The Care and Feeding of Warriors: Talents in Mists of Pandaria
by Matthew Rossi 
Dec 3rd 2011 at 2:00PM
Last week, we talked about the Mists of Pandaria talent calculator and the class and spec abilities it reveals. This week, we'll be discussing the new talents and their general design philosophy.
One of the design changes for Mists that I've found compelling is the removal of "idiot talents." These are the talents that you simply have to take. A protection warrior without Bastion of Defense isn't really a prot warrior; at the very least, he or she is a bad prot warrior. Now, while I applaud the intent of the talent changes, that doesn't mean I love each and every one of them. However, since it's still patch 4.3 and we won't see these talents in game until patch 5.0 at the earliest, it's hardly time to panic (or applaud, for that matter).
These talents are divided into six tiers, one at each 15 levels from 15 to 90. Three talents are available at each tier, meaning that you can take any one of each three per tier for a grand total of six talents at level 90. Unlike current talent specializations, none of these talents are restricted to a role; an arms or fury warrior can take Shockwave, for instance, or a protection warrior could take Bladestorm.
Oh, come on. Tell me you've never wanted to pop Bladestorm while tanking.
Tiers for talents
Rather than limit talent choices by specialization, the new talent choices are based on specific options. For example, the first talent tier at level 15 is all based around Charge, which is becoming the fundamental travel ability of all three warrior specs in Mists. This approach, giving talents that are more universally broad in their application, has pros and cons. One of the things I find compelling about this approach is its ability to tailor talent choices to one's own playstyle.
The three talent choices here, Juggernaut (a 12-second Charge instead of a 20-second cooldown), Double Time (allowing you to charge twice before the cooldown) and Warbringer (Charge now roots the target for 5 seconds) are all designed to make Charge function the way you want it to. I can imagine a use for any of these talents for whatever role you happen to be playing.
The next tier, the survival talent tier, illustrates one of the cons to the current design in that some of these talent tiers are at this moment not as compelling as I'd like. Having Enraged Regeneration as a talent instead of a class ability is fine, but compared to Second Wind (which combines modern Second Wind with modern Blood Craze) and especially the version of Impending Victory, they're all self-heal abilities ... which is kind of bland. (I'm also trying to decide if I would rather have a 30% heal over 10 seconds or a 10% instant heal every 30 seconds, and I'm leaning towards the latter.) Granted, a self-heal is the easiest thing to justify, but a temporary immunity or even a variation of current abilities like Die by the Sword might have been good here, or a magic resistance ability for variety.
The level 45 tier was called the CC tier at BlizzCon, but it's not really apt. The three talents listed are all fine talents. Throwdown and Piercing Howl work pretty much how you remember them, while Cripple effectively makes Hamstring apply by your Rend ticks and auto-attacks. There's nothing really wrong with these abilities, but they're not true CC. There's a 5-second stun and two snares, one an AoE, the other single-target but not requiring any effort to apply.
It would have been nice for the CC tier to have an actual PvE-focused CC instead of three abilities mostly useful for PvP or kiting. Something as simple as an Impaling Throw that uses your weapon to root someone by pinning them to the ground or walls or something. I mean, we can silence people by throwing weapons at them -- why not?
At level 60, we see three talents aimed at silence or interruption effects. Gag Order and Rude Interruption return more or less unchanged, joined by Disrupting Shout. Disrupting Shout is an AoE interrupt that hits everything in 10 yards and locks out any casting in the same school for 4 seconds. I like to call it what every PvP warrior has ever wanted. But it's also probably a solid option for tanks that prefer charging into a pack to trying to silence a caster on a pull.
Meanwhile, the level 75 talents are all aimed around rage. We mentioned last week that Enrage effects will be purely about rage generation, and these three talents are all aimed at different ways to manage that. Deadly Calm will make HS and Cleave cost no rage. Death Wish will place you in an enraged state and also will increase your rage generation from damage taken. And Bull Rush will enrage you when you charge or intervene. With combat now more about rage-generation attacks that allow you to spend rage later, these abilities could serve either a tank who needs or wants more rage for the larger rage cost cooldowns like Shield Block as well as a DPSer. I'm still sad to see Death Wish go from a pure DPS cooldown in this fashion.
