Officers' Quarters: Members turned poachers
It's bad enough for an officer when you start losing core raiders. As any long-time officer can tell you, though, things can always go from bad to worse. This week, a guild leader falls victim to a member's alt guild that suddenly turns into anything but.
Hey Scott--
We lost three of our core raiders yesterday, and may be losing more.
The girlfriend of the Raider Leader/MT in our casual 10m decided to start an "alt" guild. Not a big deal in its own right, myself and the other GM were a bit concerned about her underlying intentions; she'd been a core raider up until about three weeks prior to her founding this new guild. Myself and the other GM are not sure why the girlfriend stopped raiding with us; it was a choice of hers, and when we inquired as to whether everything was all right, we were always assured it was.
Co-GM and I noticed that to start her alt-guild, she'd recruited several members from our guild: mostly alts, but what concerned us was the handful of mains that left us to join the alt guild. Slightly annoyed that we, the leadership, hadn't been notified of her intentions, we spoke amongst ourselves with how to best handle this; if it's truly an alt guild, we should not have to worry about our ranks thinning. We weren't going to reprimand her, demote her, or remove her remaining character from the guild. We're not like that. She, along with her boyfriend, had been kind and helpful in the past.
Late the other night, I saw that the boyfriend, along with the another core raid dps who I'd been particularly close with, had left the guild to join up with the girlfriend's alt guild. I was crushed.
I did a quick /who to see if the boyfriend was on; he was and I asked why he'd left without saying anything. He pointed me to my main's mailbox where he explained that he was essentially threatened by his girlfriend: move his characters from our guild to hers, or else. He stated that he didn't want to create "RL drama" from things happening in-game, which I totally respect.
After all of that, I'm left wondering what I and the other GM should do moving forward. There may be a potential to lose more of our core members, as they have ties to people in both our guild and the "not-looking-so-much-like-an-alt-guild" guild. In the end, I want our people to have fun; if they aren't having fun with us, there may be a better fit out there. At the same time, I am confident saying we have an awesome guild, but I believe there will continue to be a concerted effort on behalf of the girlfriend to poach members from our ranks.
Do I tell people that if they'd like to go, they should go? Should I try to dig a lot deeper with the boyfriend/girlfriend to figure out if there were larger issues that lead to the defection, since thus far it's provided me with little insight? By no means are we a bleeding-edge content guild, but we are an extremely helpful, friendly and positive guild, which is an awesome environment to be in. Part of this feels like she's almost being vindictive about something, but for the life of me I can't think of what that something might be. Obviously, there's more to this story, but I'm trying to stay impartial and non-judgemental as I write this out in the hopes of getting some solid advice, and for the benefit of the progress of our guild.
Any advice would be appreciated.
Best,
-- Exodus Now
Hi, Exodus. You won't discover the key to this mystery by asking the girlfriend or your former raid leader. They have some rather compelling reasons to be dishonest with you at this point. If you want to find out what's really going on, you should ask the other people who took their mains out of your guild. They are much more likely to tell you what's really at the root of this situation.
Even though you are content with the way your guild operates, it seems pretty clear that some people weren't 100% happy with it. Your job now is to find out why and what, if anything, you should do about it.
Suspicions
In cases like this, I tend to suspect that the people who left wanted a more serious raiding environment. It's even possible that your raid leader was in on this scheme all along, and he is using his girlfriend to deflect blame. "She'll dump me if I don't go along with her"? Really? I don't buy it.
People who are raid leaders typically take raiding more seriously, even in a casual guild, and it could be that he was frustrated with some aspects of your raiding that he felt unable to fix. The way I imagine it, he was probably talking about these issues with the other players who shared his viewpoint, and he and the girlfriend finally decided to act on it. I could be way off base here, but that's the most common scenario for these situations.
About that poaching
Poaching is always a serious issue because it can have such far-flung negative consequences for your guild. When members see other members all leaving for the same guild, there is a strong temptation, if they are at all discontent, to join them.
