Officers' Quarters: Friends and family
by Scott Andrews 
Dec 5th 2011 at 9:00AM
Many raiding guilds have a rank called Friends and Family that indicates someone who is just that, rather than an active raider. Having such members not only broadens the community, it also improves the social aspect of a guild. But as we all know, friends and family can also be a headache sometimes. This week, I'm featuring two emails: one about friend drama, another about family drama.
Scott,
Recently I transferred servers and joined a new guild to get a fresh start after a 3 month break from the game. My goal upon arriving at my new server was to find the right guild, I spent weeks searching for the perfect guild (it would be only my 3rd guild in 6 years) a place that had a little of everything. After much searching I found that guild. It was a community, a family that does tons of things together, a place that isn't only about the progression but about doing things together. It's an atmosphere I love.
Shortly after joining the guild, two long time friends from my previous guild returned to the game. I have become very close with these two people and enjoy playing with them, so I convinced them to server transfer. These friends had been hardcore raiders since vanilla and GM and officer of our previous guild before taking break. I had some reservations about them joining my new home because I knew their reactions from lack of power (due to a failed guild merger) but they are really nice people and I really wanted to play with them again.
A week or so after they joined the complaining started.
It's not outright griping but a passive aggressive wall they seem to have against the guild. To give a few ideas of what I am dealing with:Hi, RAAHP. It's hard not to picture you six inches high, translucent, and wearing a white robe when you say that.I am worried, I see the outcome. My friends are going to leave the guild for their incorrect assumptions and resistance towards the guilds atmosphere and style. I am going to be caught in the middle, because they are going to feel I should side with them and I can't because they are wrong. I have tried several approaches from subtle hinting and guiding to get them to embrace the guilds atmosphere and set ways and to outright saying your perceiving something wrong. Nothing is getting through to them. They don't seem to realize that the guild leadership in this guild is the strongest most cohesive group they will find in all of WoW. This guild has the stuff together and it shows, but they just don't see it.
- Both long time friends complain that they are snubbed and overlooked for raids. There is no snubbing going on however -- our guild utilizes a very detailed and efficient events system and it is used exclusively for non progression raid events. The long time friends do not make use of this tool and complain they are not liked because they are never included in things.
- They want to raid progression but have not taken the necessary steps to discuss their inclusion in one of the three raid groups rotations that is outlined in detail. Then complain they don't get invited.
I don't want to loose two long times friends over this, but I really don't want to leave my new guild either it may be the best I have been in ever.
Help me Obi-Scott-Kenobi you're my only hope.
Sincerely,
Rock and a Hard Place
Situations like this often happen when players join a guild to play with friends rather than because they like what the guild has to offer. For this reason, they can sometimes struggle to feel comfortable with the new environment. To me, it simply sounds like these friends aren't a good fit for your guild's culture.
That's not your fault, and you shouldn't blame yourself. I actually think you need to distance yourself from the problem. You've done what you can to help them understand how things work. It's not your job to "assimilate" them by force.
Leave it be, and let them decide for themselves what they want to do. You're happy and you're staying where you are, so you don't have any more decisions to make.
The next time they complain to you, I suggest simply saying that you already explained how to get involved and it's their choice whether or not to do so. Don't turn it into an argument, but don't falsely sympathize with them either by saying it's the guild's fault when it's not. Just stay neutral on the issue.
Over time, they'll either adjust or they won't. The only way you can lose them as friends, the way I see it, is if you put yourself in the middle of this whole mess so that they blame you for everything.
Brother against brother
Hi Scott,Hi, AGM. Family issues are always a challenge.
I've been a firm reader of your blog for quite a while now and am a Guild Leader myself who has to deal with many dramas mostly with good success. However the one issue which I do face is a complicated one.
My Brother is also in my Guild, and with some bias he received an Officership a long time ago. Unfortunately due to his Blood Connection to me he seems to be of the opinion that he runs the guild, and when I'm not around to see it, he has no problem voicing this fact. I've tried many things to try and pull him into line and keep him from having thoughts above his post. I've previously demoted him for a 2 week period to cool off after an abuse of his officer powers. And More recently he has faced a ban from Raiding for 2 weeks in an effort to make him realise he cannot keep acting this way.
