do more 10mans to upscale to that level, assuming they have 2 solid 10 man teams. Currently this is much more difficult with a 25 man raid type as the other spots would have to come from less-than-normal raiders, or pugs, or from a recruitment drive, which can be a big headache for guild leadership.
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