You need to treat it as the serious problem that it is. Remove the girlfriend's toons immediately, along with her boyfriend's toons. It won't stop their poaching efforts, but at least you don't have to be a party to it. If they really intended to start an "alt guild," they wouldn't allow mains. Boot them.
Your bridge with that couple is already burnt -- I would never take anyone back who actively poached from my own guild. However, that doesn't mean you have to burn every bridge. Let other players' toons remain. It's possible that some of the people who left will realize that things were better in their former guild and return to the fold.
Damage control
As far as what you should say, there isn't much you can say that won't just make the situation worse. If you get angry, you'll just alienate people. If you get defensive, you'll just look weak. If you actively tell people they are welcome to return, then the people who haven't left might decide it's a risk-free choice to leave and see what the new guild is all about.
My advice is to be aggressive about finding out why people were unhappy and addressing those issues head on. Either make changes you think will improve the guild or decide that the people who left weren't a good fit and reaffirm what your guild stands for.
Assure your members that you and the other officers are taking all necessary steps to lead the guild toward a happy and productive future. Most importantly, stay positive! It may seem dire now, but you'll get past this as long as you don't panic.
/salute
Filed under: Officers' Quarters (Guild Leadership)
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Reader Comments (Page 2 of 3)
Nina Katarina Dec 12th 2011 9:53AM
If I were a member of that guild I'd be real hesitant about making that jump. The girlfriend already showed that she's underhanded. What's going to happen when loot drama erupts? What if her class gets the next legendary? In no way would I trust her to be fair and evenhanded.
Gimmlette Dec 12th 2011 10:03AM
Regarding Scott's comments under damage control: I wouldn't be openly talking about this. If someone comes to an officer and inquires, that's when the situation needs to be addressed with that person. Assure them that the officers are on top of the situation and then ask that person what issues they see with raiding or with the guild in general. It could be those who left did so for something totally unrelated to raiding.
If someone raises the issue in guild chat, then it can be addressed, very simply. "We've analyzed what were the issues these people had and we've decided 'x' needs to be changed to make us better." Or, "we've looked at why they left and, after long discussion, feel what we do here is just the way we like it. They were probably going to leave at some point anyway. We wish them well and now back to our progression." Always tell members your door is open for anyone to bring concerns to you over anything. And then expect no one will come to you or your officers with a complaint. You almost never know why someone leaves unless they do it in a drama-filled manner.
I'd also think strongly about kicking the alts of anyone who left to be in that guild. Kicking the two conspirators is absolutely the right thing to do, but if you leave alts of the people who left in your guild, they can just ask "x" to whisper "y" and it's poaching nonetheless. Once you've talked to them, I'd say, "we wish you well but as policy, we're going to be removing your alts from our guild. If you desire to come back, please talk to me about returning." Make sure your officers are instructed that they can't reinvite any of these people without talking to you first. You don't need to log on and see "J" has returned and you didn't know about it.
People who jump ship have issues with the guild that you probably didn't know about. Or maybe you did but what they want is not what you offer. It's trying and tough, especially if you lose tanks and healers. But, look at it as an opportunity to let people who might not have filled rolls come forward for a try. I've discovered some great people who stepped forward when we needed a spot filled.
Terratree Dec 12th 2011 10:10AM
I'm worried that this might be guild on a server of mine that I just transferred to today. I just got to Frostmourne (Oceanic realm) and I certainly hope that I haven't joined said guild.
The GM is a girl and I find her to be really nice and they formed recently. It probably isn't correct what I'm saying hopefully but just wondering.
Josh_da_machine56 Dec 12th 2011 10:14AM
Also they have said to have been not happy with their old guild and decided to leave and form their new guild. They were core raiders.
mordred Dec 12th 2011 10:10AM
There was an episode of Ally McBeal where the Portia De Rossi character left and tried to poach the firm's clients.
mordred Dec 12th 2011 10:11AM
Or remember when at the end of X-Men First Class, Magneto recruited Mystique from Charles Xavier even though she was his sister? That is also another example.
