Officers' Quarters: Members turned poachers
by Scott Andrews 
Dec 12th 2011 at 9:00AM
It's bad enough for an officer when you start losing core raiders. As any long-time officer can tell you, though, things can always go from bad to worse. This week, a guild leader falls victim to a member's alt guild that suddenly turns into anything but.
Hey Scott--
We lost three of our core raiders yesterday, and may be losing more.
The girlfriend of the Raider Leader/MT in our casual 10m decided to start an "alt" guild. Not a big deal in its own right, myself and the other GM were a bit concerned about her underlying intentions; she'd been a core raider up until about three weeks prior to her founding this new guild. Myself and the other GM are not sure why the girlfriend stopped raiding with us; it was a choice of hers, and when we inquired as to whether everything was all right, we were always assured it was.
Co-GM and I noticed that to start her alt-guild, she'd recruited several members from our guild: mostly alts, but what concerned us was the handful of mains that left us to join the alt guild. Slightly annoyed that we, the leadership, hadn't been notified of her intentions, we spoke amongst ourselves with how to best handle this; if it's truly an alt guild, we should not have to worry about our ranks thinning. We weren't going to reprimand her, demote her, or remove her remaining character from the guild. We're not like that. She, along with her boyfriend, had been kind and helpful in the past.
Late the other night, I saw that the boyfriend, along with the another core raid dps who I'd been particularly close with, had left the guild to join up with the girlfriend's alt guild. I was crushed.
I did a quick /who to see if the boyfriend was on; he was and I asked why he'd left without saying anything. He pointed me to my main's mailbox where he explained that he was essentially threatened by his girlfriend: move his characters from our guild to hers, or else. He stated that he didn't want to create "RL drama" from things happening in-game, which I totally respect.
After all of that, I'm left wondering what I and the other GM should do moving forward. There may be a potential to lose more of our core members, as they have ties to people in both our guild and the "not-looking-so-much-like-an-alt-guild" guild. In the end, I want our people to have fun; if they aren't having fun with us, there may be a better fit out there. At the same time, I am confident saying we have an awesome guild, but I believe there will continue to be a concerted effort on behalf of the girlfriend to poach members from our ranks.
Do I tell people that if they'd like to go, they should go? Should I try to dig a lot deeper with the boyfriend/girlfriend to figure out if there were larger issues that lead to the defection, since thus far it's provided me with little insight? By no means are we a bleeding-edge content guild, but we are an extremely helpful, friendly and positive guild, which is an awesome environment to be in. Part of this feels like she's almost being vindictive about something, but for the life of me I can't think of what that something might be. Obviously, there's more to this story, but I'm trying to stay impartial and non-judgemental as I write this out in the hopes of getting some solid advice, and for the benefit of the progress of our guild.
Any advice would be appreciated.
Best,
-- Exodus Now
Hi, Exodus. You won't discover the key to this mystery by asking the girlfriend or your former raid leader. They have some rather compelling reasons to be dishonest with you at this point. If you want to find out what's really going on, you should ask the other people who took their mains out of your guild. They are much more likely to tell you what's really at the root of this situation.
Even though you are content with the way your guild operates, it seems pretty clear that some people weren't 100% happy with it. Your job now is to find out why and what, if anything, you should do about it.
Suspicions
In cases like this, I tend to suspect that the people who left wanted a more serious raiding environment. It's even possible that your raid leader was in on this scheme all along, and he is using his girlfriend to deflect blame. "She'll dump me if I don't go along with her"? Really? I don't buy it.
People who are raid leaders typically take raiding more seriously, even in a casual guild, and it could be that he was frustrated with some aspects of your raiding that he felt unable to fix. The way I imagine it, he was probably talking about these issues with the other players who shared his viewpoint, and he and the girlfriend finally decided to act on it. I could be way off base here, but that's the most common scenario for these situations.
About that poaching
Poaching is always a serious issue because it can have such far-flung negative consequences for your guild. When members see other members all leaving for the same guild, there is a strong temptation, if they are at all discontent, to join them.
You need to treat it as the serious problem that it is. Remove the girlfriend's toons immediately, along with her boyfriend's toons. It won't stop their poaching efforts, but at least you don't have to be a party to it. If they really intended to start an "alt guild," they wouldn't allow mains. Boot them.
Your bridge with that couple is already burnt -- I would never take anyone back who actively poached from my own guild. However, that doesn't mean you have to burn every bridge. Let other players' toons remain. It's possible that some of the people who left will realize that things were better in their former guild and return to the fold.
Damage control
As far as what you should say, there isn't much you can say that won't just make the situation worse. If you get angry, you'll just alienate people. If you get defensive, you'll just look weak. If you actively tell people they are welcome to return, then the people who haven't left might decide it's a risk-free choice to leave and see what the new guild is all about.
My advice is to be aggressive about finding out why people were unhappy and addressing those issues head on. Either make changes you think will improve the guild or decide that the people who left weren't a good fit and reaffirm what your guild stands for.