Finally, at level 90 we get the big three talents, the iconic ones that deal damage and bring flavor to the class ... and two of them are talents you currently have and that you'll lose for five levels, which is kind of weird. I'm not opposed to Bladestorm and Shockwave being big-ticket talents, and I love Avatar, at least in theory. I like the stated goal of making each talent give you the feel of the blademaster, tauren chieftain or mountain king from WC III. That said, it's still strange to contemplate losing two of the most signature warrior talents in the current game for five levels once Mists drops. I do love the idea of being able to go arms and take Shockwave for a heavy add fight or Avatar for a single-target fight.
What will these talents mean?
Of course, it's too soon to know what the final forms of these tiered talents will be, although considering how far along the Mists talent calculator is, there's certainly been significant work done already. My misgivings on the survival and CC tiers aside, what I really do love about this talent scheme is the ability to take a talent spec based on what you want to do with it. It's easy to imagine an arms spec designed around messing with groups, and if we get the ability to switch talents on the fly (mentioned at BlizzCon), you could switch to a single-target spec for DPSing a boss fairly easily.
I certainly feel that there are some odd artifacts of this redesign. There's not a lot of new here, which really isn't that surprising considering we're only going five levels. More difficult for me to grasp is the idea of having to wait five levels to get back talents I'm used to having a lot earlier. I'm spoiled by Shockwave tanking.
Next week, leveling a warrior.
At the center of the fury of battle stand the warriors: protection, arms and fury. Check out more strategies and tips especially for warriors, including Cataclysm 101 for DPS warriors, a guide to new reputation gear for warriors, and a look back at six years of warrior trends.
Filed under: Warrior, Analysis / Opinion, (Warrior) The Care and Feeding of Warriors, Mists of Pandaria
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 1)
nymrohd Dec 3rd 2011 2:20PM
I just have to agree with the feeling of losing abilities. I'd have hoped that the last tier would be all new abilities myself for all classes.
Shrikesnest Dec 3rd 2011 2:20PM
A couple of thoughts:
- I've heard a lot of complaining about how Warbringer is changing, but a lot of the complaints don't seem to realize that the new Double Time talent is essentially the old Warbringer; you'll just be using Charge twice instead of Charge followed by Intercept. Obviously it's not the exact same, and the mechanics (or at least the wording) of that ability are sort of clunky anyway. I expect it to change to "When activated, your next Charge does not trigger a cooldown."
- I didn't see a lot in the way of abilities that generate rage; as far as I could tell it's just Mortal Strike, Shield Slam or Bloodthirst plus your shouts. At first blush, it seems overpowered to me. If a strike that used to cost 20 rage now generates 10 rage, that's the equivalent of a talented shout every three GCDs. That's an extra heroic strike during every rotation. Likewise, I'm very sad to see Deadly Calm change. Burning it during an Execute phase is currently one of life's little joys. I suppose it's at least way more useful than Inner Rage... (NOTE: Of course all of this is predicated on how the new Enrage mechanics work)
I guess it's just too hard for me to visualize how rage generation is changing without seeing it in action. Effects that currently directly increase our damage will now be increasing our rage generation, which can *indirectly* increase damage dealt through Heroic Strike and Cleave, EXCEPT in situations where you're constantly rage-capped anyway. This whole thing could get really messy... and we've already got the weirdest sort of resource mechanic to begin with.
minduim Dec 3rd 2011 4:10PM
"[attacking skills that generate rage instead of consuming] At first blush, it seems overpowered to me."
Remember that Colossus Smash will cost 80 rage (that must "solve" the problem for Arms, don't remember now if Fury will have any rage dump of that size).
Robare Dec 3rd 2011 3:13PM
Every time we hit the X.0 patches there are complaints about class balance until the new expansion. The argument is always given that it's not a time to worry about balance and that we should be more concerned with seeing how our new mechanics work. This time around with several specs losing signature abilities to be regained at level 90 it seems it will be especially frustrating for those who still want to run some content that last week or two. That is, if things don't change. Perhaps not the biggest deal, but it is like being forced to take a vacation from what you like to do in the game (assuming you are severely gimped) and having to simply wait until you are even allowed to start leveling towards getting back to it.
Natsumi Dec 3rd 2011 3:58PM
1) For Arms and Protection, Cripple is an AE snare that re-applies itself thanks to Blood and Thunder. If you read the description carefully you'll see that it applies Hamstring on Rend tics, Blood and Thunder still spreads Rend, thus making Cripple much better than Piercing Howl for both specs. In addition it's not a Shout so you can't be silenced out of it.
2) Enraged Regeneration has never really been all that effective, for me at least, in a clutch situation, it just takes too long to get any kind of health benefit out of it, even with Rallying Cry up. I usually end up dying before I can get ER to activate. Changing VR to an on demand 30 sec CD works much better for those types of situations (just ask Blood DKs with Rune Tap) especially when combined with RC. Fury's mileage may vary, but for me Enraged Regeneration is only useful when at about half health.
3) Of course we can silence people by throwing our weapons, we just hit them in the mouth with it. You try talking after being hit it the face with a 40 pound Mace/Axe/Sword.
4) I'd probably still take Avatar over the other level 90 Talents, even on heavy add fights. I'd actually rely on Berserker Stance for the adds for the AE boost, then back to Battle Stance for the Boss while popping Avatar as soon as possible, that 1 minute CD is going to be sweet.
Blayze Dec 3rd 2011 4:40PM
I think I'll be going out of my way to prevent myself from having any more buttons I need to press.
Boobah Dec 3rd 2011 6:08PM
Silence will stop Blood & Thunder just as well as it does shouts, because if you're silenced you can't Thunderclap, either. It's all noise making, not just the vocal kind.
Natsumi Dec 4th 2011 11:35AM
@boobah
Yes, but it's not completely prevented by silences, Rend can still be used while silenced.
Dhoum Dec 5th 2011 10:27PM
40- pound weapon? Here's something to try: find an 8-pound sledgehammer and swing it in one hand like you were trying to attack something with it. Let me know how that works out for you. I don't care how much strength is on your armor, there's a reason historical weapons almost never broke five pounds.
vocenoctum Dec 3rd 2011 4:23PM
Back in Wrath, I forgot to change spec once and did the first pull as Arms in my tank gear. You want snap agro? Bladestorm gives you that! :)
dominicbrtn Dec 3rd 2011 5:05PM
the thing i worry the most about..... and im looking far into the future here... is that with these new talent trees getting a new talent every 15 levels is fine. But when 6.0 hits we will probably only gain 5 levels again and we will want some new be all and end all talent at the end of the talent tree, so number one hypothetically will we get one... i myself doubt it, the level 90 will just move to level 95 and we may just get lucky and have some kind of filler like bastion of defense, and a whole new overhaul of the talent trees will be here before we know it
Boobah Dec 3rd 2011 6:13PM
Or we just don't get a new tier of talents, but each class and/or spec gets a nifty new ability at the next level cap.
koolguyry Dec 3rd 2011 5:24PM
Mr. Rossi I must go out there and say this: That is one badass pic of a worgen war you got there.
Finnicks Dec 3rd 2011 6:54PM
It reminds me of something.
The first thing I can think of is the monster from Cloverfield.
But I don't think that's it, exactly. What does this remind me of!?
Mike Dec 4th 2011 11:20AM
It kinda makes me think of the Predator.
koolguyry Dec 3rd 2011 5:25PM
your* not "of a". wasn't thinking :P
songouki Dec 4th 2011 7:07AM
I'd like to see the following happen to the new talents...
Tier 1:
Instead of a root on Warbringer I'd rather see this talent allow Charge to BREAK roots again. I miss that so much, and besides it seems like a lot of classes are getting some ridiculous roots in MoP, we're going to need something like this to avoid being "rooted to death".