What can i possibly do to make him realise that as far as the game is concerned, he is a class leader like the other class leaders and is not above them or in any way attributed to the Guild Mastership.
Please help me Scott!
Thanks,
Apocalyptic GM
The Drama Mamas wrote a column a while back about a very similar issue. It's not specific to family members, but you might find the advice relevant to your situation.
I wish you had provided some specific examples so I could gauge how severe the problem is. If he's actively driving people out of the guild with this behavior or causing drama over it, then that's something that has to stop. But if he's just bragging or showing off, it's not quite as serious. Either way, the fact that he won't cut it out after you've specifically asked him to is disrespectful, not just as his guild leader but as his brother.
In this case, I think the only thing that will get through to him is a permanent demotion the next time this issue comes up. He's already been warned and punished -- twice! If that hasn't done the trick, then nothing else short of stripping him of his rank will suffice. Clearly, promoting him in the first place was a mistake, and undoing that error can only help at this point.
If demotion isn't enough to curb this behavior, then you'll have no recourse but to ask him to leave the guild entirely. It's harsh, but he can't say you didn't warn him.
/salute
Recently, Officers' Quarters has examined how strong new leadership can create a guild turnaround, the pitfalls of promising more than you can deliver, and lessons learned from Scott's own guild demise. Send your own guild-related questions and suggestions to scott@wowinsider.com.
Filed under: Officers' Quarters (Guild Leadership)
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 2)
Jardinsky Dec 5th 2011 10:13AM
The first letter writer used "loose" when he meant "lose"; his argument is invalid.
Bobby Earl Dec 5th 2011 5:16PM
Agreed.
mibu.work1 Dec 5th 2011 10:21AM
Heh, I've had a recent guild breakup where my gf was the guild leader, adn I was 2nd in command. I'm a little worried I was doing the same as the brother in the 2nd e-mail but I'm not sure.
Bobby Earl Dec 5th 2011 5:17PM
If you think you might have been, you were.
loli.gigis Dec 5th 2011 10:36AM
For one just because the first guy and his friends are not in the same guild doesn't mean they can't play together. Maybe he should suggest if they are really unhappy with the current guild then they should find one that they would be happy in. Tell them that their happiness with what guild they are in matters but make sure that you tell them that you are not leaving your current guild. I had this similar issue come up with my husband, he didn't really like the guild we joined but I did. So he eventually started looking for a new guild now he is in one he really enjoys (and I often join them for raiding and such) and i am still in the guild that I enjoy.
The second one needs to pull aside his brother in real life and talk to him. This pretty much sounds like normal brother issues. He should also calmly explain that if they can't get past these issues then it might be time for his brother to make his own guild. Be prepared though that if there is a split, guild members might go with him. It's nothing personal but when there is announcement of his leaving as there should be (don't be hushed about it, be open about what is happening) also tell guild members that if they would like to follow them just to send you a whisper or message and that you understand that they might want to leave.
rapsam2003 Dec 5th 2011 1:09PM
If the brother is being all "It's basically my guild cuz my brother made it, and I'm the boss when he's gone", then I find it hard to believe that the majority of the guild will follow him. No one likes a jerk who lords his position (or in this case, relationship to the GM) over everyone.
loli.gigis Dec 5th 2011 1:49PM
I never said the majority would leave. But there will most likely be one or two members that will leave as well. I said not to be surprised if anyone wanted to leave with him and to be civil about it as well by letting members know they only have to send a tell and that he should understand. Even if the majority thinks he is a jerk there is likely to be a couple of people who like him and may even egg him on behind the scenes.
Quark1020 Dec 5th 2011 6:19PM
I've seen it happen: one person leaves, or gets booted (even if its just idle character cleaning) and someone else leaves. I mainly ignore them, since most of the time I have no idea who they are. Not to mention I'm of the opinion people should go find greener pastures if they are unhappy where they are, in game or otherwise. Granted, I've never been in a position of power in a guild, and have declined those times I've been offered, so I never had a need to know.
LizaMachete Dec 5th 2011 12:25PM
Back in the vanilla days of WoW when I was in a casual-but-consistant MC raiding guild, we had one priest who often would let his son play for him. His son was 10 or 11, and really didn't know the game nor did he ever seem to want to take instructions or learn from the team. In the beginning, the father would play primarily, and if his son took over he only let him for trash, and would warn us first.
However, eventually it got to the point where this priest would show up for a raid, and from start to finish it was the son. We wouldn't even know until we realized the targets he was assigned to heal were dying immediately and we looked at healing meters. We ended up kicking him from a couple raids, which ended up making the father mad at us for making his son upset.
I know the guild leaders tried their hardest to mend things, since when it was the dad playing he was one of our best priests (which were FAR more valuable as healers in pre-BC wow; shamans & druids were good off-healers but not as good for main, and we were horde with no access to paladins). As a compromise the son started playing on his own character (a warrior) so they could play together separately, but even that would cause issues on certain bosses. we made it work for the sake of the dad, but it was still rough most of the time. I don't remember how it all ended (I wasn't an officer at the time and didn't have to deal with issues like that directly), but I'm fairly sure it didn't involve a happy resolution that made everyone involved satisfied. Just more drama.
In short: If you have a guild member who insists on their VERY young child raiding with you... DON'T.
DarkWalker Dec 5th 2011 11:33AM
The first one is exactly why I long for being able to join multiple guilds at a time. Our social lives (and most social sites such as Facebook or Google+) are organized around multiple groups; I don't need to leave my family's group or my current friendships (or to drag them with me) in order to get involved with a hobby group, either in real life or in social sites. On the other hand, In WoW (and any other game with a single guild per character limitation), if I'm part of a RP guild, I have to leave it (and, in a way, distance myself from whichever friends I have in the RP guild) in order to get into a raiding guild.
Amy Schley Dec 5th 2011 11:55AM
I've been going through a bit of this in my guild. I have a pair of IRL friends who are constantly guild hopping to find a raiding guild. Before seeing them in action, I was willing to entertain the possibility that the raiding guilds on our RP, non-progression med pop server were the reason they couldn't find a home. I made the mistake of inviting them into my large social guild. /shudder
Anyone who has been in 5+ guilds should be thought of as someone who has 5+ marriages. Yes, it's theoretically possible that all that churn wasn't their fault, but as the saying goes, "The only consistent thing about all your dysfunctional relationships is you." People who are constantly looking for someone who will put up with them tend to be difficult to put up with.
Piper Dec 5th 2011 12:21PM
:chuckle: "Anyone who has been in 5+ guilds should be thought of as someone who has 5+ marriages."
Another way of putting this is, would you refuse to work with them because they had have half-a-dozen other jobs in their life or 500 other coworkers?
Making the association of guilds and marriage is doing yourself a disservice. Guilds are volunteer organizations whether for social purposes or for goal-related purposes (pvp, raiding, etc). People come and go all the time. If someone is a good fit for you at the time, then great. If not, then that's ok. When you start inflating the importance of being in the guild then you are setting the grounds for future drama when some view the guild as a serious commitment and most will view it as a casual date.
shotiechan Dec 5th 2011 12:30PM
@Amy
I've played since the game's launch and I've definitely been in more than 5 guilds-guilds rarely seem to last longer than a year, many don't make it longer than six months, and sometimes you cannot help it when guild leadership implodes or people get burnt out and leave, etc. I've left lots of guilds because the leadership was poor. Only in two cases did I leave due to personal issues, and in both of those cases, I was an officer and had a major disagreement with the way GMs were handling things.
Every other time, it was because leadership quit, or seemed corrupted after awhile, or because raiders stopped raiding and I wanted to raid, etc. It had little to do with me on any kind of personal level at all, just a "I want to raid, and the guild isn't really raiding anymore, and all the people I like quit out of boredom or to play another MMO that just came out."
My long-winded point is, there are plenty of people who have legitimate reasons to cycle guilds, and it should not automatically be a factor in being wary of a player. Things happen, people move on, guilds dissolve or explode, and frequently, this has very little to do with the player in question.
Amy Schley Dec 5th 2011 12:51PM
@Piper. WoW has been around for seven years. As a manager, I would be very leery of hiring someone who had 5+ jobs on the resume since November 2004. Yes, there can be good reasons for that much bouncing around, but it's also possible that they are a prima donna who can't get along with other people or a slacker who does as little as possible until someone finally fires their lazy rear or their guild/store goes out of business.
I'll admit I have not had much guild experience myself, particularly in how they can grow and die within a year. The guilds I've either been in or applied to be in were multi-year, well-run and long established guilds, so it may not be fair to judge other guilds by those standards.
I will stand by my sentiment that if someone is repeatedly joining a guild, becoming a valuable member of the raiding team, and then leaving because "the guild leader's a moron!" or "they don't listen to me!", the problem is more likely to be the person and not all the guilds on a server ...
loli.gigis Dec 5th 2011 1:02PM
The only thing that I would think about someone who has been in a lot of guilds is that they probably don't take the time to really think about the guild they are getting themselves into. That's not a crime, many people join guilds to see if they are a good fit only to leave a few days/weeks later. That is more like going on a couple of dates then a marriage if you want to make an analogy.
shotiechan Dec 5th 2011 8:16PM
"I will stand by my sentiment that if someone is repeatedly joining a guild, becoming a valuable member of the raiding team, and then leaving because "the guild leader's a moron!" or "they don't listen to me!", the problem is more likely to be the person and not all the guilds on a server ..."
That's true, though a bit different than the initial generalized "if someone has been in more than 5 guilds..." comment, when there are plenty of valid reasons a person might choose to leave a guild. Shoot, the first piece of advice frequently offered to anyone with a serious enough problem in their guild is, "find a new guild".
This really is a thing that should be done on a case-by-case basis.
shotiechan Dec 5th 2011 12:26PM
The Brother in that second letter shouldn't be an officer at all. Does he even actually contribute anything to the guild, or does he just throw his power around? I'm guessing he doesn't really add much or do much, in which case, he should definitely not be an officer on top of everything else.
It sounds like Brother needs to find his own guild, and stop trying to railroad his sibling's.
GhostWhoWalks Dec 5th 2011 1:52PM
Rock and a Hard Place needs to give his a friends a friendly smack upside the head. Let me see if they understand this correctly: they can't be bothered to follow guild procedure to get raiding spots and then complain that they don't get raiding spots? Tell them that if they want to benefit from being with the guild, they have to actually make the effort to qualify for such benefits. Do they want spots in the non-progression raids? Use the event calender! Do they want spots in the progression raids? Have they tried, uh, asking to be included? Have they tried running a dungeon with the people in charge of the raids to demonstrate their skills? Tell your friends that they need to do some of these things if they want to get results, and to stop complaining until they have something legitimate to complain about.
Apocalyptic GM actually has the easier case here: his brother is being irresponsible and needs to suffer the consequences of his behavior. Demote him, semi-permanently. I say "semi" because you want to leave the option open for him to redeem himself if he straightens out his act.
RAAHP Dec 5th 2011 2:55PM
I have actually done this. It seems to be working.
The whole issue really stems from the fact the two friends have 0 power in the guild. They are new, have not even completed the trial phase yet, I have and love the guild. They have been GM's, raid leaders, or officers for most of the last 7 years so they really struggle with being one of the regular folk, which breeds the complaining. There is always this feeling in the air that thy wouldn't do it this way or why do I have to do that it's dumb, I would't ask someone to do that.
I have learned a lot about these two friends in the past few weeks. They are wonderful people, great to play with and general good company but as far as WoW goes they are out for their own fulfillment first and not the good of a group or guild.
scorcherbrennan Dec 5th 2011 2:17PM
Don't kick your brother from your guild, no matter how he behaves.
When something goes bad in "Real" life its your family who you need too look too,
not some fake internet friends!
I'm sorry scott but that was bad advice.