Assure your members that you and the other officers are taking all necessary steps to lead the guild toward a happy and productive future. Most importantly, stay positive! It may seem dire now, but you'll get past this as long as you don't panic.
/salute
Recently, Officers' Quarters has examined how strong new leadership can create a guild turnaround, the pitfalls of promising more than you can deliver, and lessons learned from Scott's own guild demise. Send your own guild-related questions and suggestions to scott@wowinsider.com.
Filed under: Officers' Quarters (Guild Leadership)
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 3)
Ammy Dec 12th 2011 9:11AM
A spineless man. He should have dumped her right then and there for trying to threaten him into leaving. If your girlfriend tries to do something like that just to get her way then she isn't worth your time...assuming that it really happened at least, maybe he really is just trying to blame her to get his old guild leader off of his back.
Killik Dec 12th 2011 9:33AM
It probably is just a convenient excuse for the RL to leave. "She'll dump me if I don't do what she says - you know what women are like, eh?"
Chris W Dec 12th 2011 10:17AM
Just wait til half the raiders quit raiding with the guild and just do LFR, there is a 130+ page thread about just that on the forums and blue post gushing over how happy they are.
Edymnion Dec 12th 2011 10:53AM
They should be. Raiding guilds are the bane of WoW. I have yet to see a serious raiding guild that wasn't full of elitist snobs that are convinced they are the holy chosen few "True WoW Players".
Just look at any thread complaining about how the filthy unwashed masses are getting to see end-game content for examples. I was happy when they announced that 10 and 25 man would drop the same gear, because it was a blow to the raiding guilds. I was ecstatic when I heard about the raid finder, because it was a major blow to the raiding guilds.
Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe there are raiding guilds out there that don't care what spec or build you're using. Maybe there are some out there that don't care if you will have to miss a raid or two. Maybe there are some that realize this is a game, not a job, and won't "fire you" for missing a day or not having absolute top of the line gear before you even join. But in my experience, they do, and they are quite snobbish about it. I've seen country clubs that are easier to get into than most "serious" raiding guilds.
shotiechan Dec 12th 2011 11:15AM
I highly doubt it's the actual truth in this scenario. It's much more likely that he's just trying not to burn all his bridges in the game, and deflecting some of the heat off of himself.
In which case, he's still a spineless man, but for entirely other reasons unrelated to his girlfriend "threatening" him. Like Scott points out, he has a lot to gain by lying about it right now, so it's the more likely situation, than his girlfriend actually threatening him and him complying.
Priestess Dec 12th 2011 11:15AM
@ Edy
Jeepers, what server are you on, and why on earth are you still there??? I've never even met a guild like that, and I and all my friends raid. If you like raiding but not your local guilds, why haven't you looked somewhere else? This game is supposed to be fun....
(Comment moved up from where it was surreptitiously misplaced.)
Chris W Dec 12th 2011 11:48AM
It would not be so sad had not blizzard destroyed raiding as it existed in Vanilla and BC when it was just fine and you didn't need to min/max, force players into cookie cutter builds, and all the recent BS.
Then to 'fix' the problem they created, they just make new problems.
antivyris Dec 12th 2011 12:08PM
@Edy
This always depresses me to see. It's like calling all liberals evil, or all conservatives evil. What you have a problem with is the vocal minority of raiding guilds. Please understand the 'hardcore' are not the majority, and I used quotes because typically, these are guilds with 75% progression raiders (the REAL hardcore), and 25% raiders who are good but complete human filth. They take them because of your very mindset, that all hardcore are elite so they accept it.
When, in reality, most of the REAL hardcore guilds out there, progression raiding guilds, not only are devoid of this filth, we constantly clean our boots off of it from the kicking.
Call them what they really are. Human filth, or any other colorful term you prefer. Usually when you find 'serious' guilds that don't accept members, those 25% have made it into officer ranks. As a raid lead in a progression raiding guild, we are always looking for good players, and never turn down potential apps.
Kylenne Dec 12th 2011 12:18PM
@anti: Tossing around the term "human filth" every other sentence isn't exactly disproving his point.
@Edy: I promise, the majority of raiding guilds really aren't like that. My guild takes progression seriously but we also have a lot of fun during raids and we have a solid group of social members too. Guilds full of jerks tend to be the squeaky wheel, sadly.
Cinarg Dec 12th 2011 2:29PM
@edy My guild is not like that, we don't care what spec you are, we just care if you're doing your job and pulling your weight. If you're putting out the dps and the heals we need we won't say anything. If not, we might put you on the sidelines for a bit but during that time we will gladly help you improve your game, give you advice, direct you to resources for your class and spec, run instances with you to help you get geared, etc.
vegemite Dec 12th 2011 2:38PM
@chris w
" It would not be so sad had not blizzard destroyed raiding as it existed in Vanilla and BC when it was just fine and you didn't need to min/max, force players into cookie cutter builds, and all the recent BS.