Tier 2:
I think Impending Victory should be a regular ability that we can use as a rage "finisher". Last Stand should go back to being a 3 minute cooldown survival ability (and bring back Rallying Cry too), since in the current set up you would be bad to use Last Stand instead of Shield Block... mana sponge versus mitgation, mitgation almost always wins. Besides that, in almost every scenario I want to use Last Stand when I need it not just to dump rage. Having Impending Victory as a finisher would instead give you a meaningful choice between mitigation and self-healing. DPS specs would also having a meaningful choice in using it as well (especially in PvP). They could maybe replace the talent with the old Field Dressing talent (which I'm really going to miss for soloing stuff).
Tier 3:
Cripple is too good and seems to completely overshadow Piercing Howl for Arms and Prot, making PH only for Fury which seems kind of screwy. I'd much rather see an aoe knockback for Warriors here instead of Cripple or Piercing Howl (maybe bake Cripple into the Piercing Howl talent?). That would give us three different types of control: a stun, an aoe daze, and a knockback. It would make this tier much more synergetic.
Tier 4:
I like this tier and think it gives us meaningful choices.
Tier 5:
On the other hand, this tier is a mess and they need to go back and rework it. Deadly Calm is probably the only way you'll ever see Warriors using HS or Cleave in the new rage model, they're just pointless when using them will prevent you from using a rage finisher for bigger damage.
Death Wish is just completely broken as it's envisioned here, who are they aiming this talent at?! DPS will likely be constantly enraged since they only need to average 1 crit per 10 seconds to stay enraged in the new model and prot would never take this talent due to the increased damage taken. Not to mention we still have Berserker Rage which is basically the same thing but on a 30 second cooldown (but lost the extra rage from damage component).
As for Bull Rush, there are some deeper problems with this if you take a good look at the new rage generation/finisher design they're pushing in MoP. Prot Warriors are going to want as much rage as possible as fast as possible so they can keep mitigation up as much as possible, this means I think you may see Warriors "ping ponging" around in between rage generators... Intervene out to Charge back in, Heroic Leap out to Charge back in, run out of range to Charge back in... you get the idea. Putting Enrage on a Charge/Intervene is just enticing this behavior even more. Especially seeing as it looks like Prot Warriors will also need crits in order to get Enraged (instead of evading like the current design), meaning we would almost never see it otherwise. I think Bull Rush should instead remove the minimum range on Charge, in addition to granting the Enrage mechanic. That would completely remove the desire for Warriors to "ping pong".
Tier 6:
Cool tier on paper, bad tier in design. Losing two core abilities until the new max level is just bad design. Giving these abilities to other specs though is cool. HOWEVER, there's almost no choice here: Shockwave is for aoe control, Bladestorm is for aoe damage, and Avatar is for single target damage. This removes and real choice from this tier and will be more a burden to Warriors than anything. We will have to constantly swap the talents in this tier around for trash and bosses. That's not fun.
Overall, I'm sad to see losing current abilities just so they can become talents. I see it as making us weaker, no stronger. That's kind of messed up.
Intercept gone so we can choose to replicate how we used it with Double Time if we want, AND they're increasing the cooldown on Charge as well... /sigh. Enraged Regeneration, talent now. Concussion Blow, gone... you can take Throwdown though if you want, but still a loss. Now more having both Piercing Howl and Throwdown for Arms PvP anymore either. Death Wish becomes a crappy talent instead of a "core" Fury ability. Deadly Calm replaces Inner Rage. Losing Bladestorm and Shockwave until the new max level. Not to mention all the abilities we just flat out lost (such as Vigilance, Vengeance, Rallying Cry, Challenging Shout, Shield Slam no longer dispelling, Colossus Smash only for Arms, spell damage reduction for prot, hold the line, revenge hitting an extra target, thunderstruck, safeguard, Field Dressing, extra damage for Shield Slam, and so on).
I also want to say that I definitely agree with you about a Warrior CC ability, we're looooong overdue for one. I think it should be a new ability though and not a talent. I made a couple of suggestions in Blizz forums for this, such as either Impale (Throw a weapon at your target pinning them to the ground. Only works on targets with two legs... or less) *or* Fixate (Intimidate an opponent, causing them to cower in place. Only works on humanoids, beasts, and dragonkin). Lasts 45 seconds, 30 second cooldown, with a 2 second "cast" (giving people time to disarm, stun, or CC us to counter it in PvP).