Schadenfreude Dec 12th 2011 10:54AM
I would take a long, hard look at your own guild, especially since jumping ship isn't the quick and easy affair it once was. If I left my small guild to start a completely new one, this would be a total loss of all guild perks, guild bank, repair fund etc. People aren't going to leave a high-level guild (I assume yours is fairly well along, we only have about 12 people and we're nearly 25) on a whim. Something made it more worthwhile for them to join a level 1 guild than to stay in their old, high-level one.
Priestess Dec 12th 2011 11:06AM
As always, Scott has very good advice. The only thing I would disagree with is this:
"As far as what you should say, there isn't much you can say that won't just make the situation worse."
Personally, I think you *should* say something, especially if you remove the characters of the couple in question. If I were in that position, I would tell the guy (no point talking to the girl anymore IMO) that I'm going to remove all of their characters from my guild since I can't have them actively taking players from our guild and still be part of it, and tell him I'm sorry to see him go and I always appreciated him. (Assuming I did.) I'd probably wish him good luck in that relationship of his. (And not mention that if his "reason" is real I feel sorry for him.)
Then, assuming people are online, I would tell them something like "Hey guys, X and Y have decided to start their own guild, and in order to best keep the peace around here, I'll be removing their characters. They're aware of this, and I've wished them the best in their new adventures. If anyone has any questions, I'd be happy to answer them, just whisper me."
/gkick (Insert all necessary toons here)
"Ok, that's it. Sorry for the disruption. Anyone need anything while I'm on? I'll be around a bit longer before I go _________."
Now, granted, I'm the approachable, talkative, social relations person in my guild, so people would know I'd done a lot behind the scenes and not freak out once I'd said something like that. I would probably get a fair amount of whispers and have budgeted a good half hour for private discussions.
I would also probably spend some time, either before or after that, trying to find out what's really going on with those who are leaving, especially if there was someone involved that I was close to. "Hey, you know I want you to enjoy playing, so I support you playing wherever you like, I'm just curious if you can give me any insight about what's going on here and what I might be able to do to make things go better for everyone, no matter where they end up playing."
Scott didn't address it, but I'd be willing to bet the girl is seriously pressuring people, and that the boyfriend is not an entirely unwilling accomplice. If I can find that suspicion to be true or false, it would modify my address to the guild. If it was true, I'd probably add something like "If anyone is being bothered by those who have left, I'm here to back you up however I can. I want everyone to enjoy playing however and wherever they want to without being pestered by others." If something else is going on, I'd make some other approriate modifications.
I don't know if these guild leaders have that kind confidence and trust from their guild members. I hope they do. If so, I think saying something would definitely be in line, to assure people you know what's going on and that you're handling it in a timely and appropriate manner. This OP definitely sounds like they are trying to do just that, and I wish them the best as they manage this tough situation.
Priestess Dec 12th 2011 11:11AM
@ Edy
Jeepers, what server are you on, and why on earth are you still there??? I've never even met a guild like that, and I and all my friends raid. If you like raiding but not your local guilds, why haven't you looked somewhere else? This game is supposed to be fun....
Priestess Dec 12th 2011 11:12AM
Stupid comment system. Soon™ is taking way too long, AOL.
Priestess Dec 12th 2011 11:12AM
Fail day is fail. Can't even reply to my own failure. /slap
Edymnion Dec 12th 2011 12:09PM
Lol, go back to bed and get up on the other side this time. Maybe you'll have better luck. =P
shotiechan Dec 12th 2011 11:14AM
I agree with Scott. Remove them, and as frustrating as it may be to not get answers, I honestly would just let it drop.