Then to 'fix' the problem they created, they just make new problems."
rose tinted glassed alert! raiding in vanilla was a million times worse than now, there were entire specs that were totally unviable ( druids had to be healers, warriors were the only tanks, paladins did blessings every 5 mins and afk'd apart from that and so on)
TBC raiding was the king of min/maxing and class stacking, in sunwell it was impossible to do without shamens and other classes were rotated in and out of raid for buffs( paladins etc) guilds forced players to respecc leatherworking for the over powered drums of battle and so on.
As much as people hate wrath it was the most accessible expansion ever and did get more people into the raiding game than every before.
at least now most specs are viable in normal raiding and the class stacking is only really prevalent in hard mode content.
now back to the article, the people who poached the guildies from their old guild have already burnt the bridges. I would have kicked their alts immediatly, asked them once as to their reasons for what they are doing then put them on ignore. to get the honest answer it would probably be best to ask some of the middle of the road people who left recently as to why they left and to throw a general ask out to everyone in the guild for feedback as to what issues you were having.
A casual guild that does high end raiding is virtually impossible to achieve without a large group of people who know each other very well for a long time. its cool if you can do it but mainly attempts to do this are not successful.
Chris W Dec 12th 2011 7:14PM
@vege
Before hard mode that was supposed to cater to 2% of players?
Before one player can wipe the raid mechanics were added to almost every fight?
Before 'normal' raiding mode was so hard that GC said at last blizzcon, People don't want to wipe 100 times to down a boss, we get that.
Before AOE dps was nerfed into the ground? (before max damage cap)
Before healer mana management was added as a second soft enrage to raiding?
Before all of those things, just about every raiding guild would progress and down bosses and be able to do it with handicapped guild members and friends and family who didn't have elite skills, and have a good time doing it.
Don't tell me about raiding in Vanilla, I was there, and I was an officer, class leader or a GM for 5 years, I know what it took and did not take to raid.
Conchshell Dec 12th 2011 9:19AM
Lolololololol.
I can't believe the GMs girlfriend would threaten him like that.
/dumpherlikegarbage
why do people put up with that bs
Baribal Dec 12th 2011 9:34AM
@ Conchshell
You didn't even read the article, did you.
Philster043 Dec 12th 2011 9:35AM
Scott was probably right, he was lying, just an excuse to keep himself from looking bad. I certainly would not stay with a girl who threatened me like that, much less do her bidding like I'm some lowly gutless servant.
Bynde Dec 12th 2011 1:04PM
Anyone who would use memberships or non-memberships in a guild as a reason for dumping someone else is either lying about the real reason for dumping someone else or has the maturity of a 7 year old and therefore too immature to be in a relationship, anyway.
Philster043 Dec 12th 2011 9:33AM
Agreed with Scott 100% on this.
Remove these guys ASAP! And don't be discouraged by this turn of events - if anything, just look at it as a sign that it's time to rebuild and recruit again. Every guild goes through that now and then, even the big ones.
anon e moose Dec 12th 2011 9:45AM
To Ammy and Conchshelly
You both wrong - she never said that to him at all. It all just a big screen to hide what THEY are doing, which is to basically steal as much of the raiding party off the original guild so they control it.
First you start and alt guild,,'for alts' then populate it with as many HC raiders as you can get, working on their discussed dissatifactions with the current leadership/guild. You promise them what they want, and after a few have left (esp if you and your other half artfully leave at different times - to 'show' the rest of the guild. Its basically saying 'well the raiders are leaving - leave with us now or get left behind'). Once 50% of the raiders have left, you have sucessfully gutted the guild you have left, which then prompts all bar the diehards to also jump ship.
To combat this I would ofc boot all alts/mains of the original people. (poaching is a big no no!). Then make a remark something like - well they will have no guild perks for QUITE some time now then (this makes people think a bit - as guild perks are significant nowadays). Tell you guild if they wish to leave for the new guild - they can, but dont expect reinvites as we want/need reliable people, not people who will jump ship rather than discuss any issues (like 'those' two) (this instils a fear that the new guild will not be discussing things, and be a monster guild, and there is no route back to the confortable old guild).
Then start recruiting - personally I would not be afraid to state in the message this is to replace two old members who have betrayed the guild. But then Im like that - I confront the issue head on - maybe not the best way - but it works for me.
Oh lastly to the members that have already jumped ship - I would offer them a ONE TIME shot at coming back (barring the original two - who I would mention to other guild leaders I know).
Lastly if you are the vindictive type - I would advise joining their guild on some toon (one they dont know about). Then be an arse. Wipe their raids, slag off the guild, be obnoxious in dungeons, ninja loot, corpse camp, wreck PVP BG's etc etc, that sort of thing - basically dragging their guild right down as they have done yours. But then I am a nasty piece of work when I am in a mood.
anon e moose Dec 12th 2011 9:49AM
Ok scrub the last bit - sorry angry about things IRL and this sort of betrayal gets my goat - but I wouldnt be that vindictive. I may SAY them but I would never DO them
Ostentaneous Dec 12th 2011 10:56AM
I'm often told I'm an angry person but I'm really not. I'm usually very calm when I block someone from cutting me off in traffic or flip them off when they honk. I'm not angry, I just think people should be punished for being assholes.