The boyfriend probably tossed an easy excuse out so he wouldn't look bad, but the truth is, he still bailed out, along with a lot of other people-which says that they at the very least aren't a good fit in your guild, and that's fine, it happens. But it's best to move on.
"People aren't going to leave a high-level guild (I assume yours is fairly well along, we only have about 12 people and we're nearly 25) on a whim. Something made it more worthwhile for them to join a level 1 guild than to stay in their old, high-level one."
This comment earlier by Schadenfreude is pretty spot-on. People don't want to leave an established guild with lots of perks to go join a level 1 guild with nothing unless they already feel they have nothing to lose by doing so. It usually indicates a very serious problem.
Eirik Dec 12th 2011 9:52PM
"The boyfriend probably tossed an easy excuse out..."
The problem here is that tossing an easy excuse out is the min-max answer to the social situation. Maximum excuse, minimum drama. Which mean that we STILL have no way of proving it one way or the other, but have great temptation to make that assumption unproven.
Pata Dec 12th 2011 11:45AM
I'm the lone officer of a small and intimate casual guild. Me and our GM/RL dealt with our own exodus at the beginning of Cataclysm where we lost 6/10 of our core raiders. That took us six months to recover from. Granted, the situation wasn't nearly as insidious as Exodus'. From my experiences, strong leadership will be required to move forward, so I would recommend the following:
1) Remove the alts of the defecting members. I'm completely fine with people leave a guild, but only as long as it's all above the board. The situation you're in is anything but. These alts have the potential to become a cancer, and generally such disregard for the guild and its members shouldn't be tolerated.
2) Find out the reason for the departures. Obviously, there was something wrong with the guild for so many people to leave. Fix what you can without compromising your core values. Leadership, loot, and organizational structures can be easily changed. However, don't become a guild you aren't. If people want a hardcore guild, don't become one just because they want it. Reaffirm to the remaining members what type of guild are you.
3) Engage the remaining members and make smart choices. Moving forward, you're going to need a strong group to get through this. By allowing people to help out (even in small amounts), you're going to give those who remain a real sense of ownership and pride in their guild. Also, when recruiting you have to be discerning. Given the situation you may want to bolster your numbers quickly, but then you risk repeating of everything that's already happened. Take your time to pick people who mesh well and share your guild's values. In the end, you'll be happy you took the time!
While this situation is terrible, it can become a great opportunity for you! Fix the nagging issues your guild has, recruit people who genuinely want what your guild has to offer, and create a strong tight-knit group. You'll become a stronger and wiser guild because of all of this. I wish you the best of luck! :)
Elzam Dec 12th 2011 12:07PM
My two copper:
1) Keep any remaining alts of those who hopped over. People can whisper just as easily from another guild as they can in your own. Of course, remove all the alts of the GF and the former-RL if they still exist. The moment anyone gets close to poaching behavior, that alt is gone.
2) Be honest with your remaining raiders. Don't ever say "Dunno" or shrug your shoulders when someone asks what's up. With this being the Holiday season, people are going to be in and out constantly in availability. You will have to explain it more than once, and each time make sure they come off as the unreasonable people. Explain how it began as an alt guild and they spontaneously starting poaching. Don't be vulgar, but be harsh and play the victim.
3) Persevere. If your raiders get more than a week dropped from this sort of situation, depending on how flighty they are you might have to kiss your raiding guild goodbye. Supplement with trusted friends of raiders if you have to do so to get the numbers.
iceveiled Dec 12th 2011 12:16PM
The girlfriend threatened me is the lamest excuse I've ever heard. Unless it's true, then good luck to that guy for being in a relationship with a manipulative c*nt.
jaggard Dec 12th 2011 12:38PM
It's so painfully obvious which of you have functioning relationships and which of you don't.
Bynde Dec 12th 2011 1:09PM
Well, don't leave us high and dry.
Which one of use do, and which ones don't?
Killik Dec 12th 2011 2:07PM
Please! Is my marriage in trouble?? D: